Really small home mix room - sketchup file links included

Hi Guys, this is a really amazing forum you have here. I have taken the advice of people on here and drawn up my room to scale on Sketchup (what a great free program it is - thanks for the advice) Anyway, I have a bit of a dilemma. I bought my first house, but with the british market the way it is I wasnt able to afford anything this close to the city centre with a decent sized spare room for mixing. Unfortunately other things such as distance to work are a higher priority, but I;m willing to make do with what I have for now. The room I'm using is 10'4" x 8'3" x 7'5" high, with a small recess at the back of the room (see the image with dimensions and I have included the sketchup file if anyone needs a more indepth view - The sofa in the recess is optional, I figured it would absorb some unwanted energy if you dont agree tell me and its gone) I work mostly in the box, I never record and mic'd stuff at home. I do also have access to proper studios for final mixdowns and mastering. This room at home is just for arrangement and rough mixdown really, so its no the end of the world that this room is not ideal. I use tannoy active reveal midfield monitors, I dont play loud on a daily basis, I know the size of the room will affect how loud I can realistically go anyway. I have some excellent Audio Technica headphones for refernce when needed, oh and sound leakage isnt really a concern as the neighbours arent close and my girlfriend is tolerent ;-) All the walls are standard drywall onto wood frame, the far wall with the speakers against them is also the same but with brick behind it, and the floor is carpet. Basically I am looking to make the room as neutral as possible for under £1,000. I dont mind if I go a little over budget. I will be doing all of the work my self. After reading the forum I have considered full height resonators in each corner, and perhaps offsetting the 2 side walls to an indent of say 6" on each side, then have slats at varying widths to create different sized chambers (am I right in thinking this is a resonator??) I have to admit I'm not fully confident on how to make the right bass traps for my room, so any advice here would be greatly appreciated. What about the ceeling, are there things I can hang to help improve the acoustics? Sorry if all my questions at the end are a bit vague, I must admit I am a novice at this. I hope I have provided enough information here. Here is the link for my sketch up file https://rcpt.yousendit.com/939387233/1046365052e2bc3af13f61063998eff3 (expires on 08/09/10 - shout me if you want the file after this time) I look forward to any advice you guys can give, I really appreciate all the hard work that goes on in this forum. Thanks

Hello autophase, I am no expert here, but I have worked through the same issue of having a small space that I needed to work in. I designed something for you similar to what I built in my home. I am getting great results in my room and it was cheap enough that I could continue to save money for when I begin building my garage out into a small studio. The design I did for you includes superchunks in the front corners, a super superchunk in the rear, 2'x4'x4" panel absorbers on the walls spaced symmetrically 2" off the walls, and a 4'x4'x4" panel absorber spaced 2" off the front wall. I also suggest packing insulation into the cavity of the window and then drywalling over it. I left the blinds up between the insulation and the window and from the outside it still looks like a normal window. Like I said, it's basically my room but a bit smaller and I love it for what it is. I think this is a very good starting place for you and should be able to be accomplished for around $1000. The only other issue that you will need to work through is the first reflection points on the ceiling. With a height of only 7'5" it will make you feel very cramped by hanging a cloud but if you want to really use this room to mix I highly suggest it. If you are interested, I will take a few pictures of my room for you when I get home later... If you have the money and time, you can go with what you initially hinted at with the resonators and other more laborious and costly solutions. For reference, check out John's bedroom design at http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download/file.php?id=5787 and Kendale's build at http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4091. Kendale's is a great design for a room in a home but he had A LOT more space than you do. He does document construction of building his resonators very well for you though. Hopefully this well get you started or one of the experts on here can step in and correct me if I was wrong about anything or just add to what I've said.

Whoops, just realized the front absorber is 6" in the picture but I described as a 4" spaced 2" off the wall. also, if you want the sketchup file, just pm me your email address.

tgauge wrote:

Whoops, just realized the front absorber is 6" in the picture but I described as a 4" spaced 2" off the wall. also, if you want the sketchup file, just pm me your email address.

Thanks so much for the advice dude. I'm goning to start with the 2 front superchunks, and stuff the recess this weekend. Shares in rockwool will rise i suspect......

