Please Help with Iso construction!!! - Trenton, NJ

Hey Guys, First let me start by saying I appreciate in advance any help or advice that anyone can give me to shed light on this situation. Ok, so basically I am in a situation where we are trying to build a control room with an iso booth large enough for recording drums. Also want to track vocals, mic amps, so on and so forth. It would be great to have as much isolation as possible. Now all the equipment is mine as well as the reputation (good or bad) that comes with running a recording studio. The reason that this is important is because I wanted to make it clear that I have certainly done my share of reasearching to death many of different details associated with this task. Now I know I havent even come close to looking at all of the information out there, as there is so much; but I know enough to know that I DONT KNOW. The situation is that while its my equipment and Im doing the work, its somebody elses building and money that is funding this process. So its a very frustrating process because they arent sound guys and for the life of me I cant get them to see that you cant just throw stuff up as you go with a regular contractor who has never done any kind of studio work. Kind of a rock and a hard place. So basically I am just trying to get this to not be a disaster. They have already sheetrocked and put up insulation in the room, but as I told them from the beginning it was not going to be soundproof. So now the work is done, and they are finally starting to listen; as anybody who knows even a small amount about sound proofing could have guessed. So now its halfway in, and with a limited budget I just need to get as sound proof of an iso booth for the drums and everything else as possible. They said they can deal with hearing my noise all day so Im not too worried about the walls they have already done, because Im in a pretty isolated area of the building. They plan on using sheetrock they have already bought, as well as wooden studs, and I guess fiberglass. 1. So basically my main question is should they treat the walls that are already up as a single leaf already, and just use on more leaf when constructing the booth, or do two more seperate leafs for the booth. I really appreciate if anybody is still reading, lol, sorry for the long-windedness; Im just trying to give as much info as possible and they want to start building the booth tomorrow. This is really making my head spin, I told them to higher a designer and get it all professionally done, but you know ego's, a bunch of "Oh this is no problem, we will just put up a bunch of walls, if it doesnt work, will just put up more." Man, I just want to make music, and have a isolated area where I dont have to worry about noise. So I will post up all the pictures that I have taken, plus the sketchup I tried to make of the room. There is a picture with a cross section of the materials they used under the sheetrock. I also posted couple pics of what the room looked like before they started. The walls in the corner are brick and concrete underneath. Than some foam (i know!!) studs, compressed insulation and sheetrock. Everything right on top of the other no air in there or anything. :roll: The corner with the 2x4 is where the booth is planned to go. I guess they put them there just as a guide, Im sorry Im really not a construction guy. I just want to give them enough info to be able to finish this, cause they just have NO IDEA at all. I suppose I will be orientated up against the long diagonal part, with some type of window there, but not sure if that will do more harm than good in this situation. I definitely expect to have to all kinds of work to do dealing with the room modes, and response of the room, especially low freq. Plus its an asymmetrical room, so I am having issues with that too. But like I said, I am trying to deal with this iso phase as they are trying to do that asap, and I would really like to be able to use this room after all the work, however bad. I have already printed them out so many pages on frequency response, resonance, conduction, flanking, absorbtion, etc., you know the whole deal, as I have been trying to do this for a while, but its hard trying to tell 'know it all' building owner and contractors anything. So thank you for anyone who is still with me, and PLEASE HELP!!! :?: P.S. Sorry if I didnt give all of the required information, I tried to :)

Remaining pics, Im not sure how to post the sketchup file as it is too large...Thx

Hi BlendedFusion. Please check the post about things you should do when you first start posting here. Just a friendly reminder. There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post (click here). Having said that, reading over your first post all I can say is: OUCH! I hear your pain and frustration. It looks like you have a real tough situation to deal with, and it isn't going to get any better, by the sounds of it. Not a good place to be. Let's take it bit by bit:

we are trying to build a control room with an iso booth large enough for recording drums.

OK, so you need two rooms: Control Room (CR) and mini live room (LR). Got it. But your photos seem to show more than two rooms, and your diagram seems to be different! Please can you post just a basic floor plan showing the walls, rooms and spaces as they are right now, what each one is going to be used for, and which space you have left over to put your two rooms in. And with drums, you are going to need lots of isolation.

but I know enough to know that I DONT KNOW.

Cool! Then you are in the same boat as all of us here! recognizing that is the first step... :)

they arent sound guys and for the life of me I cant get them to see that you cant just throw stuff up as you go with a regular contractor who has never done any kind of studio work.

