So I'm in between projects and this seems to be a good time to finally revamp the beat laboratory. I've been putting this off for about 5 yrs now since I've moved in and plopped my gear down where it was functional - But not necessarily where it would sound best. And I didn't have time to think about any construction at the time...until now! Now first off, I must admit that despite searches and spending countless hours trolling the forums here, a lot of the knowledge offered here is a little over my head (" They think I'm slow. eh?"). I understand most of the theories, but am having trouble comprehending how to put them into practice effectively. So I would love to hear from those wiser than I, any suggestions of how I could rearrange / reconstruct my room to a better suited mixing environment. I'd be interested in trying out one of John's oft advised angular setups if it would be appropriate, but not sure which corner would achieve the best sweet spot at the mix position in my somewhat awkward room. Or is rectangular the way to go? Unfortunately I don't have the space to do much trial and error with the furniture - Once the records come off the shelves there's no room left to move around ; ) So I only want to move things once which is why I'm finally asking for some personalized expert advice.
My Needs: My priority is making the best mix environment I can put together for a floating budget of around $700 USD - the less the better as money is somewhat tight these days. I have faith that I am capable of making my own absorbers / corner traps with the help of this site and it's wonderful contributors. I'm also blessed to have good friends that are good carpenters and are willing to help out, so labor costs would certainly be reasonable if some reconstruction would make an improvement to the room's response. Isolation is not a primary concern as my neighbors are fairly tolerable of my noise levels, but any isolation side effects would certainly be welcome if they wouldn't compromise the sound inside the room. I do mostly in the box programming / composing / mixing stuff in here (Dance, Pop, Hip-Hop), but also record a solo vocalist from time to time. So I will need a small practical area for vocal mic placement, but it can be within the room or down the hall rather than building a dedicated "booth". But aside from that I don't need to reserve any space for recording multiple mic'ed instruments - one decent spot will suffice. Also of concern is keeping the turntables and keyboard setup within an arms reach of the mix position - The U shape arrangement like I currently have (Turntables on one side of me, keyboards on the other side, desk/ monitors in front works great for me, so I'd like to maintain that arrangement, though the "U" can change it's location within the room. Also wondering if and how these bookshelves full of records could serve the double purpose of some acoustic benefit if properly placed. Planning on building broadband absorbers for mirror points and corner traps where most useful. Any additional treatment suggestions are most welcome:)
Current Setup (Pictures Attached): The room is located in the basement of a row home. The front wall exterior is made of concrete, Interior wall is Insulated/Drywall over to the point of the front closets. Front closet walls are still bare concrete which I could finish, and the closets are not a necessity - I could remove them altogether if that would help. The other point of interest is the front window which isn't quite pictured accurately. The positioning is right, but there is an 18" deep ledge/cutout between the interior wall and the thin slatted window which I plan on replacing at some point as it's very drafty in wintertime. I'll attach a picture for clarity.
The two side walls are likely brick and plaster, but I can't tell unless I remove the '70s style wood paneling. I don't think there's any insulation currently behind the paneling as I can hear my neighbors speaking from time to time. I'm willing to build new gypsum walls and insulate, but only if they would contribute to a better sounding room. On the right wall, I could only build as far back as the stairs, and that wall could not be very deep as the steps are already very narrow. Beyond that (Hallway) is where furnace, washer, dryer and too much else are located to build around, so that stays exposed.
The back wall seperating the garage is the only wall I could potentially move father back (3 ft. max) if a change in dimension would bring about an improvement or get me closer to a "golden ratio". The only thing not pictured in floor plan is a large (73"H x 16"D x 73"W) wall unit shelf along the back wall behind my current mix position, which houses yet more records and seems to act as somewhat of a diffusor (I left a couple sparse/ empty shelfs for this purpose but most of them are filled with vinyl records). This would also have to go somewhere if rearranged and the right wall isn't a good option as it would partially block the stairs.
