Limiting sound escape from an ALL WOODEN SHED.

My name is Vinny, I'm 28 and I live in Florida. I've played the drums :shot: for around 16 years now, in different bands, and am interested in setting up a semi-professional rehearsal/recording room. Here is my situation: My drums are currently stored at my parents house, (approx half an hour from my house), in a shed where my band practices. Everyone in the development has 1 acre lots, so the loudness isn't quite a huge issue (we just don't practice to late). I plan on moving the shed to my property for convenience purposes and was hoping to eliminate the time constraints when rehearsing or recording (in regards to the loudness). I live on a half acre lot and my property is backed up to a senior citizen mobile home park :D (I think you see where I'm going with this). The shed will actually be quite some distance from the mobile homes. *Below is a diagram to clarify shed placement. The inside dimensions of the shed are as follows: Length - 19'2, Width - 11'2. The ceiling is 6'8 at the walls and 8' in the center. There are two small windows and a wide door. (I forgot to measure the door and windows, but I planned on closing them in any way. I'll explain my plans below.) The walls and ceiling were constructed with 2x4's (I believe they are 16 OC) and the floor with 2x6's (23 OC). The outside is finished with aluminum siding. I've been rehearsing in this shed for the passed 10 years. When we first purchased it, I ran the wiring and insulated it with r13, then covered the frame with 1/2" plywood. The floor was finished with 3/4" plywood. I covered the walls, ceiling and floor with carpet and pad. At the time I did not do any research at all on so called "soundproofing techniques", I treated the project like I was building a regular room. Now, here I am 10 years later, with a little more knowledge, and was hoping for some advice to achieve the best control of the sound. I have not had the chance to pick up a decibel meter so I couldn’t tell you exactly how loud we are, however I do plan on getting one in the near future. We primarily use the shed to rehearse, but we also picked up some recording equipment and record once in a while. (It was cheaper then going into the studio, and the recordings have come out very well) :thu: . Now for my ideas. I was planning on pulling off all the plywood on the inside and turning the insulation around (paper side against the aluminum siding, possibly OSB against the siding first, inserted between the 2x4 framing). I was going to leave the inner side of the framing open then build another frame inside the shed (the whole m-a-m system, leaving the inside of the two walls bare, no drywall just insulation and air). I would install two layers of drywall inside the shed. I was going to buy two steel doors placing them on the side of the shed, an in swing and an out swing on each leaf. (I'm not very well educated on this whole process, just did a little research, so bare with me if I'm not making any sense). I'm a little skeptical about this because of the space limitations, as mentioned earlier the shed is 11'2 x 19'2 x 8, on the inside. I was going to do the same for the ceiling (resting it on the inner walls). I'm not quite sure what to do with the floor. I tried researching the forums but haven't found anything about wood floors, only concrete slabs. I was tossing around the idea of two layers of drywall and maybe concrete backer board, but I really have no idea if this would help at all. Another issue I'm unsure of how to address is the air conditioner. I was thinking of building some sort of box around the outside with an opening at the bottom, but not really sure. Also, I was thinking of building a small 10x10 room off the back of the shed, maybe even a little smaller. (If I do, I was going to build it with 6x6 studs with an inner wall (2x4's) as the rest of the shed will be constructed. This is just an idea right now, not a definite plan. I'm not sure if the room would be for my drums to be placed or if it would be more beneficial to have a separate room for the recording equipment. Again to reiterate, this shed is primarily for rehearsals. As for my budget...... I was hoping to stay around $1500.00. Less would be ideal, but I know the reality is $1500.00 is probably not enough.... :( I am open to spend more if it means accomplishing better sound isolation. (Just going to take longer to complete). There are pictures below of the shed, site plan, and a floor plan with the extra room idea. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. **Don't mind the John and Yoko Picture on the wall...LOL Below is the projected floor plan if I add a small room (in red). I didn't add the A/C because I'm unsure of how to address that issue. I'm almost wondering if I'd have room to run a duct in the ceiling. Though I'm not quite sure how that would work out.