OUCH! and OUCH again! You really need to sit down with them and get them to understand that what they are doing now is very similar to just taking large wads of hundred dollar bills, and flushing them down the toilet. Maybe that will get through, because that is exactly what they are doing. It sounds like most of what they have done already needs to be torn out and done again, if you hope to actually have a workable studio in there.

They have already sheetrocked and put up insulation in the room,

Unless they did that as fully decoupled MSM walls, then they just flushed all that cash down the drain. It is most likely of no use at all, and at least some of it will have to come down. depending on how they did it, you might be able to get away with just taking the drywall off one side of the studs. Hopefully that will work.

They plan on using sheetrock they have already bought, as well as wooden studs, and I guess fiberglass.

The materials are fine, assuming that it is 2x4 studs, 5/8 sheetrock, and that the fiberglass has a density or around 3 psf. If so, then they can us that. If not, then send it back to the store and get the right stuff. The most important part is that the sheetrock must be 5/8. Anything thinner is worthless for good isolation.

So basically my main question is should they treat the walls that are already up as a single leaf already,

Nope. If that is normal construction (studs with drywall on each side) the it is already 2-leaf: Which is why it needs to come down, or at least to have one leaf taken off it. Money. Toilet. Fluuuushhhhh!

or do two more seperate leafs for the booth.

Bad idea! That would make FOUR leaves! :shock: That would most likely make your isolation WORSE than it is already in the low end.

we will just put up a bunch of walls, if it doesnt work, will just put up more."

They need to understand that putting up MORE walls will make the isolation WORSE not better! They need to understand that acoustics is NOT intuitive, and things like adding extra walls really can make things worse, while taking down stuff that is already there can actually make it BETTER. Until they get that idea, they will continue on the well-worn path from the bank teller's window to the toilet. FluussshhhH!!!

Plus its an asymmetrical room, so I am having issues with that too.

:shock: Then you don0t have a control room! By definition, a CR needs to symmetrical, at the very least for the front half. No symmetry means no control room. You can't do a good mix that translates well if you don't have a good sound stage, good stereo imaging, identical paths for both ears, etc. That should be your first priority: Plan to get the front half of your CR symmetrical. If not, then you already know where this is going.... fluuussshhh!!!! In your post, you show a picture "StudioPhase1-3 2.jpg" with a couple of windows in it. That looks like a really good starting point for a usable space. It has symmetry for the front half, and looks big enough to work for a CR. You have brick and concrete, and good height. I'd start with that one. Any chance you can get it? It would make a good CR. So where would the LR go, if that can be your CR? - Stuart -

Hey Stuart, Thank you so much for the reply, I really appreciate it. Sorry for the format I had read the post you linked to, but guess I was missing a couple things. Anyways, as you can see this is a mess!!! Unfortunately, these guys just decided to do whatever they felt like. It sucks because now basically the only choice I have is to try and deal with this for now, or walk away from the whole thing. Financially I'm really not in a position to go anywhere else, so I HAVE to make this work for now, until I'm able to get my own building. So, I guess really I just want to know where is the best mix position to sit in the room. Obviously I understand that things are less than ideal, as has already been pointed out, but I just need to do what I can for now. So the only way I really see having any resemblance of symmetry is to have my back to the booth, and face the long wall at the bottom of the sketch. I would really appreciate if anybody could chime in there .02 cents. Kind of in a crap spot, as I know how ridiculous this is but gotta make due for now. Any help would be awesome, thx. P.S. Sorry for the bad drawings, I suck at sketchup.

worst case - add some additional mass to the walls on where they exist and make sure any new ones are properly decoupled and use a 2 leaf approach. better - rip down the offending drywall and put in a second leaf all there and then all around the booth to create the proper isolation (or as much as you're going to get given the other issues). what about your CR? it's nowhere to be seen on the diagram and the photos don't explain it.

it's nowhere to be seen on the diagram and the photos don't explain it.

Glenn, I think it's the light green weird polygonal shape area... :shock: :!:

So, I guess really I just want to know where is the best mix position to sit in the room.

