Temp Studio Build in Baltimore, Maryland...Help Needed.

Hello, I've been granted permission by my father to build a studio of sorts in the basement as long as I finish the basement room first - fair trade. But, of course, there are some rules that I have to abide by and they do make for a speed bump in the build. The first and biggest rule of the build is that any walls I put up to split the rooms have to be temporary and they have to be put in after the room is finished. When I say finished, I mean 4 walls, a ceiling, and probably some carpeting. That's how my father wants the room to be when I leave, so he can have his basement as a regular old room. The room is a good size, 30ft by 20ft. The walls are concrete blocks and the floor is concrete as well. The ceiling isn't finished and we have the beams exposed and everything. It looks like the typical everyday unfinished basement. I'd like to split it in half because my brothers band would like the recording/iso room to practice in. So each room would be roughly 15ft by 20ft. The other reason behind this is because of the support pole in the dead middle of the room. I'll have to try and insulate the crap out of that some how so it doesn't ring all the time. I'd say I have a solid budget of around 5-6,000 to work with, but I'm hoping to buy some equipment with that money aswell, so I don't want to use it all if I don't have to. There are 3 windows in this room which could prove to be a problem. There is also a big sliding glass door. I have done a lot of reading on these forums as well as in books that I've bought and in school, but I still don't understand it all fully, obviously. I did a sketchup of my basement and how I can see it working out right now but I know it's not the best design right now. I'd like to grab some advice and take in as much knowledge as I can from you all before I dive into this head first. Thanks! -Patrick http://www.poopftw.com/Patspix/Basement%20Studio2.skp

"The first and biggest rule of the build is that any walls I put up to split the rooms have to be temporary..." You did not mention how tall the basement is...8 feet? Temporary isolation walls do not exist, in the sense that you can just "take them down". To be the most effective to meet your isolation requirements, that you did not mention so we guess 110dB, you may have to build walls for each room/half that never meet each other and you would pay a lot of attention massing up the overhead/ceiling, then you would have joists installed directly on top of the new framed walls for the two individual rooms and add several layers of sheetrock to the newly installed joists. You can see how this is no longer temporary. If you just built new walls all around the perimeter, added mass to the bottom side of the upper floor and then had a decoupled ceiling installed via clips and hat-track or possibly RC-2, replaced all doors with solid core doors with proper gasketing, built window plugs for any windows, re-worked any HVAC ducts to reduce air-borne passage you could play there but the isolation would be completely different than if you actually broke all the flanking paths between the two rooms and installed a seperate ceiling onto the newly framed walls. Good luck,

Brien, Thank you for the response, plenty of food for thought in that one. I apologize for missing out on some of the information, 110dB would be the ideal level. And yes, the ceiling is 8ft tall. Sadly I only have so much say in the build as it's not my property, so I have to abide by a set of rules. I really appreciate your response and I'll update as I push farther into understanding this all even better. Thanks, -Logan

After talking to my parents, Isolation doesn't really seem to be that big of an issue. The basement is halfway underground, so the recording room will be underground. The neighbors are pretty far away and in the opposite direction of where the sound will mostly be escaping from. The only real concern would be sound getting to the top floor, but they insist on putting in a Drop or Suspended ceiling, so that sort of defeats that. I suppose my main concern is proper design for the best recording and acoustics. Still reading...

The only real concern would be sound getting to the top floor, but they insist on putting in a Drop or Suspended ceiling, so that sort of defeats that.

Well, maybe you should warn them in advance that their insistence on using useless things like that will mean that there will by zero isolation between your room and the rest of the house, so they will be subject to hearing whatever it is that you are doing down there. You might want to also remind them that they cannot wish their way around the laws of physics. The laws of physics apply to everyone, all the same. Just because they happen to like drop ceilings will not make their drop ceilings into useful sound isolation: the drop ceilings will remain just as useless as ever, regardless of how much they want them to work.

110dB would be the ideal level.

You want 110 dB of isolation????? :!: :shock: I doubt that there is any studio on this planet that good. The best I ever heard of is 100 dB of isolation, and that was designed by some of the best people in the business, had no limitations at all, and ate up a multi-million dollar budget... About the best you can hope for in a basement is around 60 to 70 dB, unless you want to spend some serious money. But if it has to be temporary and based on drop ceilings, then you'd be luck to get 30 dB of isolation. That isn't really worth doing at all, if you ask me.

After talking to my parents, Isolation doesn't really seem to be that big of an issue.

:shock: ??? :!: Let me get this straight: Your brother is going to have a full rock band down in one half of that room, you are going to try to mix something entirely different in the other half, the rest of the family is upstairs on the other side of a thin, low mass barrier, you have windows and sliding glass doors to the outside world, and isolation is NOT an issue????? :lol: You are kidding, right? How can isolation NOT be an issue? :roll:

The neighbors are pretty far away and in the opposite direction of where the sound will mostly be escaping from.

