Johns Standard Control Room

Hi, I've just joined after studying this massive, wonderful forum for many months. Still in the research/design phase but I have an empty 30 ft x 50 ft building attached to my house I hope to eventually build a studio in. I'm planning on building in phases and want to start with a "Control Room" that I can TRACK (vocals and guitars) and MIX in then as I can afford it finish the rest of the building around it. Since my building is mostly open and empty I might be able to use a proven design like Johns control room template Does anyone know WHAT the dimensions of the ideal "Basic Plan 2.gif" control room are and how much can they be varied without hurting the room? JohnH Vermont USA

Welcome to the posting world of John Sayers'! There is no ideal dimension, or dimensions. With that size open space, you have a marvelous opportunity. There is a reason for all the questions in sticky at the top. If you answer those, we can start to give you advice that suits your desires and restrictions. In case you are wondering what restrictions you have, budget is the first one. :mrgreen: Merry Christmas! Andre

Thanks Andre, Merry Christmas to you too, and I wanted to thank you for all the helpful responses that you haven to everyone else. I'm in process of fulfilling the sticky requirements, looking for a sound meter, learning sketchup etc. I'd will provide drawings but I'm not proficient on sketchup yet. Soon (hopefully) I've edited the text below to try to meet all the requirements of the forum. I did not expect this be a long thread. I originally just wanted to locate detailed construction plans, to purchase, of an excellent sounding, large control room that I could build in this space. All the reference books I have, talk about preferred room dimensions for rectangular rooms. I thought there might be a few ideal or pretty damn good sounding rooms out there already in existance (Like the John Sayers control room). I bought 3 books, but they all deal with major limitations in existing spaces. I think I only have one dimensional limitation, ceiling height. But acoustics is not my field of expertise. Machinery vibration analysis is. Here is some preliminary info. Goal - Want to build a large combo control/tracking room FIRST and make it useable so I can move my music and recording equip out of the house. This room will "stand alone" in an unheated, un-insulated buidling. This is primarily for my own use as a songwriter. (DAW, Keyboard, VST's, guitar and vocals) Most of the studio work will be me and one other person in the control /tracking room. Budget? Whatever it takes. Not an issue. $10,000 for the room in question. $100,000 for the building over the years. Existing Building Details - The building is aprox 100 years old. An old Vermont Creamery. - approx 30 feet x 50 feet. 2 stories high + attic. - My 2 car garage and shop are below. (28 feet wide by 30 feet long) - Building frame is rough cut 2"x6", with 1" tongue and groove on both sides, plus clapboards on the outside - No insulation (yet) - Foundation is new 10" thick reinforced concrete on new footings. - The control/tracking room will be on the second floor. - The space to build on is 18 feet x 28 feet (unless we do something else) - The (new) subfloor is 3/4" OSB on 2"x12" joists 16" on center. - The joists span 14 feet, and are supported in the center of the building by an 18" high x 3/12" micro-laminated beam. - The existing tongue and groove wood ceiling is approximately 9 feet high. How Loud Am I? Not an issue. Environmental Noise? The biggest problem will be outside traffic noise. The long side of the building is 10 feet off the main road. Diesel dump trucks, logging trucks, loud pickup trucks, large snowplows, snowmobiles, ATV's and people walking by and chatting quietly all make sound that I can easily here in the building. (currently looking for a sound level meter) I'm working on a floorplan to post. (see below) John H. Vermont

Here is a very crude floorplan. John H. Vermont

Regarding budget, there is no hard and fast number for construction costs for studio building, but as a starter good studio building costs as much as premium/luxury home construction +25%. Look at the prices in your area for such construction and adjust for your doing the labour yourself, how much you are willing to wait at points of construction for bargains as they pop up etc. Having an idea of the price range is paramount. A physical restraint standing out immediately is the load capacity of the floor. Regarding sound isolation, the low frequency rumble 10' away is the first item. How quiet do you need the studio to be and how loud is the outside noise? You have a great space to work with. The othere parameters, including what I wrote above, are much significant in items to be addressed. You will have a great studio in that space, starting raight from the initial room! Andre

+1 Andre

JohnH wrote:

Here is a very crude floor plan.

are the two existing rooms part of the space to convert? can any dividing walls there be removed? would it be possible to get some photos? as Andre pointed out the isolation will be tricky due and the ability to support the weight will be critical.

