Advice Requested for my Philly Rehearsal Studio Business

Hello everyone, This is my first post to this forum. I hope I'm correct in believing this is the most active studio construction forum on the net. I am a drummer and business minded person with a goal to open my own rehearsal/recording studio in the Greater Philadelphia area. I will say right now that I am a believer in what I call the 20/80 principle. For almost any application you can spend 20% of the most expensive comparison, but still get 80% of the outcome. You end up paying the remaining 80% to get the last 20% of product. In the studio sense an example would be that I can spend 20% the cost of the most expensive microphone on a lesser microphone, but still get much of the same use. If I want to have the top functionality (clarity) then I need to spend the remaining 80%. Understand? It's a curve similar to a learning curve. You can learn a lot quickly, but then the law of diminishing returns kicks in and it takes a lot more effort to learn the last 20%. I ONLY WANT TO SPEND THE 20%. The idea of the studio isn't to produce professional recordings or even provide the most solitary and isolated rehearsal spaces. It's much more of an economy studio business model. Initially I want to only open with two medium to large size rehearsal spaces with NO recording capabilities. As I gain some business I will reinvest to provide more rehearsal spaces as well as develop a recording studio. It too will follow the 20/80 rule. What I ask from you is to occasionally monitor this thread and engage me in discussion. I will be researching and posting what I believe are the best options for my business. Any input from all of you would be greatly appreciated. The current plan is to find at least a 4000 sq foot warehouse in the city that I can build out. The two rooms are the beginning and the remaining 4000 sq ft is to build into as the business grows. I expect very open spaces with more room to play with than most people building a home studio. Higher ceilings will also come in to play. I do not expect neighbors to be a tremendous issue as the studio will likely be in an industrial/manufacturing area. Although, sound levels will be respectfully considered just as I must worry about their sounds coming in. Anyways I'd like to start with some basic generalizations for the build. If you agree that what I've decided is best then please confirm or suggest alternatives that might work just as well for cheaper, work better for the same price, perhaps cost more but save a lot of hassle later on, or any combination of similar situations. FLOORS - Again I will be leasing out a warehouse space that likely was built to industrial codes. I'll expect much more reinforced and thicker concrete than 5" home flooring. Rod Gervais suggests that floating floors are generally unnecessary even with home construction cement floorings. Thus I will leave the floors as they are. They will not be the weak link in the system. Still, do you all suggest I cover them with anything? I have seen stains that look well, but I am worried that if I am leasing the space a stain product isn't the most reversible decision. How about painting them? Lay down hardwood or perhaps a few rugs? I want my customers to feel comfortable and not like they're in a cold warehouse. WALLS - The obvious consideration I am having right now is to use light gauge steel framing. It's easier to build with, cheaper, and isolates sound better. Can I confirm that using resilient channel is unnecessary with steel framing? I've seen posts and data comparing wood studs with RC to steel studs and the results are they're equal. What about steel studs with RC compared to wood studs with RC? Would it not be economical for me to do so? The rooms will be double frame two leaf systems. I will use double layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue between the layers. I haven't searched yet, but want to consider textured walls to treat the sound further. One question I have about light gauge steel framing is the issue with carrying loads. What loads would be unwise? Can I not support the ceiling with steel framing? I don't expect to hang any shelves or anything beyond picture frames on some walls. This is a commercial facility and things like shelves would be mostly unnecessary. What about windows? I do want to install windows for people to be able to look into the rooms. Would light gauge steel framing not be able to support glass or a heavy sound isolation door frame? Look at my door considerations for possible options. CEILINGS - This is one area I'd like serious advice on. Can light gauge steel framing support the ceiling by itself? What if the ceilings were more barn style rather than parallel to the floors? What height will you recommend? I am looking at single story warehouses that can have ceiling heights well above 20 feet. I don't need to build each room that high obviously though. What height do you suggest? DOORS - I am a little lost currently as to my best bet here. For example, if the light gauge steel framing can not support windows, perhaps I can purchase a professional grade sound isolation door with window panes? Is the cheapest option to build dual communicating doors since I can afford the space? I haven't checked yet, but I get the feeling two hollow core doors with simple seals and caulk along with a layer of MDF to the inside door might do better AND be cheaper than purchasing or building a single door construction system. Any thoughts on the matter? That's all I have for now. Future considerations are going to be electrical, HVAC, room dimensions and ratios, sound treatment (703?), and lighting. Want to throw anything else into the mix? I'm essentially trying to narrow everything down so I can find a contractor to build it out quicker than I could and also within code. I want to hang the drywall myself, but perhaps it might be better to have professionals hang it all in a day or two? It's a question of do I want to save $2000 or save 1 week. I'm going to need to look at the budget and permit regulations on hanging drywall in Philadelphia. I know it's early but does anyone want to throw out a decent cost estimate for the build if I were to hire a contractor? I'm still getting my finances in line. Construction is going to be the largest expense. I'm budgeting for around $40-$50k for construction to put up two large rehearsal rooms, a lounge, bathrooms, and a front office. Some days I feel like this isn't enough. Then some days I feel like that amount is much larger than will actually be needed since I'm not building any recording rooms and am not out for the perfect build. I'm sure HVAC has a lot to play into this regardless of what the room type is. Still I will have a lot of room to play with and expect a simpler build than most. Any thoughts? Thank you, Matt Will