Sound does not escape "in one direction". Once it is outside, it is outside and spreads spherically. Low frequency sound is not directional: It propagates equally well in all directions, and wraps around small objects (such as houses) as though they were not even there. So it doesn't matter which direction your neighbors are, they will hear your brother's drums perfectly well. I hope they like drums.

When I say finished, I mean 4 walls, a ceiling, and probably some carpeting.

Carpet in a studio is a bad idea. It is selective, absorbs the wrong frequencies and does not absorb the right ones. Sorry if I sound harsh, but this looks like you are setting yourself up for failure. Based on what you have said so far, you simply cannot do what needs to be done in order for this to be workable. For such a situation, isolation is paramount, yet you cannot get any. You cannot beat the laws of physics by hoping that they wont apply to you: they still will. You need isolation before anything else. Spending money on treatment and equipment for a room that cannot be isolated just seems pointless. But that's just my opinion, FWIW. - Stuart -

Stuart,

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this looks like you are setting yourself up for failure.

I take absolutely no offense to anything you have said - you're just trying to help, which I appreciate greatly.

Sound does not escape "in one direction"

I understand sound doesn't travel in just one direction, I was saying that the house is underground on one side of the house as opposed to the other side. Where the windows start on the longer wall is where the dirt is just low enough to put one in. So, I assume that the sound will be stopped better on that side of the house as opposed to the side with the door, windows, etc. The side with the door aims into the woods, no one in sight. I know they'll still hear the drums, but not as well as if they were on the side where to doors sit. Maybe I'm just way off - if so I apologize.

You want 110 dB of isolation????? :!: :shock:

Thank you for correcting my ridiculous dB quote - I didn't realize what I had said (Obviously), hahaha.

the drop ceilings will remain just as useless as ever, regardless of how much they want them to work.

I completely agree with the drop ceiling idea and I will be confronting them about it and trying to have them see differently. I think the thought of hearing drums and other loud noises all day will help convince em'. I agree with you on the "Not worth doing at all" bit, that's exactly what I thought once they said "Drop ceiling". The thing that might help convince em' is that their bedroom is right above this studio.

How can isolation NOT be an issue? :roll:

I suppose Isolation wouldn't be much of an issue because there isn't much I can do about it if they just say no. And if that's the case there's a good chance I might just ditch the whole build as I can just mix whatever I want in my bedroom on the other side of the house and save a ton of money. The rock band's his problem :D. Thanks again guys, tons of help.

Stuart, "You want 110 dB of isolation????? :!: :shock: I doubt that there is any studio on this planet that good. " 110 dB of isolation was not the reference, but how loud do those guys play... You A.D.D.?

Logan's brother here. Thanks for all of the information, everyone. Just to clarify a few things, the sketchup is about exactly what we're looking for in terms of splitting the room and the respective sizes. I will have my band in the iso room (standard 5 piece band, vocalist, 2 guitars, bass guitar, and drums) and my brother will have the engineering room for his equipment. The isolation portion of things is important, but not for the sake of the neighbors. I used to have the drums sitting in the corner with two windows, sometimes opened during the day, and the neighbors have never complained. On the right side of our house is entirely woods, the front is about a 200 ft distance, and the neighbors on the left are probably 300-400ft away. Behind us (directly outside the glass door) is nothing but woods. After reading through most of your comments, it seems to be rather hopeless to get this working as we had initially intended. So I ask of you, what is the next best solution? As my brother said, he isn't so much concerned about the recording of acoustic and electric instruments like I am, so he can stay put in his bedroom and not much will change. I'm mostly interested in having a place to practice in the basement that doesn't sound like total crap when all of the members are playing their instruments. In that case, something tells me I could get away with something much less complicated if I'm not interested in recording, right?

Do acoustic treatment. Best isolation for you guys is make a good agreement between you 2 guys and your parents on when to practise/record/rehearsal etc.

Well, honestly, whether we do this build or not, I'm having band practice downstairs that adheres to a certain schedule deemed by my parents. Our goal isn't to necessarily make this room so we can practice without bothering my parents, it was intended to be for recording. But, given the nature of the responses that we've received, it seems as though we don't have the proper room for such a build. I suppose I'll have to consider just doing the acoustic treatment as you have suggested, and instead pay for someone to do my recordings.

