Space challenged basic studio in Switzerland

Hello, I've been referenced to this forum by peeps over that studio-central.com. Here is the thread I posted over there. RECORDING Current: - I record live voice - I record live acoustic guitar - I record MIDI everything else (for now) For the studio: - same as above Future: I'm thinking bass and electric guitars. EQUIPMENT Current: - TASCAM US-122L - Keyboard (MIDI) - Reaper on my basic DAW - Acoustic guitar - Headphones For the studio: - add speakers (have to research those as well, basic suggestions considering room size are welcomed) Future: I'm thinking basic electronic drum set (hihat, snare, 3 cymbals, 3 toms, 1 bass) ROOM Placement: - It's in the basement with only a small underground window (top left) - The orange walls could be moved somewhat to arrange for better acoustics - To the bottom is the cellar, to the right a corridor with stairs leading to the main floor - To the top is my wife's painting room Materials: - The green / thick outside walls will be made of some kind of porous brick, roughly 80x40x40cm (to be confirmed by the architect) - The orange inside walls are plasterboard (to be confirmed by the architect) - Ceiling is finished concrete - Floor is finished concrete LAYOUT I attached two files to this post: 1. The room measurements; ceiling height is 2.56m 2. A proposed layout, following the 36% guideline, with some bass trap placements for the walls; add one over my head (red star) BUDGET Budget is tight (CHF 1'000 max) for setting up the room; if it could include the speakers... :mrgreen: OBJECTIVE The idea is to have something basic, with the following objectives: - treat sound traps - insulate from parasite sounds coming in and out I usually start with some basic chords on the guitar with a metronome through the headphones; I add MIDI instruments and then record the voice(s) with the music guide through the headphones. Once I have all the tracks, I start mixing. QUESTIONS - Should I move the walls around? - Room being small, should I treat the walls at all? - Carpet on wooden floor? - Does the layout make sense? Any other advice welcomed 8) Thanks in advance. V.

are you building this new? if so, there are many many more options than that room shape which will not become a major headache or otherwise problematic. is this the only space you will have available for this?

Hi Glenn, Sorry I didn't see this earlier, I didn't get the email notification :oops: We are designing the whole house so there might be other options for the studio; we are discussing the whole concept on Jan. 18th with the architect. If push comes to shove and I do have to use this room the way it is, can I make something out of it? I am a complete music amateur and I don't need something super extra, just something which covers the basics. The other option I might have is to extend my room along the panels 3 and 5 to make it a rectangle, i.e. extending the corner where the keyboard currently is. This way, I would use the length of the room so that the red axis would be vertical. I could then also use the alcove to place the drum set. Does it make more sense? Thanks for your help!

"just something which covers the basics." That would be a rectangular room:) If you just simply have to, no way around it CANNOT redesign this room, on first glance, I would be more inclined to twist my monitoring area 90 degrees to the right rather than where it is now. Placement of the instruments and such are going to be more room specific rather than something you can figure out by looking at a floor plan. Like drums in a corner never reproduce the desired sonics that were hoped for.

Drums are electronic so it's only a matter of convenience w.r.t. the DAW. I got the rectangular part :yahoo: and we're thinking of changing things around for the whole house so I'll take that into consideration! In terms of flooring, I read that wooden floors are usually good, is that true? Also, for sound insulation purposes (i.e. not letting parasite sounds coming from the outside, mostly), are thinck walls enough or should I consider specific materials? Is there some reading I can do for this? Thanks for your help!

vinnie2k wrote:

In terms of flooring, I read that wooden floors are usually good, is that true? Also, for sound insulation purposes (i.e. not letting parasite sounds coming from the outside, mostly), are thinck walls enough or should I consider specific materials? Is there some reading I can do for this? Thanks for your help!

If you are in a basement (it reads you are) often this is enough if the basement is mostly underground, damped by the Earth. That is a matter of "isolation" and how much you require weather or not you would want to consider a room in a room type design for higher isolation purposes. Since this is a not yet built room, you really have to get the room built before anything can be suggested, since the actual configuration of the room for any isolation needs and treatments of a finished room are dictated by the actual room. Wood floors are nice looking and lots of folks use them. In a basement you would have to have a weather tight room, no anticipated leaking or water infiltration or the flooring will eventually, in short order, de-laminate from the floor since it would be adhered directly to the concrete. Wood flooring has no magical properties. It looks nice but sonically it is about as bright acoustically as a slick concrete floor or commercial vinyl. But, concrete damped by the earth is a very good isolator of sound. And a thick floor 100-150 mm) is better than a thin floor. Stained concrete looks very nice and several here have done this with much success

Thanks for the tips on flooring. I'll try to get a rectangular room :mrgreen: In terms of room dimensions, are these ratia valid? (source) My room being 2m56 high, it means I could shoot for a room 3m94 by 3m28. Does it make sense?

