Project Studio - Room within a Room

Hello... I'm writing on behalf of two friends who have a long term rented space that they use as a MIDI writing and mix studio. I have attached pics and dimensions below of the room. Having discovered this site a month or two back, read the rules and then offered to front enquiries, I'm hoping to find a solution for them to make the best use of the space. The room is within a complex of studios, and suffers from spill from nearby rooms. Its been roughly carpeted top to bottom (as you can see in the pics) but thats about it. Major obstacles to creating an ideal environment include pipes that pass through the room (from other rooms) and a large rectangular raised floor at one end, which bizarrely has a mirrored raised area in the ceiling above. I believe that creating a simple room within a room is going to be the solution, and I am really looking for conformation that this is so, and that the dimensions of the room are roughly sound. You'll see in the attached pics the obstacles and the Adobe Illustrator sketch (sorry - not conversant with the published Sketch-up type options as yet!) that is roughly to scale delivering a plan and elevations. Please let me know your thoughts, and suggestions and help me help my friends find the right solution. Cost is not too much of an issue here by the way. As you can see in my rough plan, our solution is to use the right side of the room, building a small control-like room off the right sidewall, then bringing the inner ceiling down so that the left sidewall is lower than the pipework.. the inner room will also stop quite a way short of the back wall. I think given a good set of dimensions there is enough space here to build a decent (if not perfect) room. Please let me know your thoughts. All the best.. alpinerich

Hi alpinerich.

Having discovered this site a month or two back, read the rules ...

You missed one of those rules! :) Please go back and check the again... Anyway, looking at your diagram, I'm trying to figure out which way the room faces! I can't see any symmetry at all in there, and since you didn't mark the positions of the speakers and desk, it's really hard to figure out what you are trying to do. Regarding SketchUp: Its free! You can just download it and start using it. It isn't hard to get started for simple plans. Make a basic model of what you have, with accurate dimensions, showing the positions of the pipes, and those curious "raised areas", to see if we can figure out a good way of maximizing the use of space.

Its been roughly carpeted top to bottom (as you can see in the pics) but thats about it

Ouch!!! That must sound pretty bad!

The room is within a complex of studios, and suffers from spill from nearby rooms

Construction details: What are all of the walls, floors, doors and ceiling made of?

I believe that creating a simple room within a room is going to be the solution, and I am really looking for conformation that this is so,

Yep! That's about it. Full two-leaf, fully decoupled MSM walls all around, plus appropriate treatment within, and you will be fine.

Cost is not too much of an issue here by the way.

That's good to know! Building that kind of thing ain't cheap. Anyway, please fix the missing item from the rules, and provide your sketchup model, so we can try to come up with the best plan. - Stuart -

The overhead sprinkler is going to control a lot of what you do, if you can do anything. But the height you lose from a room in a room doesn't help much. What you should focus on is the existing penetrations and fire caulking those up and getting the carpet out of there completely...since it is a fire hazard and you guys are already outside of the law by having it up, so to speak.

Hi guys, First of all, thanks for the responses. Soundman 2020 - I assume using Adobe Illustrator is the mistake - I shall further annotate the diagram which (as you say) needs to have an indication of which wall is which in relation to the pictures... let me know if this is no the case... Next, Brien - I understand that perhaps in other countries its either unusual or an offence to carpet a space - this is commonplace in the UK in rehearsal studios - I've been playing in bands here for the best part of 20 years - nearly all rehearsal spaces are carpeted.. Anyway, taking down the carpet (put there by the owners of the building) is not an option - I think here is the UK it cannot also be deemed a problem under law - hence its use, but I'll try to find out. Fire caulking could be one way to begin, but the room within a room I think is best because of the sheer volume of problem angles, pipes and raised sections. By the way, the walls are wooden partition on three sides, the back wall is 2 ft thick brick and plaster. These walls cannot be altered. I'll make clearer the dimensions of the space and then hopefully I'll comply to the rules of the forum enough to get the help I was looking for - essentially an idea of the minimum sizes we can work to, to create something that is workable within the given space. Cheers...

Hi Stuart.. Thanks for the message - I just noticed that Sketch-up is an actual requirement.. I'll sort that (I have the app) and get a sketch-up model posted. Cheers...

Soundman 2020 - I assume using Adobe Illustrator is the mistake

Nope! It's the one in really large letters, about one third of the way down this post (click here). :)

I understand that perhaps in other countries its either unusual or an offence to carpet a space - this is commonplace in the UK in rehearsal studios

It's also common place in cheap, dangerous rehearsal spaces in many other parts of the world. But "common practice" does not make it right. Number one, it is a fire hazard (as Brien pointed out), and number two it makes the places sound really bad, acoustically. Carpet has pretty lousy acoustic properties, which is why you never see it used in well designed professional studios (except maybe to hide the real acoustic treatment, in which case it is proper fire-rated acoustical carpet). It absorbs sound selectively, to different levels at different frequencies. It absorbs highs pretty well, mids not very well, and lows not at all, which is the exact opposite of what you want with acoustics treatment. So your room ends up sounding dull, honky, boomy, and rather unpleasant. In your case, since you want to build a "room in a room", it will be inside the MSM wall cavity, where it wont matter that much from the acoustic point of view, but it will still be a fire hazard.

Fire caulking could be one way to begin,

It is the ONLY way to begin! Both leaves must be sealed airtight. That inlcudes the existing outer leaf.