I will take photographs for you guys as soon as its daylight again here. Regarding floor capacity, what are we looking for? According to the charts, 2"x12" on 16" centers that span only 14 feet should be able to easily support 60 pounds/square foot (dead load) and 20 psf live load. Are you concerned about the natural frequency of the floor as a unit and seismic excitation frequencies? I replaced the footings and foundation under the building last year. The foundation goes 10 or [removed] grade. I insulated the exterior of the concrete with 2" styrofoam and backfilled the 5 foot wide 12 foot deep trench with loose granular sand. The building is rock solid. No low frequency rumble that I have noticed. Though....I have not done a survey with vibration sensors to measure any low frequency seismic motion. I no longer have access to that equipment since leaving the vibration analysis field. The traffic noise, however, is clearly coming through the walls with all the gaps and cracks. I can hear people talking as they walk by. It was built as a Creamery in the horse and buggy days. Andre, I've read some of your posts on doing a sound survey. I wish I still had access to the Bruel and Kjaer mics and my old HP spectrum analyzer. It may take me a while to dig up some equipment but I'll see what I can scrounge up. The worst sound is probably the Diesel dump trucks shifting gears or using the Jake brake. Imagine a bad Sousaphone player with 5000 watt amp and matching woofers going by your house and you have the windows open or maybe a similarly amplified flatulant elephant? I'm guessing 30 - 100 Hz will be an issue. To answer Glenn, the 2 existing rooms; I did not plan to be directly part of the studio. They may end up being partly storage, office, bathroom, kitchenette, guestroom? But I'm not as concerned about the sound in those rooms. I'd like to leave the existing partitions in place. (Photos coming soon) However I can and will extend the 18'x28' floor further at some point, but would rather get my Control/Tracking room built first. I will get the photos up ASAP. Happy Upcoming New Year John H. Vermont

Here are some photos. This is the north wall. The road is just on the other side of this wall. The insulation was put just in that one section by the previous owner, a glassblower. Otherwise the entire building is uninsulated. Closeup of existing exterior wall construction. Roughcut 2"x6" studs with 1" tongue and groove boards inside and out. No insulation. Clapboards on the outside. You can see the joist tape where the OSB is not finished. We did not attach the new joists to the existing joist along side of them. This is one of the 2 existing rooms. (each room aprox 12'x14') The old plank flooring was on 28 foot long 2"x8"'s held up by sky hooks from the attic. That floor was removed and replaced at a higher elevation when the foundation was replaced, so there would be enough headroom in the lower section for garage doors. (no, I'm not giving up my garage, It's frigid Vermont) Even with the floor raised the ceiling height is a little over 9 feet. This shows the staircase that goes to the attic. These 2 rooms were the office for the Creamery. This is looking southwest Turn right, crouch down, head west, and lets go into the space where the Tracking/Control Room will be. This floor is 3/4 OSB screwed to 2x12 joists on 16" centers. There is Green glue "Joist tape" between the OSB and joists. This view is from the northeast corner looking southwest. If we turn slightly to our left and face south along the existing 28 foot long partition, this is what we see. If we turn right again and face west, we see the exhaust duct left over from the glassblowing furnace that used to be here, and some old construction done by the glassblower that will be removed eventually. If we go down the ladder and up those stairs in the west end we can look back east at the new 28x18 subfloor. Looking Southwest from the new 28'x18' floor. That room in the southwest corner is leftoever from the previous owned and will be torn down making room for new construction. All windows will be replaced, raised up, and more added to the south side. Here is the 30 foot long, double 18" microlam beam. With the 2"X12" joists on 16" centers. There is joist tape between the joists and the beam. Looking up from the garage at the floor. Enjoy, John H. Vermont