sounds similar to another project in NYC... basically take a warehouse and convert it into multiple rehearsal rooms. my recommendation was to plan out a number of "large" and "small" rooms with some of the room pre-framed to allow windows to be added later to turn them into recording ready spaces. make each room fundamentally the same so its a cookie cutter approach so you know the future costs of expansion. each room is a separate unit which maximizes isolation and each has it's own venting etc so (zoned or individual units) to allow least amount of power consumption. building would need parking, security, an office, etc etc as you describe also. in fact, some rooms could be built and used as an "office" or "lounge" until you need to expand or there is pressure to rent more. given enough space, 1:1.4:1.9 room ratios could work - 10ft ceiling, 14ft wide, 19ft deep. construction wise, no reason steel framing couldn't be used all around. here's a plan view of that idea.

Thank you for the quick reply. Is this a studio already constructed in NYC? Do you know the name of it so I can find it online? Any estimates on cost for a 2 room/lounge/office/bathroom construction? The finances and forecasting are always the hardest part of writing a business plan. I like the idea of using one room as an office to later convert into a rehearsal space. That might save some money initially to build all the rooms equally. Obviously this will be a question for the contractor, but typically what is the largest expense in building a room? Framing/hanging drywall, what? I ask because I wonder if it makes sense to frame out 5-6 rehearsal spaces and only complete the two I mention right now. That way I get the bang for the buck in build costs and can quickly/easily complete the other rooms when necessary. Is a 10X14X19 room considered large? I would like to get an upright piano or even a baby grand for one of the rooms as I know piano players have a hard time finding places to play a real piano. Would those room dimensions make the space a little cramped with even an upright piano?

the owner is working out the building contract issues... my guess the power/ac/lighting will be costly depending on the design. the framing and drywall and insulation and plywood etc should be normal per ft2 material and costs for the most part. as far as large, in this case the 10x14x19 was considered a "large" because the owner felt that most rock band customers would find it "good enough" plus there was consideration for going over a 16ft span (for example) could change up the cost from 2x8 joists to 2x10 or trusses etc. if your clients want piano space, i'd consider going a bit larger - 10x15.1x21.4 (3230ft3) (Louden 39%) and focus on some really nice treatments. or even larger if you have enough demand - a really good size room (13x21x31) (Sepmeyer 1:1.6:2.33) might be worthwhile especially if it eventually becomes your "live room" for recordings...