The ceiling is low unfortunately - It's a drop style ceiling with the faced fiberglass panels. From floor to ceiling panel is only a height of 78 3/8 inches. There is currently no insulation between the ceiling joists, which run from left to right and are about 8" deep. From floor to the bottom of joists is 84". Unfortunately there are pipes running from front to back below the joists so I wouldn't be able to mount drywall directly to the joists - resulting in a lower potential ceiling - No space to slope the ceiling so that's not an option. Particularly interested in your input here - I'm assuming that running insulation between the joists would bring about an improvement, so I plan on doing that. But after that should I go with the drop ceiling style (Fiberglass panels or acoustic style tiles), gypsum board as high as i can, or simply staple a cloth barrier to the bottom of the joists letting the insulation absorb as much as it can.
The floor is carpeted, though I'm not sure it's absorbing a whole lot since it's not very thick and there is only about a centimeters worth of useless padding underneath. I'm not attached to the carpet necessarily, but there's only concrete underneath which wouldn't look very nice. And a wood style floor isn't really a practical option in my basement - I can't afford to lose anymore height. If it's hurting more than it's helping I would lose the carpeting, but it's prob more practical to introduce some reflective floor materials like a plastic "chair roller" mat or some other randomly spaced floor-like surfaces in places that would be helpful -mix position and vocal area perhaps?)
If you've made it this far, hopefully this will give you a decent idea of what I'm working with as well as my structural limitations. But feel free to ask questions if I've left out any pertinent details or if anything is unclear. I'd love to hear some ideas on how I could make the most out of my room. I'm really excited about this project and that I've finally gotten around to doing it, but I couldn't possibly do it without the guidance of this forum and I sincerely thank you in advance for any advice you could offer : ) Cheers!
Rearranging my Composing/ Mixing room
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 14979.
Always go with a rectangle. The modes are predictable and correctable. The construction is cheaper. The isolation is predictable. Philip Newell in 'Recording Spaces' has said, "the angling of the walls has produced a very different path for the hand-clap echoes, and will be quite dispersive at high frequencies, at low frequencies very little has changed." and "It can thus be seen that whilst the angling of walls can have a very worthwhile effect at frequencies above those which possess a wavelength which will be subsequently shifted in position by a half wavelength or more on their return to the source wall, at frequencies below these, the effect will simply be that of a comb filter... Strong comb filtering at low frequencies is usually musically disruptive and very undesirable in recording studios and music rooms in general, though it exists to some degree in all reflective spaces." F. Alton Everest also states; "The acoustical benefit to be derived from the use of non-rectangular shapes in audio rooms is rather controversial. Gilford10 states, “...slanting the walls to avoid parallel surfaces.... does not remove colorations; it only makes them more difficult to predict.” and "The proportions of a rectangular room can be selected to eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, degeneracies, while in the case of the non-rectangular room, such a prior examination of degeneracies is completely impractical." and "If the decision is made to splay walls in an audio room, say 5%, a reasonable approximation would be to analyze the equivalent rectangular room having the same volume." - emphasis added. I hope this helps with your decision. ;).... I understand most of the theories, but am having trouble comprehending how to put them into practice effectively. So I would love to hear from those wiser than I, any suggestions of how I could rearrange / reconstruct my room to a better suited mixing environment. I'd be interested in trying out one of John's oft advised angular setups if it would be appropriate, but not sure which corner would achieve the best sweet spot at the mix position in my somewhat awkward room. Or is rectangular the way to go?
The budget most likely knocks out any 'building' of walls. You can do everything you want in one room as long as it is arranged and treated properly. Record shelves are often better absorbers than diffusers, but I honestly would not count on much from them. ;)My Needs: ...a floating budget of around $700 USD .... I have faith that I am capable of making my own absorbers / corner traps with the help of this site and it's wonderful contributors. .... Isolation is not a primary concern .... I will need a small practical area for vocal mic placement, but it can be within the room or down the hall rather than building a dedicated "booth". .... Also wondering if and how these bookshelves full of records could serve the double purpose of some acoustic benefit if properly placed. Planning on building broadband absorbers for mirror points and corner traps where most useful.