thanks for the photos! i think the concern was the floor - isolation needs mass and one of the best ways is concrete. there are several approaches here - one could be to put in gyp-crete to create a massive floor and thereby lower the overall resonant frequency (e.g http://www.maxxon.com/images/Acousti-Ma ... im_600.gif). once you get to higher isolation levels on the walls and ceiling the floor becomes the weak spot and a low mass floor will be problematic right in that 30-100hz range. another consideration would be to float the interior isolation walls, supporting an isolation ceiling on those, then float a floor inside those walls using rigid insulation (or some other resilient material) and some layers of MDF and a finished wood floor. if you don't already have a copy of Rod Gervais' book Home Studio: Build It like The Pros 2nd Edition - definitely get a copy. on the measurement front - your PC/Mac and a good microphone (Behringer ECM8000 for example) and Room EQ Wizard (or FuzzMeasure for Mac) are very good tools with a good price / performance value.

Thank you Glenn, I have that book and continue to study it daily. Great idea about using a laptop and measurement microphone. - Any suggestions on software adequate enough to get the job done? (I could throw Audacity on a laptop, it has a spectrum anaylsis mode, but no setting for averages) - Do you guys still need overall broadband sound level measurements, inside and outside the building? (Done with a sound level meter?) I recently read that the newer ECM8000 are not quite the same as they used to be. I found this review while looking for a Behringer mic: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 jeff from Brooklyn I am not sure why PE even sells this anymore, since they now offer their own version that comes with its own unique calibration file. Originally the Behringer ecm8000 got a reputation for being reasonably flat at a very cheap price. But for the last couple of years they have changed and the response is more like a typical recording mic with a huge presence boost. I know because I bought one and had it calibrated by a 3rd party (for about $50 extra) . So for example, there was a 5-6 db boost around 8-10 khz. But if you have a good calibration file that is not a big deal. But this mic does NOT come with a file and it is not flat. So there is 0 reason to sell the ECM8000 as a "meaurement mic" Dayton EMM-6 Each one comes with its own unique calibration file, for the same price. I'd be suprised if it is not made by Behringer, to the original specs. I just bought one to replace my 2 year old ecm8000, which developed a loud hum (for no apparent reason other than it just forgot the words :) The cal file for the EMM-6 indicates it is much flatter too : the maximum peaks are more like 2 db Posting my next attempt at sketchup. (old guy new tricks, :?

there are some VST plug-ins like SPAN by Voxengo which I think support averaging etc. http://www.kvraudio.com/db/1023 and should be compatible with Audacity. hmmmm... my ECM is about 6 years old so maybe they have altered them although they're web site [still] claims they are "ruler flat". maybe a layout like this?

I'll check out the plugins. Your layout is logical. Should I just build a plain old rectangular room and treat it acoustically? Or is there any reason to use the John Sayers design control room template and adapt it to this space? Like this (the left door would need to moved to the rear corner) Would it be better to rotate it 90 degrees, stretch it out a little and fire down the 18 foot long axis? I might want a large video screen between the speakers and some day the open area to the left might be used as a live room. Would anyone suggest this?

are you planning to soffit mount? i'd probably go with #1 so you have a full view into the booth and the future live room. you could build it either way - or a combination of the two where the angled doors are an extension of the isolation walls but the overall room is rectangular to maximize the available trapping space.

