Framing Questions

Hello all. This is my first post here on the forum. I am in the design phase of my studio plans. I have a budget of $7000 for the construction of my control room. I have drafted up several control room designs but could use some help with some specifics. My room design as seen below is based on L. W. Sepmeyer's 3rd most popular room ratio 1: 1.60: 2.33 found on this forum and in books like "Home Recording Studio: Build It Like The Pros" by Mr Gervais. That is where I found it, though I first saw it on Mr. Winer's Acoustics forum. That being said, My room has a ceiling height of 9 feet and will be 21 feet from front wall to back wall. As you can see from the picture below the room does not have parallel side walls. Obviously this is to avoid any slap echo and or comb filtering issues. With regard to the width of the room, the listening position is rough 14.4 feet wide which is consistent with the width ratio above. While I do know that I could build a rectangle and treat my first reflection points with absorption and thus nullify my questions below, I like the aesthetic of the design. I don't want to feel like I am working in a box. Any advice, comments, or concerns on this design would be much welcomed. I do not have a building yet in which to start my construction but I am currently looking. I do believe whatever I find I will more than likely be constructing on top of a concrete slab. I intend to use a sheet of MLV first on the concrete then place my footers on that to begin my framing. Unless anyone can convince me that I should use timber for framing, I intend to use steel framing for my build. Mr Gervais suggests advantages to using light gauge steel framing which I would like to take advantage of. Regarding framing, I plan on using 18 gauge steel studs to make my walls. Each wall will have two layers of 5/8" drywall using green glue. First question: 1. How do I frame corners using steel studs when the corners are not 90 degrees? The image of the corner below is 85.9 degrees not 90. Regarding construction of the ceiling of this control room. Second Question: 2. With the understanding that I am building a room within a room, do I construct two independent ceilings? The first ceiling would use joists that span the inner wall top plates and the second ceiling would use joists that span the outer wall top plates. Obviously the outer walls would be slightly higher than the inner walls as to keep both sets of joists from touching each other. I assume this is how I would do it but I have been unable to find a lot of specific information of this topic. Thanks in advance to all those who contribute so much to this invaluable forum.

"I do believe whatever I find I will more than likely be constructing on top of a concrete slab." Sounds good. "I intend to use a sheet of MLV first on the concrete then place my footers on that to begin my framing. " Why? Where did you get information that suggests taking mass loaded vinyl and placing it over something that is already more dense, more damped and more better to begin with will be an improvement? What footers are you talking about? If we both agree that a footer is typically trenched/formed into the earth and concrete is poured into this trench/form and you are going to be building on an existing slab, where would this footer be?

Hi thanks for the response. "Why? Where did you get information that suggests taking mass loaded vinyl and placing it over something that is already more dense, more damped and more better to begin with will be an improvement?" I understand that the layer of MLV will not provide any real "sound proofing". My idea was to put something on the ground between the concrete and bottom steel plates of the framing for the purpose of minimizing any potential vibrations between those two materials. Perhaps it is unnecessary?! What footers are you talking about? If we both agree that a footer is typically trenched/formed into the earth and concrete is poured into this trench/form and you are going to be building on an existing slab, where would this footer be? No I am not referring to a trench filled with concrete. When I say "footers" I mean the bottom plates of the framing that the wall studs anchor to. Perhaps I am referring to them incorrectly.

Perhaps it is unnecessary?!

Yes, it is unnecessary. Even if such a thing were necessary, MLV would not work since it is not designed to be resilient. - Stuart -

ricotrex wrote:

I understand that the layer of MLV will not provide any real "sound proofing". My idea was to put something on the ground between the concrete and bottom steel plates of the framing for the purpose of minimizing any potential vibrations between those two materials. Perhaps it is unnecessary?!

You got that part correct. MLV is more a product for temporary curtains in construction zones or in places where reduced noise levels are desired. If you placed anything underneath these plates it would be caulk.

ricotrex wrote:

No I am not referring to a trench filled with concrete. When I say "footers" I mean the bottom plates of the framing that the wall studs anchor to. Perhaps I am referring to them incorrectly.