Another issue to throw into the mix - Industrial electrical circuits and how they differ from residential circuits. Are they going to be more suited for reducing RFI and the such? I feel like this will be a case by case study for whatever building I decide to use. What are going to be the questions to arm myself with to direct the electrician? Again, since I'm not building the recording yet I think it might be a matter of telling them to not install dimmers, fluorescent lighting, etc. Some things I want to consider are keycard access locking mechanisms at least on the front door, security cameras, and motion detector light switches. Beyond that will be basic amps, pa systems, computers in the office, etc. HVAC may also be a case by case thing since I'm sure the warehouse will have some existing system already. I'll have to adapt to it when the time comes. Still it should be easier to install since I can run custom larger ducts above the rooms if the ceilings are 10-12" and the warehouse has 20" ceilings. Also, most likely the building will already have some sort of office space and bathrooms built in to the facility. I don't necessarily need to consider those as part of the build costs. That should lower my initial expenses tremendously in the beginning. Anyone want to throw a ball park figure out there for me that might make sense in a business plan? Got the name of a contractor today that I'll contact in the short future. Would be nice to at least compare what they'll quote me versus what you all expect. Just some thoughts I'm having. Chime in if you'd like.

The basic idea for electrical systems is to separate your circuits, so that your sound equipment does not share the same circuit as your lights, plugs, or other "dirty" loads. So you will have one set of circuits dedicated exclusively for your equipment, another set for lights, another for sockets, another for HVAC, etc. If your building has three-phase power, then you are even better off; you can separate your circuits by phase (as long as you balance the loads), to give you even better separation. You should also use star grounding for your equipment circuits, and one single clean good-quality ground for all of that. Major important point! That's the basic idea. - Stuart -

Thank you very much. That's exactly the type of info I need to take to the electrician along with Rod's book.

So I spoke with a contractor today and the obvious happened. He asked for a drawing of what I want to to. To sketchup we go. Rather than give him some basic drawings of 3-4 rooms and their dimensions I wanted to give him more exact diagrams that involve splaying the walls. So I'm wondering what the proper method for splaying is. I saw that 12 degrees should be the minimum you splay a wall. If you splay two walls then that can be minimized to 6 degrees of angle per wall. So that gives me several options as I've pictured below. Since this is going to be for a commercial space I want to use every sq foot as efficiently as possible. I figure for two rooms side by side I could do the configuration for the side walls as designated in the picture as A and B. The walls are splayed only 6 degrees. So then I decide to splay the back wall. Here's the tricky part. Consider you're building room A right now. How do you splay the back wall? Do you use room 1, 2, 3, or 4? Here are the differences. In rooms 1 or 2 the splay actually increases the room size. I took the rectangular dimensions of the room and extended them into a previous unused space. In rooms 3 and 4 I splayed the back wall such that it now reduced the size of the room. I have to ask this question because it somewhat confuses me in terms of what this would do to the proper room ratios. So for example, if I'm working on room A, which has a side wall that increases it's sq footage, do I then want to use one of the 3 or 4 rooms? If so, which one? Would I do the opposite when building room B which has a negative sq footage from the side wall splay and therefore want to use one of the room 1 and 2 splays? If so, which one? My instinct is telling me that if the side wall splay opens the room up, as in room A, then I would want to use the back wall splay displayed in room 3 so that the back right corner of the room would not have such a severe angle that makes the corner not very useful. Thus, when building room B I would then want to use the back wall splay in room 2 to again avoid the severe angle, but this time in the back left corner. Thus, the proper build configurations would be A3 and B2. Hope you understand that. Is this over thinking it? Can I avoid a back wall splay by increasing the splay between rooms A and B to 12-15 degrees instead of having to splay two walls or is splaying two walls always better? I do want to splay the ceiling at the 12 degree minimum, perhaps 15 degrees. Also, does splaying the ceiling avoid the need for a cloud installation? Thank you for any help, Matt UPDATE EDIT - I've decided to not splay the back wall. Instead I'll simple splay the walls as demonstrated in rooms 1 and 2. I will also splay the ceiling. The decision was to keep the build process easy and to keep room dimensions consistent. Any issues with modes and such can be corrected later with treatment.