By the way, the walls are wooden partition on three sides, the back wall is 2 ft thick brick and plaster. These walls cannot be altered.

So you are going to need a LOT of mass on your inner-leaf walls, and large air spaces between. Since you have no choice but to end up with three-leaf walls, that is the only way to get good isolation. You have to compensate for the three-leaf losses with the extra mass and extra air gap.

I just noticed that Sketch-up is an actual requirement..

It's not am absolute requirement, but it is what most of us use, so if you want help with your design, that's the way to go! :) Have you measured the levels in the room, and figured out your numbers yet? How loud, how quite, etc. That should be your first step in the design. Without having an actual goal, it is impossible to design the wall that you need. - Stuart -

Apologies - I have added the relevant missing info. Alps

:) :yahoo: - Stuart -

I just noticed that Sketch-up is an actual requirement..

It's not am absolute requirement, but it is what most of us use, so if you want help with your design, that's the way to go! :) Have you measured the levels in the room, and figured out your numbers yet? How loud, how quite, etc. That should be your first step in the design. Without having an actual goal, it is impossible to design the wall that you need. - Stuart -[/quote] Thanks Stuart (once again) for your advice.. I'm going to have a go with sketch up, after the guys have done a levels test - I'll follow your instructions, then come back with more detailed drawings. I've looked into caulking, again following advice from yourself and Brien.. I understand the need for this, though the studio owners may not like the removal of the carpet. We'll budget for this right away. Just out of interest, how much of a concern is the carpeting in the respect of law - fire hazard etc - and why do so many commercial ventures do it if its so wrong? Is it just done through lack of knowledge about what carpet does to a room? As I said, its so commonplace. Cheers, Alpinerich

Is it just done through lack of knowledge about what carpet does to a room? As I said, its so commonplace.

Most likely. It seems to be second only to egg crates on the list of acoustic myths. Probably folks go to modern movie houses, see what they think is carpet on the walls, not how good the acoustics are, and figure that the carpet must be responsible for the good sound. what they don't realize is that the carpet in a movie theater is NOT the treatment: the carpet is most likely designed to be acoustically transparent, and its only purpose in life is to hide the real treatment that is on the other side of the carpet, but looks pretty ugly. The carpet is pure aesthetics: the real magic goes on behind it. But folks don't know that, so they figure "If movie houses get such great sound with carpet, then I can do that too"! So they grab any old chunk of carpet, glue it to the walls, and think the did something wonderful, when in fact they just took a huge step backwards, acoustically. The issue with most kinds of carpet you commonly find in homes and offices is that the acoustic properties are unknown: it just was not designed with any acoustics in mind, so the properties end up being totally random. In most cases, typical home and office carpeting absorbs high frequencies quite well, to varying degrees, absorbs a little bit of mids, and absorbs absolutely zero lows. In reality, most studios, rehearsal rooms, home theaters, and other small listening rooms need exactly the opposite in treatment! They need huge amounts of low frequency absorption ("bass trapping"), a moderate amount of mid absorption, and only a little high frequency absorption, if any. So 99 times out of a hundred, the carpet does the exact opposite of what is needed. Why do people still use it, then? #1 reason: Ignorance. #2 reason: "I saw it on the Internet, so it must be right!". The exact same reasons why so many cheap rehearsal rooms and home studios have use egg crates and mattresses in them, with the drum kit in the corner, the singer in the exact center of the room, and everything turned up to 11.... Even a basic understanding of small room acoustics would convince them to do none of the above, and the sound would just be so much better. But ignorance always wins out against knowledge for those who aren't prepared to learn... - Stuart -

Hello Stuart.. (and anyone who may be interested) I have made an attempt at a (very rough) Google Sketchup illustration with an accurate view of the available studio space, and what I guess will be roughly the shape and space occupied by the mix studio. I have a screen shot, but I presume the full Google Earth export version will be the most useful to those who can provide some help. Not sure if I upload it or send a link - here's the shot anyway. Please let me know if the full export can be uploaded. The two guys that are going to pay and build this are both chomping at the bit to start. I think there are still a lot of things to look at though... Many thanks, Richard.

Hello.. to follow up my last update... You'll notice from all the pictures I already uploaded and the SketchUp illustration the space that can best be utilised in the room is to one side of the main obstacles, the raised floor and the large pipe near the ceiling. I have used standard Google components that are 2 off 8 x 12" panels, one with a window and door in it, and 2 off 8 x 6" panels at the front and back. I think these stud walls will provide the main "room within a room" frame inside which a 3rd skin can be added to provide the acoustic finish. I'd like to know if there are any specific things here to avoid particularly with the room timbers. Also, after beginning the project by removing the carpet from the walls, then fire caulking the pipes, is the overall 6 x 12" size of the space going to be acoustically OK? All help and suggestions will be well received and much appreciated. Richard.

Here are 3 more views of the model.. Richard.

maybe there's a way to better leverage the entire space because you really don't want to work in a closet... basically build up another set of isolation walls away from the ones you have and treat the space. build a soffit under the pipes and couch space. attached is SU model.

Hiya Glenn.. This looks great - fab drawings too - well done. I think this is the way forward, and although its only for mixing and MIDI writing, the space and use of the current room looks ideal. Like you say, there's no need to work in a shoebox! I'll pass this info on to the boys... Cheers, Rich