Yes it makes sense and no, none of that matters. If it is really important then you should get the Masters handbook of acoustics, F Alton Everest rather than depend on commercial rhetoric. Most stand on the shoulders of giants to get their point across, myself included:) Search for "room ratios" at this site, but do not get bogged down in the supposed importance. The idea is to not build a square room or a cubed room as it is more a guide line for people that have simply never designed a room of any use before.

Gotcha :lol:

So I'm back, ready to move :yahoo: And I've got a rectangular room. Well, almost :lol: Legend: - Brown is furniture (desk and some filing cabinet, no glass) - Blue are the speakers and the microphone - Grey are instrument areas (K for keyboard) - Green and orange are wall types (see above) - Black is the chair - Red is my head :lol: - Yellow are bass traps - Strong red line is longest dimension and symmetry axis (see below) - Dotted lines are direction lines for sound waves coming from the speakers Now about the placement: - I thought about symmetry - I thought about placing speakers in the longest possible dimension of the room - Bass traps along the red dotted line (1, 2 ,3 and 4) are most likely correctly placed. although - should 2 be rotated by 45 degrees? - I placed 4 like this so that it is symmetrical to 1, is it a good idea? - Are the bass traps along the green dotted lines necessary? I put as much thought into this as possible, but please let me know how I could improve the design of my little home studio. Thank you for your time!

You say you thought about symmetry, but you don't have symmetry in that layout. There is a very large distance between the left speaker and left wall, but only a very short distance between the right speaker and right wall. Maybe you could build a partial wall between the control-room area and the drum area, going back at least as far as the mix position. Or turn the room around 180°, so it faces the other way. - Stuart -

Let me redo the drawing and see what comes out. But yeah, I did see the imbalance. I guess I didn't go far enough :D ABout the bass traps: do I need to put them at the end of the green dotted lines as well as at the end of the red dotted lines?

This is obviously a Projekt Studio, i.e. not mean't for band recording and such. If this is the case I think the plan from 13 Dec. would be fine if you would simply include a separating wall extending from the top vertically down to a point somewhere behind the listening position thus establishing symmetry around the desk and mixing position, while maintaining the space reserved for the drums with entrance. What I don't understand is, if you are in the design stages of the buildings architecture, why are you trying to force a studio design into a seemingly preconfigured geometry? Why not take an optimum design and work that into the proposed building plans? Your monitor (speaker) configuration by the way is not based on an equilateral triangle (60°) as is customary. While a 90° configuration is not entirely unorthodox, I'd recommend you use the 60° configuration for this particular room - it will be a bit simpler in dealing with the reflections ergo treatments.

Sorry if it's unclear: the room is now built and I didn't have a lot of alternatives. I'll do the 60 degrees setup, thanks for reminding me. The issue with walling is the very small space left on the left of that wall; if I can, I'd rotate the whole thing by 180 degrees and benefit from having a "natural" wall to my right that I could extend a bit further up. Updated design coming soon :)

The only problem I see with that is the door forces the desk to be off centre thus again ruining the symmetry. I was suggesting using a simple partition. It doesn't need to be soundproof, as it doesn't totally close off the drum space anyway, but should match or at least approximate the wall on the right in terms of material or density or perhaps better said, bare reflectivity. This partition wall will allow you the best symetrical treatment.

So maybe like a moveable bass trap of sorts? I have to see with the door - doesn't need to be open all the way :mrgreen: Do I need all the bass traps or just the ones along the red dotted lines?

The only problem I see with that is the door forces the desk to be off centre thus again ruining the symmetry.

I noticed that too, but figured the easy solution would be to reverse the sense of the door, so it opens outwards, not inwards. You probably gain enough room like that to keep things centered, if the desk is small. And reversing the sense of a door is not a big deal (unless it would bang into something on the other side!)