Would anyone like to recommend a hallway width? I'm thinking 5 feet. At least that is what I'll propose in my initial draft to the contractor. Obvious considerations are going to be for moving pianos/organs in the rooms and for aesthetic reasons.

why are you splayyng the walls? This thread may help you decide about splaying, or not splaying the surfaces. Andre

i'd stick with a minimum of 5 feet for the hallway width. i'd make the rooms rectangular and then add treatments inside the room since you're going to need them whether you splay the walls or not... ceiling treatment will be needed as well. i'd opt for the rooms to be more live than dead because you can always bring in additional absorption to hang on the walls and ceiling if the situation calls for it or using gobos to break of the space.

AVare wrote:

why are you splayyng the walls? This thread may help you decide about splaying, or not splaying the surfaces. Andre

I was hoping and wondering when you'd chime in. It is an interesting discussion every time. I've seen that thread and have my thoughts on it. The first being that adding irregular wall patterns makes it more difficult to resolve any modal issues. There is a strong consensus to build parallel walls so diagnosing the problem becomes easier. Yet, splaying walls does help with flutter echos and comb filtering. There still is a need for bass traps though. That is why I wanted to build the walls splayed. Build out the room such that I wouldn't need drastic measures to diffuse and absorb the mids and highs, and then focus on bass traps. I do wonder, however, about the use of the room. The initial rooms I'm building are all rehearsal spaces. No recording rooms or mics unless someone wants to bring in their own for their time. Speaker placement for guitar and bass amps isn't going to be static and there are no monitors in the room. Is this a selling point for parallel surfaces then? I have the assumption that angled surfaces and even some treatments such as diffusors and absorbers are meant more for the speaker placement in the mixing booths or mic placement in the performance room? Thus, with only a use as a rehearsal space then can I build cookie cutter rooms and still have a limited need for sound treatment?

Question about ceilings. Assume I am in a single story warehouse. I don't have to create a "double wall" ceiling do I? The second leaf is going to be the actual warehouse ceiling. My only concern would be sound bleeding into neighboring rooms or escaping through the roof and into the surrounding businesses. The same would apply for walls that butt up against the perimeter wall of the warehouse. In these scenarios it is better to budget for four layers of drywall and install them all on the inside wall while insulating fully to the warehouse perimeter wall. Correct? Please confirm.