If possible remove the closets. Symmetry is very important for your mix setup.Current Setup (Pictures Attached): The room is located in the basement of a row home. The front wall exterior is made of concrete, Interior wall is Insulated/Drywall over to the point of the front closets. Front closet walls are still bare concrete which I could finish, and the closets are not a necessity - I could remove them altogether if that would help. The other point of interest is the front window which isn't quite pictured accurately. The positioning is right, but there is an 18" deep ledge/cutout between the interior wall and the thin slatted window which I plan on replacing at some point as it's very drafty in wintertime. I'll attach a picture for clarity.
You would benefit from removing the paneling on the party wall, installing insulation and recovering with gypsum board.The two side walls are likely brick and plaster, but I can't tell unless I remove the '70s style wood paneling. I don't think there's any insulation currently behind the paneling as I can hear my neighbors speaking from time to time. I'm willing to build new gypsum walls and insulate, but only if they would contribute to a better sounding room. On the right wall, I could only build as far back as the stairs, and that wall could not be very deep as the steps are already very narrow. Beyond that (Hallway) is where furnace, washer, dryer and too much else are located to build around, so that stays exposed.
My recommendation is: RFZ design Center the mix position on the wall to the 'left' where you have the turntables in the drawing. Remove the shelves and the closets. Your mix position should be 530cm from the wall. Position your speakers so that they are equidistant from you and each other... be aware of SBIR - speakers not too close to the wall :cop: since, you will be making the ceiling absorbent, a cloud trap is unnecessary. Corner trap in all vertical corners - as possible... Be sure to maintain symmetry in front and to the sides of the mix position. Place reflection point traps to the left and right & behind the speakers. My First Reflection Calculator can help you there... http://www.jhbrandt.net/pubs.html Absorption/diffusion on the wall behind the mix position - you will need about 3 meters behind you for diffusion to be effective.The back wall seperating the garage is the only wall I could potentially move father back (3 ft. max) if a change in dimension would bring about an improvement or get me closer to a "golden ratio". The only thing not pictured in floor plan is a large (73"H x 16"D x 73"W) wall unit shelf along the back wall behind my current mix position, which houses yet more records and seems to act as somewhat of a diffusor (I left a couple sparse/ empty shelfs for this purpose but most of them are filled with vinyl records). This would also have to go somewhere if rearranged and the right wall isn't a good option as it would partially block the stairs.
Your last option I would recommend. Remove the ceiling tiles/grid. staple cloth to the underside of the joists, holding the insulation above. Trim the fabric joints with wood slats. Leave the exposed pipes exposed. :PThe ceiling is low unfortunately - It's a drop style ceiling with the faced fiberglass panels. From floor to ceiling panel is only a height of 78 3/8 inches. There is currently no insulation between the ceiling joists, which run from left to right and are about 8" deep. From floor to the bottom of joists is 84". Unfortunately there are pipes running from front to back below the joists so I wouldn't be able to mount drywall directly to the joists - resulting in a lower potential ceiling - No space to slope the ceiling so that's not an option. Particularly interested in your input here - I'm assuming that running insulation between the joists would bring about an improvement, so I plan on doing that. But after that should I go with the drop ceiling style (Fiberglass panels or acoustic style tiles), gypsum board as high as i can, or simply staple a cloth barrier to the bottom of the joists letting the insulation absorb as much as it can.