"I have not had the chance to pick up a decibel meter so I couldn’t tell you exactly how loud we are, however I do plan on getting one in the near future." Somewhere in the neighborhood of 110. "Now for my ideas. I was planning on pulling off all the plywood on the inside and turning the insulation around (paper side against the aluminum siding, possibly OSB against the siding first, inserted between the 2x4 framing). I was going to leave the inner side of the framing open then build another frame inside the shed (the whole m-a-m system, leaving the inside of the two walls bare, no drywall just insulation and air). I would install two layers of drywall inside the shed. I was going to buy two steel doors placing them on the side of the shed, an in swing and an out swing on each leaf. (I'm not very well educated on this whole process, just did a little research, so bare with me if I'm not making any sense)." While your budget isn't much the thing working against you right now is the wooden frame...specifically the floor. Your idea about inverting the insulation to place the retarder against the exterior is ill advised and wins you nothing :) Matter of fact, a double frame in this wooden framed structure is not going to gain you much at all since the floor is the weak link and a direct flanking path. If I were doing this, I guess I would have to take the carpet and anything off the wall that had no mass, and install mass directly to the existing wall, get a solid core wood door and make damn certain I get a good seal on the perimeter of the door. Same with the ceiling, just add mass directly to it. The addition you want to add needs to be changed so that you have more of a rectangle and less of a square, maybe go more for a deeper length but as small as it is, might not make much difference one way or the other, deeper or wider, but rectangular is better than a square.

Check for floor construction here http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm

shanesix wrote:

Check for floor construction here http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm

You can check it, but it doesn't apply to this shed. A wooden floor built on top of a wooden floor is not going to make your isolation better. A wooden floor on top of a concrete floor might help, but even that is essentially adding less mass to an already well massed and damped piece of concrete, which is what that picture represents. An alternative would be to install 703 rigid type insulation or something comparable to it, on the existing floor and install several layers of dense substrate, MDF, 3/4" OSB, etc. The rigid insulation will completely decouple the new floor which is going to be a better procedure than another framed floor assembly on top of an existing wood floor assembly that will allow vibration a path in either direction. It is too easy to short circuit these things.

^Question then.. What if mass is added to the existing floor,then a floating on top of that?

yes.

shanesix wrote:

^Question then.. What if mass is added to the existing floor,then a floating on top of that?

If I did this project, I would either add mass directly to the floor and may consider using a 2" inch rigid insulation on top of that and add mass to that as well. But I wouldn't build a frame on the floor since the properties of the existing wood will not give you the results that you may think they will.

Thanks for the quick response. This forum is excellent!!

If I were doing this, I guess I would have to take the carpet and anything off the wall that had no mass, and install mass directly to the existing wall, get a solid core wood door and make damn certain I get a good seal on the perimeter of the door.

When you say to add more mass are you referring to between the frame or on the surface? I read over Sharward's studio build, he layered OSB and Drywall between the studs. Would you recommend I do the same? As for the floor, is concrete backerboard reccomended, or just stick to different sized drywall, OSB and a rigid insulation? My other major concern is the A/C, any suggestions there?? Thanks again, you guys are great! Vinny

Sharwoods build was a carport, concrete slab so things that might help in that build may not help you. For instance, let's bring the wooden structure back into view...it is one big flanking path. Me, I would not open any walls but would install mass (OSB/sheetrock, etc) directly to the existing walls/boundaries AFTER getting all the carpet and other materials that have no mass, get it back down to the original sheetrock is what I am talking about. Now this presupposes several things, one is how bad do you want it? If you are highly motivated then you can cut the existing sheetrock out, remove the wall insulation and re-install the sheetrock you cut out to the exterior wall( back side of the sheathing) Resilient channel on the walls and ceiling (after removal of the interior existing sheetrock would be a better option than installing another framed wall coupled to the floor and most likely back to the ceiling as well...making yet another flanking path (the new wooden wall) that defeats what you are trying to do, which is to isolate that thang:) Motivation, money and skill, these things are part and parcel to any kind of job as you are aware of I am certain. Me, adding mass directly to the walls and floor and ceiling that is what I would do. Just a little for instance, if you added one layer of 1/2" OSB and two layers or 5/8" rock to the existing walls, you just lost, let's see...carry the one, ah, 3 and 1/2" of floor space in an already tight room. So adding a framed wall, to both sides of this already tight room, wow, closer to 12 " +.