I just sent me first rough draft to the contractor. The attached image of what I'd like built is below. Here is also the set of high level instructions I had for him. At this point he isn't so much concerned about proper build technique as he is about the linear sq footage of the build. Do you think I worded everything properly? Can you tell I'm not a contractor? Ed, We spoke 2 days ago about a music studio/rehearsal space I'm planning for the Northern Liberties area that I'd like an estimate from you about. I've attached a VERY simple 3D rending of how I'd like the space to start. Here are a few considerations while looking at the image. 1. The yellow walls are 12" thick. They are constructed by applying two layers of drywall per side so 4 layers total per wall. Each set of 2 pieces of drywall then has a layer of "green glue" applied between them. This is a special sound isolating membrane. Information about it can be found here: http://www.greengluecompany.com/ Between the sets of 2 drywall pieces will be filled with your standard R11, R13 or whatever proper pink insulation would fit best. Here is an illustration of a wall cutout. http://www.bobgolds.com/WallCharts/Quad ... eafSTC.gif I am requesting the construction on the far right with the STC of 69. 2. Light gauge steel framing 25 gauge or below can be used throughout the entire space. No walls are load bearing. I'd like a staggered stud configuration between the two walls. 3. For each doorway into the yellow rehearsal spaces there will be two doors. One for the inner wall and one for the outer wall. Each will be a solid core in that they can be filled with sawdust or particle wood for economics. The most important function are the door seals to insure sound isolation. 4. You can see an opening in the right yellow room to the right of the door. This is a 3X5 double window. Both the inner and outer walls need their own separate glass. Each rehearsal space has their own 3X5 window. 5. The room in the center is a simple lounge area I put together. I want to create a sort of 'fishbow' effect where the room is surrounded by a halfwall and then glass on the top half to give the entire space an open feeling. The walls for the halfwall do not need the same sound isolating techniques as the rehearsal spaces. Single layers of drywall are ok. There are no doors to the lounge. There are only openings as you can see. 6. The purple wall in the back is a faux wall. Depending on your estimate will determine how many rooms I can build out initially. The idea is to start with only a few rooms and then as the customer base grows the studio will grow as well. If I can only afford to start with the two rooms then this wall can be a simple single layer drywall wall with no insulation in the back to later be modified when constructing more rooms. 7. Ceilings would be the same construction as the walls except with only one side. Two layers drywall with green glue. 8. This model assumes that the building I will lease already has an office and bathroom facility. 9. While the model shows full 12" walls all around both rehearsal areas, this will not be the case. For any wall that butts up against a perimeter wall of the leased space then I do not need the dual wall assembly. I would only need the one inside room wall as the outer perimeter wall can act as the second wall. R13 insulation would still fill the space. 10. Flooring - Can you quote me a price with and without installing the economy/tough/commercial grade laminate wood flooring? Obviously if you have any questions please don't hesitate to call me. Thank you, Matthew WIll

you don't need to stagger the studs on the dual wall configuration. if you're putting a massive ceiling (since the ceilings will be the isolation weak point) on the rehearsal rooms, the walls will be load bearing the structural (dead) weight. you'll want to sort out the span for the ceiling to hold the drywall, electric, treatments, etc etc

Matt Will wrote:

I was hoping and wondering when you'd chime in. It is an interesting discussion every time. I've seen that thread and have my thoughts on it.

My pleasure. I am glad to read that the decision to splay surfaces is an informed one, not "I see done in other studios".

The initial rooms I'm building are all rehearsal spaces. No recording rooms or mics unless someone wants to bring in their own for their time. Speaker placement for guitar and bass amps isn't going to be static and there are no monitors in the room. Is this a selling point for parallel surfaces then? I have the assumption that angled surfaces and even some treatments such as diffusors and absorbers are meant more for the speaker placement in the mixing booths or mic placement in the performance room? Thus, with only a use as a rehearsal space then can I build cookie cutter rooms and still have a limited need for sound treatment?

Good question. Think of it as a business decision. Will having better acoustics, which will make the room better to perform in, sell more time or permit you to charge more in your market? In my part of the world, well Hamilton, there are no treatment rehearsal spaces and there are well treated spaces. Different price points. Andre

Sadly I think the spaces will sell without treatment. The demand in large cities can be overwhelming to where businesses close their doors to new customers. I'm sure you've all seen this. Still, offering a better product should always be a goal for any business. Treating the rooms will be something I ultimately do. Should I read into it that you are against splaying every surface including ceilings? Do you disagree that splaying a surface reduces flutter echoes and aids in diffusion of higher frequencies? Or is it just that you're willing to do a room by room analysis and build the proper treatment based on simpler geometry presented by parallel surfaces? I'm surprised I haven't seen a lot of billiards references in studio design and construction yet.

gullfo wrote:

you don't need to stagger the studs on the dual wall configuration. if you're putting a massive ceiling (since the ceilings will be the isolation weak point) on the rehearsal rooms, the walls will be load bearing the structural (dead) weight. you'll want to sort out the span for the ceiling to hold the drywall, electric, treatments, etc etc

What is the massive ceiling? I posted a question about this recently. Since I will be in a single story warehouse, presumably, the actual warehouse ceiling will be my second leaf right? Thus I just need to install one layer of double drywall with green glue. If necessary I then install some insulation on the warehouse ceiling, although not entirely necessary as the air gap may be several feet and insulation is only a dampener in the air gap and not another mass. My only worry was sound from the other rehearsal rooms bleeding through the ceiling into the room. How is that going to work?