Also, since we are making the ceiling absorptive, you could remove the carpet. The acoustic absorption of carpet peaks at/around 2kHz and so will contribute to unbalanced acoustics where the HF decay is too short compared to the lower wavelengths. Painted concrete looks nice. There is also the Epoxy coat stuff. Good luck with your project! Cheers, JohnThe floor is carpeted, though I'm not sure it's absorbing a whole lot since it's not very thick and there is only about a centimeters worth of useless padding underneath. I'm not attached to the carpet necessarily, but there's only concrete underneath which wouldn't look very nice. And a wood style floor isn't really a practical option in my basement - I can't afford to lose anymore height. If it's hurting more than it's helping I would lose the carpeting, but it's prob more practical to introduce some reflective floor materials like a plastic "chair roller" mat or some other randomly spaced floor-like surfaces in places that would be helpful -mix position and vocal area perhaps?)
here's one idea
BRILLIANT!! (Guiness commercial) :P
Thank you both for the informative reply and illustration :thu:
Not sure what a party wall is but both side and rear walls could all be redone without a problem. Curious to your thoughts on moving the rear/garage wall by any margin. Since that is the only place I have to add any size to the room. Going along with your setup, any expansion there would make the room wider at mix position.You would benefit from removing the paneling on the party wall, installing insulation and recovering with gypsum board.
When you say shelves, are you referring to my record shelves, or the closet shelves? I ask because when you say to remove the closets, I figure you meant to lose the closet frame and finish the wall flush with the rest of the lower wall. However in Gullfo's illustration the closet is still in tact, Which I would think would throw off the symmetry of the bass traps on front sides of me. I'm fine with losing that closet, but the issue with that is my water meter is located inside there, so that would have to be relocated (outside preferably) and I don't know how to go about getting that done. I assume the water company would have to come out for that and judging by past experience, getting the water company to do anything can be quite a hassle. Perhaps I just cut the closet back and finish the wall with a bass trap rather than drywall :?: Luckily the other closet presents no problems for removing. As for the record shelves...well they've gotta go somewhere unfortunately. Any suggestions? I understand why you would recommend getting rid of the carpet, but what do you think about the idea of putting some reflective materials on top of the carpet in key areas. For example, mix position will already have a plastic chair roller that would cover most of mix area floor. How much of a problem would carpet outside of/ behind the mix position create? I ask because getting furniture in / out of this room is a royal pain in the rear I'd rather avoid. But in order to remove all carpet and paint floor I see no other way than to remove everything. A task I'd rather not take on, but if it's something that would make an ok sounding room into a good sounding room I'd do it. Again thank you both for your input :DRemove the shelves and the closets.
i just took your floor plan as is and added treatment ideas... it you can expend into the garage and remove the closet and other indents etc. to create a better rectangular space to a good ratio plus increase the overall isolation, then you should definitely consider that. basically, if you can strip down the room to it's framing and redo the walls and ceiling to add mass and decouple the inner isolation walls via isolation clips it would change things completely.
@ Gullfo: I am planning to redo the left, right, and rear walls. And I can def remove that top left closet to create a flush corner. Also will be insulating ceiling and leaving open / fabric covered as suggested by Mr. Brandt above. Iso clips are still in the air as I plan to research their value more. I'm sure as the name implies they would help to isolate me from my neighbors. But would that in turn have a negative effect on the response inside the room? My neighbors are pretty tolerable so I don't need super isolation. I do need a good sounding mix room however :?
The main obstacle I'm facing right now is deciding on my room dimensions. I'm having trouble finding a good room ratio. Granted most of this trouble is because as a mac user I can't readily access the PC only ModeCalc program which would make life a good bit easier right now - My brains hurting right now from doing all the math and I still haven't come close to an "ideal" ratio, assuming I did the math right :-? My ceiling height is 91.25" (Floor to underside of floorboards above) and that's not changing. The distance between the left and right cement walls would be approx 167" after new drywall. I could build in an extra couple inches here with a wider air gap if that helps the room ratio but would rather have the space. But the most significant variable I have to play with is the rear/garage wall. It's currently 140" from the front wall, but could be moved back up to approx 185" from the front wall. I was hoping to expand the room a little bit here (up to 45"), but expansion here might put me too close to or just past square-ish territory. So I guess my basic question is, can anybody propose a distance for that back wall to be placed that would give me a good ratio to work with? Ratio currently looks like this 91.25" (floor to ceiling): 167" (Sides of building): variable of 140" - 185" (front to garage wall). Thanks again :)
isolation brackets shouldn't negatively impact your room response. getting the proper ratio and treatments defined will make sure the room works as expected. from a room ratio perspective, you could start with Louden's best ratio:
ratio size
1.00 7.58 h
1.40 10.61 w
1.90 14.40 l
and adjust your isolation walls to match these. stripping your existing walls to the frame and then beefing up where needed, closing off some windows, planning for ventilation and cooling/heating. then adding an inner isolation wall or using isolation mounts to decouple.