Correct again, hey, your good at this? What you are referring to are plates as you said in the first part of this post. Bottom plate, sole plate, rat-sill, either of the three is recognizable as proper use. A footer is typically a support area underneath a concrete slab at specific stress/support points. I'm not bustin' yer chops here but you understand that specific verbiage is part of what goes on around here so if you say it, it has to be "it" or we can spend days trying to unravel what "it" you might be talking about. I should probably develop a word chart to aid folks in construction terminology. Lord knows my head is full of it.

I'm not bustin' yer chops here but you understand that specific verbiage is part of what goes on around here so if you say it, it has to be "it" or we can spend days trying to unravel what "it" you might be talking about.

Thanks Brien for keeping me straight. I appreciate your help. I am learning as I go and I will do my best to try to use the appropriate language here. I definitely see how it can cause headache and misunderstanding. So, okay, I will ditch the idea of using MLV under my bottom plates. Can you offer any advice on my other two questions? On a side note I noticed your avatar says you are in Alabama. I grew up in Huntsville and went to U of A in Tuscaloosa for 3 years. Roll Tide! :) Hope your not an Auburn Fan! :?

To the first question:

The second question: Usually people start with an existing building, so it already has a ceiling even though it (ceiling) may have to be modified in many ways to accommodate mass/HVAC/electrical, etc. Yea, a lot of roll tide goes on around here, I pull for Alabama and anybody playing against Auburn :)

Thanks again for the quick reply and sketch. That helps so much. Since we are discussing steel framing, some of the research I have done suggests that steel frame studs are typically spaced 24" OC. I was going to do 16" OC unless you can tell me why I shouldn't.

Usually people start with an existing building, so it already has a ceiling even though it (ceiling) may have to be modified in many ways to accommodate mass/HVAC/electrical, etc.

Yes, I will be constructing inside a preexisting building. I believe I will be constructing 2 independent ceilings as I mentioned in my first post. The only connection between the 2 ceilings will be HVAC and electrical. So really there will be 3 ceilings total. The main building will have a ceiling. Then my control room will have a 2 leaf ceiling (2 layers drywall->joists->insulation-> air gap-> insulation-> joists-> 2 layers drywall) as to match my 2 leaf walls. I hope I sad that correctly?!

ricotrex wrote:

Thanks again for the quick reply and sketch. That helps so much. Since we are discussing steel framing, some of the research I have done suggests that steel frame studs are typically spaced 24" OC. I was going to do 16" OC unless you can tell me why I shouldn't.

I can tell you why not to do or to do a lot of things. Let us get some particulars out of the way first. Are you by trade involved in construction OR do you intend to have this framed up by qualified crafts-persons? Working with metal studs is a pain in the ass....and you don't know this yet but you are talking about structural metal studs, not your every day run-of-the-mill light gauge studs. Although you already have an existing ceiling that will have to be either modified or brought into the design with whatever limitations it brings, you will still be framing one(1) ceiling that will rest on top of these metal studs, so you can understand why they have to be able to support not only the weight of the individual metal stud but all the additional metal framing and the insulation and the sheetrock. By and large working with wood, even for the novice, is far better than working with metal for more reasons than I even care to go into.

ricotrex wrote:

Yes, I will be constructing inside a preexisting building. I believe I will be constructing 2 independent ceilings as I mentioned in my first post. The only connection between the 2 ceilings will be HVAC and electrical. So really there will be 3 ceilings total. The main building will have a ceiling. Then my control room will have a 2 leaf ceiling (2 layers drywall->joists->insulation-> air gap-> insulation-> joists-> 2 layers drywall) as to match my 2 leaf walls. I hope I sad that correctly?!

Actually there will be two ceilings. What you are attempting to do is develop a "mass/spring/mass" assembly. Mass with a decoupled area called the spring and another boundary of mass. Look into it.