Matt Will wrote:

Should I read into it that you are against splaying every surface including ceilings? Do you disagree that splaying a surface reduces flutter echoes and aids in diffusion of higher frequencies? Or is it just that you're willing to do a room by room analysis and build the proper treatment based on simpler geometry presented by parallel surfaces?

Splaying surfaces is an option. It is neither better or worse than parallel surfaces. I go both ways. To repeat what I wrote, I am glad that you are making an informed decision. Andre

it wasn't clear to me that you would build the wall all the way up to the warehouse ceiling. in most cases the lower room height (say 10ft in a 20ft high warehouse) would be a lot less construction material for the walls, and the ceiling will likely need isolation from outside noise (as well as emitting it...) and the lower ceiling makes easier access for HVAC, electric etc to be built. simply splaying is an option as it could reduce the treatments needed for flutter echo and where overall room response is less of a concern. even so, hanging drapes (fire retardant) or scatter absorption panels around the room can easily get most of the flutter echoes under control in a rectangular room.

gullfo wrote:

it wasn't clear to me that you would build the wall all the way up to the warehouse ceiling. in most cases the lower room height (say 10ft in a 20ft high warehouse) would be a lot less construction material for the walls, and the ceiling will likely need isolation from outside noise (as well as emitting it...) and the lower ceiling makes easier access for HVAC, electric etc to be built.

I see. No I would not be building all the way up to a 20 ft warehouse ceiling, for example. This is why I asked. I was wondering if an air gap of greater than 4 feet would still be considered part of a M-A-M system. Here is the proper question. Solve for 'X' If I build a 10 foot ceiling with the first leaf dimension reaching around 10.75' with insulation then I should build a second leaf for the ceiling if the building ceiling is at or above 'X' feet in height.

i would simply build a ceiling over each room. each one is fully self-contained. the warehouse ceiling (unless it's leaking) would stay as-is. not sure i'd need to build an outer isolation wall except on the end units (which is what i think you were describing). ceiling might be enough to have steel framing with 2x drywall inside and outside. if not, then a second ceiling sitting on the exterior isolation wall should do it. ceiling penetration is only via the HVAC silencers and some electrical.

Matt Will wrote:

I was wondering if an air gap of greater than 4 feet would still be considered part of a M-A-M system. Here is the proper question. Solve for 'X'.

Yes it is a MAM system. The frequency is so low that you do not have to worry about it. Andre

AVare wrote:

Matt Will wrote:

I was wondering if an air gap of greater than 4 feet would still be considered part of a M-A-M system. Here is the proper question. Solve for 'X'.

Yes it is a MAM system. The frequency is so low that you do not have to worry about it. Andre

See now you just confused me. guilfo is saying I should still build a double wall installation for the ceilings. What I gather from your response, however, is that the distance between the first leaf and the warehouse ceiling could be so great that the frequency is low enough for no noticeable affect. I assume you meant frequency of the air spring. Or, more likely, any frequencies which are long enough to pass through the first layer, travel another 4 feet to the ceiling, and return. At which point they would have traveled such a long distance that their energy would be greatly reduced and therefore present no affect to the sound levels in the room. Am I reading you right?

the reason for the double ceiling is to make sure it is consistent with your walls. ultimately the large air gaps from the room ceiling to the roof shouldn't be a problem but within the building you would have sound coming out of each room and potentially transferring to another room. so inside 2x drywall -> joist/insulation -> top 2x drywall (imho) would give you plenty of isolation for a given room. one option would be to leave the top drywall layer off and see if you experience a problem and you could add it later...