i'm just undertaking a very similar project. im putting 2 layers of dry wall on the inside of the walls between the studs, then i think i might plaster that just to add some more mass cheaply, then rc, then 2 plaster boards. as for the floor i'm struggling too. many ideas floating around, but does anyone think there is any merit to screeding the wooden floor with cement (seperated by plastic sheeting?), as well as the dense insulation and mdf layers??

tomugli wrote:

i'm just undertaking a very similar project. im putting 2 layers of dry wall on the inside of the walls between the studs, then i think i might plaster that just to add some more mass cheaply, then rc, then 2 plaster boards. as for the floor i'm struggling too. many ideas floating around, but does anyone think there is any merit to screeding the wooden floor with cement (seperated by plastic sheeting?), as well as the dense insulation and mdf layers??

Triple leaf! No good. Andre

can you clarify avare? the sheet rock directly fixed (screwed) to the inside of the external shed cladding between the studs (ie with no gap between external shed material and first 2 plaster board layers), thus creating one leaf, followed by insulation then rc hanging off the studs (3by 2s giving about 60mm air gap) to which 2 sheets of drywall are then fixed, making leaf 2. apologies if i've missed something fundamental :oops: cheers, tom

tomugli wrote:

can you clarify avare? the sheet rock directly fixed (screwed) to the inside of the external shed cladding between the studs (ie with no gap between external shed material and first 2 plaster board layers), thus creating one leaf, followed by insulation then rc hanging off the studs (3by 2s giving about 60mm air gap) to which 2 sheets of drywall are then fixed, making leaf 2. apologies if i've missed something fundamental

You clarified it. You are adding directly to the outside leaf with the 2 layers of plasterboard. I AM THE ONE that missed that. Andre

as for the floor i'm struggling too. many ideas floating around, but does anyone think there is any merit to screeding the wooden floor with cement (seperated by plastic sheeting?), as well as the dense insulation and mdf layers??

Tom, I was tossing around the idea of using concrete backer board on the floor, (similar to that used to install tile on top of), seperated with 703 rigid type insulation as 'xSpace' recommended, then two layers of drywall and one layer of OSB. I'm not sure but I would think the Backer board would add some type of value... Perhaps a senior member could advise?? Can someone recommend a glue,.... Does it have to be GG. or would a liquid nail be adequate being the rigid insulation would decouple things anyway.

Can someone recommend a glue,.... Does it have to be GG. or would a liquid nail be adequate being the rigid insulation would decouple things anyway.

it's quite common to see silicone used as a glue in my trade (joinery). has anyone tride/ had any success with a high modulus silicone as a cheaper alternative to gg? it will maintain a rubbery texture when cured and form a strong bond. (i'd like to test this myself soon)

You clarified it. You are adding directly to the outside leaf with the 2 layers of plasterboard. I AM THE ONE that missed that

thanks avare, i'm much relieved. cheers, tom

tomugli wrote:

Can someone recommend a glue,.... Does it have to be GG. or would a liquid nail be adequate being the rigid insulation would decouple things anyway.

it's quite common to see silicone used as a glue in my trade (joinery). has anyone tride/ had any success with a high modulus silicone as a cheaper alternative to gg? it will maintain a rubbery texture when cured and form a strong bond. (i'd like to test this myself soon)

You clarified it. You are adding directly to the outside leaf with the 2 layers of plasterboard. I AM THE ONE that missed that

thanks avare, i'm much relieved. cheers, tom

Silicone is not adequate for a constrained layer dampening system. As a cheaper alternative, I do not know it that information exists, cheaper being the operative word. While silicone has it's uses...it is not recommended as the shearing element within a CLD. Folks have been making speaker cabinets for decades using 30 pound felt as the interior shearing element in a supposed constrained layer damping system. It is not a true cld but a dry friction damping (Douglas Thorby, "Structural Dynamics and Vibration in Practice", ISBN: 978-0-7506-8002-8) As to using silicone as a glue, in a profession that has little to no interest in the acoustic value of an assembly, you are kind of correct in that it is common place. The difference is that a 100% silicone is more expensive so way more often then not, a latex type will do the job.