So really there will be 3 ceilings total. The main building will have a ceiling. Then my control room will have a 2 leaf ceiling (2 layers drywall->joists->insulation-> air gap-> insulation-> joists-> 2 layers drywall) as to match my 2 leaf walls. I hope I sad that correctly?!

Well, you said it correctly, but the concept is wrong! :) You never, ever want to have three "leaves" around your room, if you can possibly avoid it. Three leaves is WORSE than two leaves for isolation, all other factors being equal. This is not intuitive, and sounds plain wrong, but it actually is plain right: a three leaf wall (or ceiling) will give you worse isolation than a two-leaf wall (or ceiling) of the same mass and dimensions. You will lose isolation in the low end of the audio spectrum, the place where kick drums and bass guitars live, which is the hardest part of the spectrum to isolate anyway. So by creating a 3-leaf ceiling, you would defeat your own purpose. No three-leaf. Or four-leaf Or one-leaf. Two and only two. - Stuart -

Some more comments on your original post:

the room does not have parallel side walls. Obviously this is to avoid any slap echo and or comb filtering issues.

Splaying the side walls will not do anything at all to slap echo or comb filtering. It might help with flutter echo, but that can also be dealt with using suitable acoustic treatment. You might want to splay your walls for other reasons (such as aesthetics, which you did mention), but comb filtering and slap echo are not it.

the listening position is rough 14.4 feet wide

Well, I've heard of big consoles and big chairs, but having a "listening position" that is 14 feet wide is a first! :) That must be some chair! :) Maybe you meant to say that the listening position is 14 feet into the depth of the room?

Any advice, comments, or concerns on this design would be much welcomed.

What is the purpose of those strange angled things that are cutting diagonally across your front corners, wasting the space where your speaker soffits or front bass traps should go? In fact, I'm not even sure if we are looking at the inner leaf or the outer leaf. What exactly is that diagram showing? If that's the inner leaf, then I'd suggest that you square of those front corners to maximize the use of space, then build proper speaker soffits across the corners, for all of the acoustic benefits that you get out of that.

I intend to use a sheet of MLV first on the concrete then place my footers on that to begin my framing.

Already mentioned above: MLV will do nothing for you. Just bolt your sill plates to the concrete, and caulk them carefully for the air-tight seal.

2. With the understanding that I am building a room within a room, do I construct two independent ceilings?

That depends on the rest of the building. If you already have an outer leaf, then you only add one additional ceiling, for a total of two leaves. Of you have no outer leaf, or if it is really far away, then you'll need to add an outer leaf that is decoupled from your inner leaf. I think you cannot answer this question until you find an actual building and see how it is constructed.

I assume this is how I would do it but I have been unable to find a lot of specific information of this topic.

You should be able to find plenty of info on that here! Search the forum for "MSM" and "MAM" and "isolation" and "decoupling" and "flanking path", and things like that. I'm looking at your sketchup image, and getting very confused: Fir the wall on the the right hand side, you seem to be showing a layer of drywall up tight against your outer leaf, but that drywall is attached to a stud frame. Why? Then you show another layer of drywall on the other side of those studs, (thus negating your isolation), followed by a set of studs with nothing at all on them. And for the other wall (at the bottom of the image), you seem to have a sheet of drywall floating in mid-air all by itself, in between the two sets of studs.... how does that work??? :shock: :!: - Stuart -

Hi Brein and Stuart, Brein I'll address your comments first and Stuart second. Brein

Let us get some particulars out of the way first. Are you by trade involved in construction OR do you intend to have this framed up by qualified crafts-persons?

No! I am not by trade involved in construction. Yes! If my budget permits I will have a licensed contractor do the framing for me. If its not in the budget I will more than likely consider using wood framing and do the job myself. I was intrigued by the idea of using steel because of Mr. Gervais's book which I have been studying. Secondly, I have a friend who just built a room using steel studs and he claimed it was not that difficult to do. I don't know how difficult it is to use steel framing or not I am just trying to get educated as best I can. Thanks for your advice.