I wouldn't give up hope entirely! Rather, I would try to set your goals more realistically, and re-think the entire plan. As you'll often here folks say here "If that's what you've got, then that's what you've got. You just have to make the best of it". One of the original problems here was the insistence on using "acoustic treatment" that really won't do you any good at all. Carpet on the floor is a bad idea, acoustically. Temporary walls in studios are not realistically possible. And Drop ceiling are not meant to do what you are proposing. They are meant for offices, and are designed to deal with typical office noises, such as voices speaking and general background office noise. They work well in that environment, but they are next to useless for a studio with a rock band in it! They also do not isolate. That is not their purpose. They treat. There is a huge amount of confusion in the general public about the difference between acoustic "isolation" and acoustic "treatment". In reality, they are two totally different and even mutually exclusive things. Materials that isolate rooms well, are pretty bad at treating it. And materials that treat rooms well are pretty bad at isolating. It is a common misconception that isolating is the same as treating, that if you put things like egg crates and carpets on the walls, or even proper acoustic foam, then that will stop sound from getting through to the next room: it won't. It might make the room sound different, perhaps even better, but it will do nothing at all to stop sound getting in or out of the room. Isolation and treatment are entirely different, totally separate, acoustic issues. That seems to be the basic issue here. The very first post from you guys says that you are stuck with rules imposed by your parents, and those rules include things that just will not work, such as carpet on the floor, a drop ceiling, and the walls have to be temporary. The problem is not the room: The problem is the rules that have been imposed on how to treat it! In essence, the rules totally PREVENT anything useful being done! That's the issue. Those rooms could probably be made to work great as a really nice live room (practice room, studio, tracking room, whatever name you want to give it), and a pretty decent control room (mixing room, engineering room). You have a reasonable amount of space, you have a reasonable basic structure, you have reasonable isolation needs, you have a reasonable budget, and your goals are reasonable. But the restrictions aren't reasonable. Let me put it this way: If your parents said "You can have drums in there, but the shells have to be made only of plastic, and the heads have to be cardboard, and the cymbals can only be made of tire rubber, and the sticks and beaters must be made of old shoe leather", then what would you say to that? Clearly, it is a lost cause: There simply is nothing at all you can do to get a usable drum kit, given those restrictions! It is pointless to even try. The restrictions themselves prevent success from the outset. That is the issue here: You guys have a good space, it could be made great, but not with the limits that are being imposed on you. So here's the plan: I'd suggest that your first approach would be to get the restrictions lifted. Your build can be done in such a way that what you do is "removable", but not in such a way that it is "temporary". In other words, you won't be able to re-use much of the materials afterwards, since you will have to damage them to take them out. But the need to make them removable (not temporary) can be designed in from the start: (screws instead of nails, bolted "modules" instead of nailed framing, no gluing, etc..) Problem solved! It can be done: just re-define your goals, realistically. It seems that the big issue with your parents is not how the room will look while you guys are using it, but how it will look afterwards. Fine: The room can be left looking good afterwards, by painting the walls and laying carpet and installing a drop ceiling, if that's what you want, but those restrictions CANNOT be part of the actual build, since they fly in the face of what needs to be acoustically to make your rooms work! Carpet on the floor? Bad idea, acoustically. Drop ceilings? Bad idea, acoustically. Temporary walls? Bad idea, acoustically. But it can be done after you take out the removable stuff! Your original post says:

When I say finished, I mean 4 walls, a ceiling, and probably some carpeting. That's how my father wants the room to be when I leave, so he can have his basement as a regular old room.

OK, then the deal you make with your dad should be this: When you take out the studio, you will do exactly what he wants: You will leave the room with 4 walls, carpet on the floor, and a drop ceiling. You will set aside enough of your budget upfront to cover those minor costs of re-finish after you dismantle the studio. Problem solved! Re-set your goals. If your folks accept that deal, allowing you to do what NEEDS to be done now, then putting it back their way AFTERWARDS, then you guys can make a go of this thing. But you cannot make a go of it, if those restrictions have to be part of the studio! Lets look again at what you have:

The room is a good size, 30ft by 20ft. ... And yes, the ceiling is 8ft tall.

Great! Nice dimensions!

The walls are concrete blocks and the floor is concrete as well.

Excellent! That makes a GREAT outer leaf for a studio! Hard to get better than that.

The ceiling isn't finished and we have the beams exposed and everything.

Fantastic! You already have access to what you need up there, for both good isolation AND good treatment!

It looks like the typical everyday unfinished basement.

Perfect! Just what the doctor ordered! You don't need to tear down anything before you start. So right now you have the best possible situation. But if you are forced to cover up that GOOD stuff by hanging a drop ceiling, carpeting the floor, and building thin flimsy temporary walls, then basically you destroyed everything good about the room, before you even started. That's the issue. I'd really suggest that you re-negotiate this with your parents, and explain to them the false goals that they are setting, and how those restrictions are going to mean that you won't actually be able to use the room at all. They seem to be quite reasonable parents (after all, they DID give you guys permission to take over their entire basement, and play really loud music in it!!!! :!: :shock: How cool is that??? ) so perhaps if you just talk to them! Even print out this post and show it to them, and just agree that when you guys are done and remove the studio, THEN you will leave the basement they way they want it. That should enable everyone to be happy and get what they want. Just re-define your goals, and re-negotiate the deal, so it is win-win. Worth a try, I reckon! :) - Stuart -