I'm afraid this ratio would require building inward too much in an already small room. Once the bass traps and 16" record shelves line the walls There wouldn't be much room left for me and the gear. :( If anything I need more space in here and there's only one wall to get it from.ratio size 1.00 7.58 h 1.40 10.61 w 1.90 14.40 l
ratio size
1.00 7.58
1.59 12.08
1.84 13.92
which is actually a decent ratio based on Control Room calculator.
this is basically the size you have described without expanding into the garage.
Now we're talking! 5" back with my garage wall and I'm right there :) Hadn't seen this as a recommended ratio before.1.00 7.58 1.59 12.08 1.84 13.92
it wasn't but that's why using calculators are useful - modern computers and updated algorithms help. the real trick would be to take some acoustic measurements of the space as-is, as a quick sanity check to see what's jumping out.
I would imagine doing a frequency sweep analysis now with my current setup would be quite diff after relocating monitors, insulating ceiling, Bass traps and new walls though. Would anything be gained by doing one now that would help on on the construction end?
Even though the construction will changes things, given the overall dimensions will be roughly the same, it might be useful to have a snapshot and see if anything like resonances etc show up. Plus it would be cool to do a before and after comparison. It would be a full room measurement not too concerned with listening position etc.
+1
Glenn has you 'cookin' now. ;)
Note: ideal ratios can often be misleading. I have checked perfectly 'ideal' ratios at certain dimensions and get triple incidences. Always check with a 'trusty' mode calc. You can get mine here http://jhbrandt.net/pubs.html.
Cheers,
John
I hear that. But I'm not sure I have the proper tools to conduct this - I def don't own an SPL meter, but would certainly consider purchasing, especially if the radio shack $50 SPL meter is considered acceptable. I just perused the pages of hometheatreshack and their Room Eq Wizard software. It looks like you don't need their recommended Behringer mic as long as you have an SPL meter - Is this correct? Also I'm not sure how or if this software takes into account the frequency response of different monitors. I guess it wouldn't matter much as long as I'm using the same monitors before and after - which I would be for a while anyway. Is Room eq wizard the way to go for this type of testing or is there another test you would recommend? Preferably for not much more $ than the price of a Radio Shack SPL meter?Plus it would be cool to do a before and after comparison
Thank you for the link - I plan on checking this out as soon as I can find some time with a friends version of Microsoft Excel - I do not have myself Things are starting to come together on the reconstruction plans. I've got my building buddy to set some time aside for 3 wks from now. So I'll be packing up the studio and doing the demolition between now and then - basically just ripping up the carpet and pulling the paneling off the walls, but I like saying demolition. I'll wait for the pro before tearing down the one wall :) In the meantime I've been soaking up as much as I can about wall building and materials (which I'll need to order soon). However it seems most of the info I find is geared toward achieving better isolation rather than a better sounding room. As I said much earlier in this post, Isolation is not a huge concern of mine as I only mix at moderate levels usually during "acceptable" neighbor friendly hours anyway. So I'm not sure how much of this construction information is relevant to my needs and how far I should go with it. From what I've gathered with building toward better isolation - It's all or nothing, and "all" isn't really an option for me. Thankfully though, It doesn't need to be. I can only get wider air gaps out of two walls, so not sure it's worth it or if that would actually have a detrimental effect listening in the room due to the different resonant frequencies. The one finished wall already uses 3/8 or 1/2" drywall with the standard faced R-19 insulation. the 3 new walls will be 5/8" so I hope that won't affect the mix environment too much as it is. Also I've got a good bit of leftover R-19 insulation hanging around. Would this be at all suitable for inside walls or between ceiling joists (fabric covered ceiling). I have a feeling I know the answer, and I'm prepared to shell out more for better stuff. I know I need different insulation for room treatment later, but would better insulation between the walls or on ceiling contribute to a better sounding room - isolation not being an issue? Thanks again guys for all your help and insight - truly appreciated :DAlways check with a 'trusty' mode calc. You can get mine here http://jhbrandt.net/pubs.html.