Actually there will be two ceilings. What you are attempting to do is develop a "mass/spring/mass" assembly. Mass with a decoupled area called the spring and another boundary of mass.

I do understand this concept! I am currently looking at a building now that has 18' high ceilings. Is not my intention to build the outer leaf of my control room wall all the way to the top of the existing building ceiling. The cost of studs and drywall and insulation and caulk, etc...would probably put me way over budget. However, if you would argue that the effectiveness of doing it this way far outweighs the cost perhaps I should reconsider my entire plan, which of course is why I am here seeking advice from experienced people. I will draft up two scenarios and post them later to illustrate my plan verses what I believe you and Stuart are suggesting I should do. I don't have time right now, as I am at work. I will post them ASAP! Okay Stuart Now for you, First of all God Bless your miners!!! Second, thanks for the comments and advice. I have made a new drafting for you to look at as I can now understand why you were so confused when you looked at my first drafting. Hopefully this will be more clear as I have labeled different sections of the drafting and some new color.

Well, I've heard of big consoles and big chairs, but having a "listening position" that is 14 feet wide is a first! That must be some chair! Maybe you meant to say that the listening position is 14 feet into the depth of the room?

I do actually mean the width of the walls not how deep I will be sitting in the room. As I mentioned in my original post my room dimensions are based on the Sepmeyer ratio of 1: 1.60: 2.33 Since my ceiling is 9 feet tall, my wall width is 9x1.6=14.4 feet wide. What size control rooms do you work in? Just curious? 14.4 feet wide does not seem that wide to me and I work out of many different control rooms across town where the rooms are at least that wide.

What is the purpose of those strange angled things that are cutting diagonally across your front corners, wasting the space where your speaker soffits or front bass traps should go?

Hopefully this sketch better illustrates the room over all. The idea behind the angles up front is to minimize the front wall being parallel with the back wall. Keep in mind this picture does not show any acoustic treatment in the room yet, which of course I intend to do. It only shows basic wall construction.

my wall width is 9x1.6=14.4 feet wide. What size control rooms do you work in? Just curious? 14.4 feet wide does not seem that wide to me and I work out of many different control rooms across town where the rooms are at least that wide.

So your "listening position" is then actually NOT 14.4 feet wide! It is the ROOM that is 14 feet wide. Big difference. Terminology is important. The "listening position" is just what the words say: it is the place where you sit while you listen, which is practically always a chair. I've never seen a 14.4 foot wide chair.... I'm not trying to be pedantic: just pointing out that it is very important to use the right words, to avoid confusion.

First of all God Bless your miners!!!

Thanks! I don't know any of them personally, but I do know one of the engineers on the rescue team. They did an amazing job. Outstanding. :yahoo: - Stuart -

"Secondly, I have a friend who just built a room using steel studs and he claimed it was not that difficult to do. " I would hire him, because I would say differently. And there are many reasons that I said earlier that I would not go into, but you forced my hand :) In order to keep metal studs erect(standing straight up) a typical build out requires, by code, bracing from the top of the wall plate to the first available support base[see edit]...often the overhead ceiling. This connection makes a flanking path that can be subtracted if wood framing is used. OR you have to use resilient sway bracing to keep walls vertical. And you still spend the extra money on the heavier gauge metal. And I am fairly certain that you cannot span 14.4 feet with wood with less than 2X12 so you have to consider what that means in reference to a metal joist. There may be only one good reason to use metal structural gauge framing and that is that, based on a 24 inch layout, the wall is less rigid and has a better ability to isolate low frequency. Me...I defy you to tell me the difference when listening to the one [wooden] or the other[steel].:) EDIT: not only that, these types of framed walls have littlie to no ability to stand erect without bracing of some type, even if code is omitted, or common sense :) It requires a good understanding of the weight involved, the process involved and the environment that this framing will be introduced into. Certain you can do many of the same things that you would do with wood framed walls, which leads us right back to the reasons why you should use wood and refrain from using metal. The tolerance and span tables are not readily available and as such you wind up having to use more product[decoupling/support mechanisms] than you would otherwise not be hindered with in a typical wood framed structure. But if you are hell bent on it...go for it :)

Terminology is important. The "listening position" is just what the words say: it is the place where you sit while you listen, which is practically always a chair. I've never seen a 14.4 foot wide chair....