Glenn, Yes, I would like to soffit mount the speakers. I been using Yorkville YSM-1 as near fields for years. You think they be adequate for soffit mounting? Also I'm considering moving the room away from the noisy north wall. Question: I'm still wondering if there are some existing "detailed" plans of some great sounding rooms that will fit under a 9 foot ceiling. I'd prefer to work from existing plans using a proven design and build around it. I can move doors, windows and expand the floor are to build around a great sounding room. You've seen the pictures, I've got a big enough project with the rest of the building. I NEED MY STUDIO SOONER. HELP. :cry: Anyone?

i think the answer for pre-built plans is, not directly. there are a lot of proven techniques you can tailor to your specific room to make the room meet a certain set of criteria. if you can post a simple SketchUp file with a detailed floor plan accurate to < 1/2" with all the info - doors, windows, beams, electric, plumbing, etc etc. then it's possible some of the design elves around here may be inclined to chip in. :idea:

"if you can post a simple SketchUp file with a detailed floor plan accurate to < 1/2" with all the info - doors, windows, beams, electric, plumbing, etc etc. then it's possible some of the design elves around here may be inclined to chip in"

That would be great! Here's my best attempt yet at a to scale, properly oriented, accurate to 0.5 inch sketchup. (edit) Windows All the existing windows will be raised up and replaced. I plan on lots of windows on the south wall starting at the existing window to the southwest corner. Since the house is attached to the south wall just next to that window , there can never be any exterior windows from there to the south east corner. (The upstairs bedroom is on the other side) Beam: I drew the ceiling beam in and dimensioned it. That beam in the ceiling has a tired scarf joint and will need support: a good place for a wall? columns or another beam under it. Doesn't matter, we'll fix it one way or another. Ceiling The ceiling height varies depending on where you measure it. Anywhere from 9'-1.5" along the south wall to as low as 8'- 7.5" in the center. I can get a larger studio along the south wall, (but I look shorter :) ) Electric: There is no electricity up here. The old electric is dead. The mercury vapor lamp and ceiling fan are remnants from the glass blower. All that stuff will be removed. I installed a new 200 amp service to the building last year, so I can run power anywhere needed. Plumbing No plumbing either, though I indicated the rough location of a future bathroom above where plumbing is easily available. Room Location: (edit) I keep going round and round on this subject. If we put the room against the north wall I have to deal with insulating an exterior wall for both thermally and acoustically. The north wall is closest to the road noise. I thought that building a free standing room away from that wall might be better. If I make it smaller, I can have a hallway along the north wall. This would help with sound and I could deal with the shell of the building later but the room would be smaller, 1500 cubic feet rather than 1900 cu ft. But bigger would be nice, I have lots of toys to put in here and could use more floor space. But I'd rather not have to finish any major projects on the entire buiding first. (like insulating the entire place) I'd would like to complete this music room first. (A place to escape from the chaos.) (edit) Latest decision IS to put the room against the north (roadside) wall. Insulation (new) I planned on building this (stand alone (for now)) room so I could heat it with electric heat. Later, I will use blown in insulation in the existing exterior wall cavities and foil faced foam. (Heating costs are the big issue up here) Other Progress: Bought the RS digital sound level meter and will do some measurements soon hopefully. Sketchup: Sketchup chokes my office computer if I try to use any of the cool dynamic components so for now, its basic boxes. That's it from northen vermont, where even the cows grow beards in the winter to keep warm.

room location - this is a tricky one and it really boils down to where you are likely to do acoustic recording or very low level critical listening which could be affected by the noise. in my mind, since most CR have a big bass trap on the back, put that facing the traffic. this put the booth away from that (a bit) and a heavy as possible partition wall along the edge which will become the live room someday should give you the room within a room. beefing up and decoupling the exterior and existing walls will be needed for effectiveness and determining how much work is needed on the floor to properly decouple - again it may be the floor gets mass treatment and then later if needed is internally "floated" to decouple from the walls and underlying floor, or maybe just the booth will need it.

Here's a sketchup with more details of the building and an attempt at putting the music room against the northwall.

here's one idea. room-within-a-room for both with doors and windows in anticipation of future expansion. or simply frame out the spaces for the windows into the live room but fill in.

I just got back from an 8 day vacation and found your handywork. Thanks for your time Glenn! Let me take some time and look it over. Much appreciated.