I was suggesting using a simple partition. It doesn't need to be soundproof,

Exactly! That's what I suggested too. That makes the most sense to me, and is easy to do. - Stuart -

So I am in fact heading towards the partition; I'm thinking that it has to be at least as long as the distance between the back wall and my head, correct? If that's the case, I'm wondering if the 38% rule is cast in stone or if I could move my speakers (and then my head position) closer to the back wall a bit more? This would allow my partition to be shorter and keep the space as open as possible, all the while keeping the symmetry. Thoughts?

I'm thinking that it has to be at least as long as the distance between the back wall and my head

You seem to have the concept backwards. You need symmetry at the FRONT of the room, not the back. You need symmetry between the speakers and your head. So the partition goes from the FRONT wall, as far back as your head, not the back wall. Like this:

I'm wondering if the 38% rule is cast in stone

It's not written in stone, no. It's just a guideline, but it's a good guideline.

I could move my speakers (and then my head position) closer to the back wall a bit more?

I would not do that. The room is not big enough that you could get the speakers far enough away from the wall to avoid comb filtering and other problems. I would keep the speakers where they are, and build the wall where it is supposed to be, in order to get symmetry for the front of the room. Also, if you move your speakers and mix position away from the front wall, you will have your head in the center of the room, which is a a bad position, and the new side wall would have to be longer, not shorter.... - Stuart -

I concur with Stuart. The first order of business is to get that partition up, then you will have the necessary symmetry to proceed. The next step will then be to measure your room sonically using a mic and software such as REW. This will then help determine where the optimum position of LP and your monitors will be. It will also help in determining the amount and positioning of treatments you will need. Until this step, don't worry about positioning, the 38% is just a typical design parameter and analytically the best starting point.

Yes, exactly, when I wrote the back wall I meant the back wall with respect to the entrance. Whatever :lol: I had the partition where you put it :lol: Thanks for that. How about the bass traps? Are they correctly positioned?

The "bass traps" or more correctly the absorber panels are positioned in the typical positions and will more than likely be correct. In Stuart's drawing above, there is a panel missing to the left of the Listening Position, this is a primary reflection point so you'll need an additional panel there. As I mentioned previously, acoustic testing will help in positioning this treatment. Because of the rooms overall size and 4.08 meter length, you may indeed require some additional absorption, particularly on the rear wall.

Cool, thanks 8)

Now that I am in the house and can really see the space, I am wondering if rotating the whole thing by 270 degrees (rotate 90 degrees left) would work? I would be facing left towards the previously planned drum space. I could build a separation wall to my left (horizontally in the picture, parallel to the top wall on the picture) but not lose as much space behind the desk as I would be if I go along with the current design. The monitoring space would be symmetrical but hopefully having more space to put the rest of the stuff in the room. I have another question: I had planned to put some form of bookshelf in the room (brown block at the bottom left); now I am wondering if this would be really bad for acoustics since sound waves would be reflecting all over the place back there! If I really have stuff/files to store, wouldn't it be better if I had closed-doors type of furniture? Thanks 8)

vinnie2k wrote:

Now that I am in the house and can really see the space, I am wondering if rotating the whole thing by 270 degrees (rotate 90 degrees left) would work? I would be facing left towards the previously planned drum space.

You've nothing to lose, yes go ahead and try it. The angle may turn out to be problematic with reflections but try it anyway Sometimes the best position in a room is across the width even though the guideline suggests lengthwise is preferred. Point is, Finding the natural sweetspot of the room is paramount, so try all positions before making your final descision.

vinnie2k wrote:

I could build a separation wall to my left (horizontally in the picture, parallel to the top wall on the picture) but not lose as much space behind the desk as I would be if I go along with the current design. The monitoring space would be symmetrical but hopefully having more space to put the rest of the stuff in the room..

Yes this separation wall will probably still be necessary, and if built moveable, can still be used in the original or other configuration if deemed preferable.

vinnie2k wrote:

I have another question: I had planned to put some form of bookshelf in the room (brown block at the bottom left); now I am wondering if this would be really bad for acoustics since sound waves would be reflecting all over the place back there! If I really have stuff/files to store, wouldn't it be better if I had closed-doors type of furniture?

Again, try it. Symmetry is the key, place it centered. It could add a diffusive effect to the rear wall which is not necessarily undesirable. If it doesn't work then think about adding doors to it. Always try things out if possible, it eliminates the question "what if I had..." And by trying I mean by making empirical measurements with a mic and something like REW, rather than just going by your feelings.