There you go Stuart. :mrgreen: No, I do understand that terminology is important. Thank you for keeping me straight. You and Brein are a big help. Are there any other questions or comments you have about my room design?

I'm looking at your sketchup image, and getting very confused:

Did the last images that I posted make sense? Brein Thank you for your last reply. That is very helpful information indeed! Wood it is! I have a few more questions for you Brein. 1. Do wood joists come in spans of 20'? The back of my room is almost 18' wide. I don't know how I would frame the ceiling if the joists aren't long enough to span that width. That being said... I don't understand the construction differences between non bearing and load bearing walls. It seems to me that I am going to have some very significant weight for a ceiling if in fact the joists come in 20' foot lengths. 2. Are my walls going to be able to handle that kind of weight? 3. Can you help me understand load bearing wall construction and what would be required for a scenario like mine?

:shock: I stand corrected! That sure as hell looks like a 14 foot wide "listening position" to me! OK, can we see the console and speakers to go with that, please??? :lol: :D

Did the last images that I posted make sense?

Much better! The method is good, now. Two-leaf, decoupled, big air gap, lots of mass. Perfect! But the angled diagonals at the front just aren't making any sense. You are wasting space there, for no real gain at all. Since you are showing the same shape for both your inner and outer leaf, that implies that you are going to build this a stand-alone structure, not connected to any other building, correct? In other words, you are going to pour a brand new concrete slab on empty land, and the slab will be the same shape as you show in your diagrams. Is that what you are planning? Because from what you said originally, you are still looking for a place to build this, and I was under the impression that you were planning to put this control room inside an existing building. I that is the case, then your outer leaf will be whatever shape the existing building permits! But anyway, getting back to those diagonal front corners: Even if we are only taking about the inner leaf, you don't need those angles. That space that you are cutting off should be used either for your speaker soffits, or for bass traps (if you don't plan to soffit mount). By slicing off the corner like that, you defeat both possibilities. You say that you want to do that to avoid flutter echo between the front and rear walls, but there are other, better ways of dealing with that. I'd really suggest that you re-think that. In fact, if you soffit-mount your speakers correctly, then you'd end up with a room that resembles that shape anyway, and you would not have flutter problems with that, since the speaker soffits themselves would be angled somewhat similar to what you show. So the big question is: Are you going to soffit-mount your speakers? - Stuart -

possibly some reinforced concrete and steel beams to reduce the span needed, divided into 3 sections across the room then run the ceiling joists long ways. maybe the building you're planning to put this in already has some options for this. the chair looks like it would cover the listening position but the desk looks too wide... :shock:

ricotrex wrote:

Brein 1. Do wood joists come in spans of 20'? 2. Are my walls going to be able to handle that kind of weight? 3. Can you help me understand load bearing wall construction and what would be required for a scenario like mine?