After many hours of sketchuping and consulting with anyone I could drag in off the street I have an updated sketchup file of the entire building (which I can't upload because it's too big) so here's a .png file South is on top of the page (in Vermont we worship the rarely seen sun) Live Room The "live room" will actually be a "multi purpose room" (Recording music, mini conferences, workshops, teaching, presentation, live music) and we want the southern exposure in this room. Control Room So it looks like I need the control/tracking room back against the north wall. Because my wife is getting the southwest corner of the building for her office and we need shared access to the multipurpose room. (more sound proof walls needed) Orientation I think I might prefer to rotate the mix postion 90 degrees and face either west or east for the following reasons: It would leave more room behind me for a guitarist along with all my other musical toys (synthesizers, theremin, hand drums, small amps, guitars and mike stands rather than a couch. Since I use a DAW (Cubase and Ableton), I do NOT have a large traditional console but rather several small control surfaces, 2 monitors, some rack effects and an 88 key midi controller (lots of toys and gizmos) So I don't need the width required for a large console. Any thoughts? Doors I don't really need access to the attic stairs from the control room. We have access to them from the southeast room. So we can get rid of that door completely. Which means I could have only ONE sliding glass door on my side for entry and communication. Is this logical? Plain Jane Rectangular Room vs angles and Built In Treatment As much as I would LOVE a "world class looking" studio, I'm not sure if it makes sence to build it. It will take much longer, is more difficult and would probably be ripped out by the next owner when I go and sell this place in 10 years or less....if I even can) So? What do you think about making the control room rectangular and using John Sayers modular "components" soffit and slats plans? Can I make an almost great sounding room in less time with add on treatments? Or is there no comparison? Anyone smell my desperation to have this studio instantly appear out of thin air? (could someone air lift in one of those "studio's in a container") Construction is starting immediately. So any help would be appreciated. We'll be ripping down the ductwork, old fixtures, building the stairs first. I'll send pictures as we progress. PS. I've got my sound level meter and batteries, but it 20 below zero here and I don't want to freeze the meter.

Glenn, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with me. Based on our talk, we're looking at building a double wall rectangular control room with flat ceiling with one sliding glass door to my left (into the multi-purpose room) and using heavy curtain over it when mixing. Then adding treatments as necessary. Construction has begun on the building. The stairs are built, my wife's future office is framed in, which creates the hallway and access to the multi purpose room as depicted in the previously posted picture. To eliminate a three leaf structure, we have removed the interior surface of the north exterior wall (where the music room will go). Two layers of 5/8" sheetrock will be installed, with caulk and furring strips, inside of the wall cavities to create add mass. There are problems. Both the adjacent existing partition and the existing ceiling will create three leaf construction which we know is bad for low frequency isolation. (diesel dump trucks and jake brakes) We need the existing ceiling to hold up the blown in cellulose and keep out the mice. Other than rip down a 110 year old ceiling filled with 110 years of road dust and mouse droppings and such, are there any other approaches to beefing up and existing ceiling? PLEASE :( The books I have do not show any detail other than building an insulated wall spaced from the existing wall (creating 3 leaf). Same situation with the existing wall. 1 inch tongue and groove boards on 2x4's with no insulation in between. Also there is no plate under this wall, the wall cavities are open to the garage. The attic stairs are on the other side of this wall. Should I leave it as is and build my new wall next to it? Should I seal up the cavities and blow in insulation? Cover one side with sheetrock? Greenglue? Any way to predict and tune the resonant frequency of these structures? Has anyone out there had to go with 3 leaf and made it work? More picture coming soon, and yes I know I am late with the sound survey numbers. Soon.

Would one of these concepts work better at keeping low frequency out? I realize that figure A is triple leaf. I also have no idea of the natural frequency of the existing 30x50 foot wood ceiling structure.

if the upper attic floor could have enough air gaps in it, then it might not become a triple leaf and thus make option C (not shown) viable - put 2x drywall on the upper ceiling and 2x drywall on the lower ceiling.

What would be consider enough gaps, maybe in percentage?