There IS no best place to sit in that room! All of them are equally bad, as is. The problem is that you need symmetry, at least for the front half of your room, but there just isn't any place you can do that without installing additional walls, or tearing down some that are already there! The LEAST offensive place for your desk is probably facing the 10'3" wall, as that kind of almost looks vaguely symmetrical with a hint of a reasonable space behind you, but it is far from ideal. What kind of equipment do you have? What monitors are you using? How big is your desk? - Stuart -

Yes unfortunately Glenn, Stuart is right; the oddly shaped light green area is (the other room). I don't really wanna call it a control room because clearly it isn't. I do realize what I am asking is odd; however LEAST OFFENSIVE is basically what I'm hoping for. That is sad I know, but I am really trying to make the best out of a screwed up situation. Equipment wise I have- 003 rack, focusrite octopre, couple outboard comps (dbx160, pro vla, etc..), great river mp500 pre, monitors are JBL 2325, all running into macbook pro i7 8g. Various plugins. About 12 mics (shure, rode, akg, ev, etc...) Also couple guitars, controllers and other assorted stuff. Also i sometimes check mixes on my PA speakers which are currently in the room I'm in now. (JBL MS105, EV S181 sub) A very modest setup I know, but it gets the job done. The desk im using is 69"l x 39"w x 30"h. The 10'3 wall did look to be the best place in that room but I wasn't sure because the door is right next to it. And NOTHING about this room is ideal, LOL. I kinda have to laugh at the situation to keep from crying. The guys who built it aren't wanting to rip much down, or put much else up because they swear its a masterpiece. I guess if I could figure something that wasn't a huge ordeal, maybe, but my head hurts so much from even thinking about it. So I definitely appreciate the responses a lot guys, I was hoping that I would find somebody who had went through a similar horrible experience in a bad room that can share some light at the end of the tunnel. Like I said I am going to have to deal with this until something better comes along.

How about posting that SKP that you made of the room, so folks here can play with it, and see if something pops up. 1. Can you tear down any of what is already built? 2. Can you build new walls, if necessary? - Stuart -

Ok cool, here is the skp. I think they would be cool with taking stuff down, but not sure how much more they are willing too put up.

Great! If they will let you move one wall, then this is the way to go: Basically, you just straighten out that weird angled wall, and then flip your rooms, so that your control room becomes the rectangular one (brownish) and the live room (or "booth" if you prefer) becomes the non-rectangular part (light green). That is EXACTLY what you want for both room! Best all round! Check with your money guys, and if you can do that, then let us know and we'll figure out proper placement of your gear in that room, the best position for the door, etc. THIS will work! I sure hope that you can convince them to do that. :) You actually have a fighting chance if they let you do that! - Stuart -

Awesome, that looks very close to what I originally asked them to do, but if I remember correctly they told me it makes no sense to walk into the isolation area first. So incredibly stupid these guys man. I will ask them first tomorrow. Here are some pictures of what they just put up.

but if I remember correctly they told me it makes no sense to walk into the isolation area first.

Well, it isn't ideal, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than not having a usable control room at all!

Here are some pictures of what they just put up.

What a waste! That doesn't even make any sense as a booth. Why would you put a ceiling that is so low when you have plenty of height? :shock: - Stuart -

OMG! dude, this has to be re-done. while its not ideal to walk into the isolation room first, its better to have the mix environment proper as shown by Stuart than to kill off both the investment made to date and the future sub-standard products you're likely to produce because of the poor listening environment (lose-lose really). if you're seriously concerned about the entry, use a small hallway, it will also provide a place to hang the gold and platinum record awards :).

Hey thanks for all the help guys. After a very heated discussion this morning I have decided to give up trying to reason with these people. I really regret getting involved with these people, and if I could go back six months I would definitely make a different decision. But of course hindsight is 20/20. So now I have this horrendous creation that is of no use. :(

That really is sad. There just isn't much that you can hope to do with that space as it is. I mean, you could set up your desk as I suggested, and throw some treatment around, but that space is so badly shaped, sized and isolated that I can't see the results being very good. - Stuart -

Ya I figured as much, the really messed up part is they swear I'm over reacting and the room is great. So I will set up my desk as you suggested, and bide my time till I can get my own place. It sucks because frankly its quite embarrassing. Any real musician is going to come in and think I designed the place and that I am oblivious to how bad it is. Is it wrong that I am hoping a lightning bolt comes from the sky and incinerates the building taking with it any memory of this disaster. Just kidding, but in all seriousness its of course my reputation on the line, and making music in here is going to be like swimming with lead boots on. <sigh> I guess you live and you learn...