"I do not have a building yet in which to start my construction but I am currently looking." I think you need to satisfy this first. The actual building you get may not be anything like what you are designing for. A 20 foot span for a joist would most likely come in the form of wood I-beams. An alternative that Glenn touched on would be a beam (or two) designed to break up the overhead spacing and allow for shorter joists. But the installation of beams is an immediate reduction in head room since you have beam framing material that can be 12 inches tall, so in order to achieve a wall height of 9 feet you would need vertical space somewhere in the area of 10'-6"+/-. But installing wood I-beams would require the same environment since these products can be even taller than 12 inches, depending on the span. These walls are not specifically load bearing since this is reserved for walls that support rafters, upper floor walls, etc. But that as a reference, it is not uncommon for a simple stud wall to support all of the above mentioned items with no special modifications except those used in the instance that the wall might be an exterior perimeter, which will require shear bracing usually in the form of structural sheathing and/or vertical OSB at all corner sections and any other area of the framing that might be expected to have racking ability reduced at the framing level. I think any wood wall framed over 8 feet tall has to have horizontal blocking midway of the wall height, and that would be another form of making the framing more connected, more rigid with better ability to support overhead loads.

After taking some time and doing some more searching and reading on this site I am reconsidering my build entirely. Something I did not do in my first post was to clarify my goals. So here they are: 1. Design and build out a studio facility in a pre-existing building. The square footage requirement will be in the range of 2000 to 3000 sq. feet. Though I have not found the right building yet, I have already looked at several. They have not worked out for one or more reasons such as location being too close to airports or railroad tracks. It seems to me that I will be considering a warehouse type building as it will most likely be within my budget. Several warehouses that I have looked at are constructed of concrete block or brick walls on top of a concrete slab. The roofs have been sheet metal held up by steel beam trusses. 2. The studio design will incorporate two control rooms and two isolation booths built around a single live room. A good friend/fellow engineer and I intend to have our own separate control rooms and separate isolation booths built around a single live room. This will serve our needs best and will be the most efficient use of a single space for our particular circumstances. 3. Budget: $50k to $60k This budget is intended for securing proper building permits, construction materials including HVAC, electrical, and labor. This budget is not intended for recording equipment. After doing some more thinking and researching I am considering using insulated concrete forms or ICF’s for the general construction of interior walls, partitions and ceilings as opposed to traditional timber or steel stud construction. However, I do not fully understand how to implement ICF’s using the principle of mass spring mass in a two leaf wall system for isolation purposes. An ICF is made by pouring concrete between two layers of expanded polystyrene or (EPS). It seems to me I have to account for which role the EPS plays in an MSM model. Furthermore, if I attach drywall to one side of the EPS, what exactly have I created in regard to the MSM model? My theory is below. Please keep in mind I have no test data whatsoever to back up this theory. I am simply forming a hypothesis based on my understanding of the MSM principle and the compositional nature of ICF’s and EPS. My understanding of the compositional nature of EPS is such that there are thousands of tiny air molecules trapped in between thousands of polystyrene molecules. This is why it makes such an efficient thermal insulator. If this is not true than I am already off to a bad start and my logic for the basis of my entire theory may be faulty. However, if it is true consider the following: Because EPS is not extremely massive per se, I would not account for it as being part of the effective mass of an ICF. However, because it is directly coupled to the concrete of an ICF it is adding some mass to the surface of the concrete, even if only a little. So one could say that the EPS is actually a mass. Conversely, because there are thousands of tiny air molecules trapped in between the polystyrene molecules one could also say the EPS has thousands of tiny springs in it. With this in mind, if I then attach a layer of drywall to the EPS what is that I have created? Question: How would one define the following assembly in terms of the MSM principle? Concrete=Mass--->EPS=?---> Drywall=Mass. A. Is it one composite mass? B. Is it a mass spring mass? C. Is it a hybrid of some sort? D. Something other than the above choices? My answer is C because the EPS has some mass and some air as part of its composition. It has both mass and springs. If I constructed a room inside a room with ICF’s, how would you define what has been built in terms of the MSM principle?

there some interesting test data in this report regarding the coincidence dip related to the ICF. http://www.huduser.org/Publications/pdf/icfperf.pdf and this seems to behave similar to normal concrete walls. not sure if there is any test data relative to using ICF and a separate interior leaf. given the core is a single mass, my guess is simply leaving the interior insulation exposed and adding the separate inner walls (open to the ICF wall) should behave as expected.