best to tear off the thinner drywall, insulate (R19 should be fine) and add 3x 5/8" layers on that wall. SPL will not be as accurate as an ECM8000 (and both are about $50) but the SPL meter is good for checking around the outside and upstairs.
Why 3 layers on the front wall? If that wall should be thicker than the others for some reason, it would certainly be easier to add more layers of drywall i would think than remove the work I already had done :? side note: That front wall had to be replaced earlier this year for emergency / non-acoustical reasons. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to do any research before builders were here with materials.best to tear off the thinner drywall, insulate (R19 should be fine) and add 3x 5/8" layers on that wall
-- Actually since you already have insulation in the wall cavity, you can just add a couple layers of 5/8" type 'X' to the front wall and be done. :wink: cheers, JohnWhy 3 layers on the front wall? If that wall should be thicker than the others for some reason, it would certainly be easier to add more layers of drywall i would think than remove the work I already had done :? side note: That front wall had to be replaced earlier this year for emergency / non-acoustical reasons. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to do any research before builders were here with materials.best to tear off the thinner drywall, insulate (R19 should be fine) and add 3x 5/8" layers on that wall
If this is a silly question, please pardon my ignorance. But I'm confused as to why it would be recommended to make the front wall thicker than the other 3 walls. Is it for isolation purposes?-- Actually since you already have insulation in the wall cavity, you can just add a couple layers of 5/8" type 'X' to the front wall and be done.
It's not big deal. You only want to match the STL of the other walls. If you exceed the STL, good.
If you only add one layer of 5/8" gypsum board to the wall that has the standard 1/2", it will not be enough mass to equal the other walls, therefore we recommend using 2 layers of the 5/8" on top of the existing. This way it is not the weak link.
Cheers,
John
sorry. match the number of layers. i thought i read 3x layers but if you're only doing 2x layers i'm good with that as well. :oops: per JHB - matching the isolation value is a very good idea plus when you open the walls you can caulk and cracks and add the insulation and you will be better off. you're doing all the other work already, why not get it right?
I'd get the 1/2" stuff off if I could, if that were my room. Its rather thin and flexible, and has unpleasant acoustic characteristics. But if you really can't get it off, then sure, a couple of layers of 5/8" on top would go a long way to improving things.
Well this is the thing... and if my logic is wrong, please set me straight. I was under the impression that extra layers of drywall were added solely for the purpose of isolation/ soundproofing from the other side of the wall - which I don't have a problem with. My neighbors are used to and accepting of the amount of noise I make in here. So better isolation is not the goal here. And I figured any sound waves that escape through walls, etc, are sound waves that I wouldn't have to worry about bouncing around inside the room, which would be a good thing I would think. So what am I missing here? How does better soundproofing contribute to a more accurate listening / mixing environment? :?
If money were no object, I wouldn't even be asking these questions. But I can't afford enough green glue and 3 layers of drywall to go down the best isolation road right now. Thankfully I have good neighbors :)
The idea is if you find you need it later then you have a lot of rework... Nice neighbors not withstanding. Yes, increasing the isolation increases the treatments in many cases but if your room response is lopsided side to side it won't good either...