No problem. Good luck. ...and don't forget to post pictures when you're finished.

oh one more thing. Is rockwool the best materal? or are there better fibreglass insulations to buy. I'm in the UK if anyone can suggest the best to get and where to get it from. Thanks

Mineral wool is fine. So is ordinary pink fluffy fiberglass. But density is important: Look for something in the range of 48 kg/m3, roughly (that's for mineral wool: a bit lower lower density is better for fiberglass). Styrofoam and similar closed-cell insulation products are useless for this: it has to be open cell. - Stuart -

Thanks for the advice. I have another question, I have looked at a few panel constructions, and I see 2 main differences and I'm not sure which is best for my setup. Is it best to make a frame 6" deep and fill it all the way and mount this panel directly onto the wall. Or should I make a frame 6" deep and only fill it 4" deep to leave a 2" air gap inside the fram between the panel back and the wall? I'm going to use this stuff http://www.soundservice.co.uk/acoustic_mineral_wool_AMW.html Is that a decent price (any UK people??) Also would this be big enough for my front corner super chunks each sheet would yield 4 triangles of 600mm x 600mm, with the out facing length being approx 850mm, is that sufficient? Thanks

It depends what you are trying to do! For the same thickness of absorption, leaving an air gap behind the panel extends the range down to lower frequencies, and increases effectiveness. Putting it right up against the wall tends to limit it more to higher frequencies. There is also the issue of angle of incidence: When a sound wave hits the panel "head on", then it "sees" the thickness of the panel, but when it hits at an angle (as most waves do), then it sees a greater thickness. Absorption works on the velocity component of a sound wave, not the pressure component, and right at the wall velocity is zero, for waves arriving at a high angle of incidence. So right at the wall, the absorption is doing nothing at all for waves arriving head-on. But for waves arriving at non-normal angles, there is some velocity component right at the wall boundary, and the absorption at the boundary is doing something for those waves. So if you leave a gap, you are moving the absorption further away from the zone where normal waves aren't affected (only non-normal waves), and more into the zone where all waves are affected by it. But you could get the same effect by just making the panel thicker. But that would be more expensive... It gets rather complex... Basic rule of thumb: leaving a gap behind the panel makes it more effective at lower frequencies and for higher angles of incidence. The bigger the gap, the lower it goes. But if you are leaving a really large gap, then you might as well fill part of it with more absorption, to increase the effectiveness even more. I guess that probably confused yo more than helped you! It even confused me, just writing it.... :) :shock:

I'm going to use this stuff

Looks like it should work fine, but if you can find plain old ordinary mineral wool of similar density at cheaper prices, then go for that instead. And if you can get OC 703, then your problems are solved! Just use that. - Stuart -

ha ha, well what you say does make sense to a certain degree. as I'm going to have 6 side panels and a big front one i think I might try it both ways, make the side panels the same size so they can be interchanges and see which will be more effective. I think I will air gap the front panel as well as I have superchunks at the front and rear. I added a little edit to my quesiton above regarding the triangular superchunks. Sorry to be a pest, after this you might not hear from me afor a few weeks as ill be upto my neck in insulation. :lol:

Also would this be big enough for my front corner super chunks each sheet would yield 4 triangles of 600mm x 600mm, with the out facing length being approx 850mm, is that sufficient?

Yup, that's a pretty decent size! And don't forget the number one rule here: "No photos means it didn't happen!" So don't forget to poke your camera out of your insulation nest every now and then, and snap some pics so we can see too! :) - Stuart -

And don't forget the number one rule here: "No photos means it didn't happen!" So don't forget to poke your camera out of your insulation nest every now and then, and snap some pics so we can see too! :)

The least I could do :yahoo:

Erm, I do actually have one more question. Mineral wool : Is it like fibre glass in that I'll need a mask, glasses and overalls? Or is it a lot more friendly to handle?

Mineral wool : Is it like fibre glass in that I'll need a mask, glasses and overalls?

It's similar, yes. Personally, I don't find it to be nearly as bad as fiberglass from the "itch" point of view, but its still not something that you'd want to use to make underwear! :shock: :) I'd wear the same kind of stuff that you'd use for fiberglass. The other thing you could consider is semi-rigid fiberglass panels, such as 703, which is quite a bit friendlier (but still nowhere near perfect). - Stuart -

I need to make a change to this design. What if I was to store a single matress in the recess at the back of the room, and make 2 of the rear panels removable so I could take the matress out. I was wondering if this would have a drastically negative effect on the absorbtion of the room. Again I know this isnt ideal but I've got to make do with what I have. Thanks

Well, depending on what the mattress is made of, it probably won't be much use to you acoustically, but it seems like you are not proposing that anyway: you just want to use the nook at the back to store the mattress. I don't see a problem with that. If the mattress is made of closed-cell foam, then it wont be doing much for your room anyway, and if it is made of something like feathers, then the effect would probably be beneficial. My $0.02 - Stuart -

Glad to hear you are about to move forward. I'll just throw my two cents in really quickly as it looks like Stuart has had the chance to take care of you on this one. 1) Hiding the mattress back there is fine as long as you don't mind losing some of your bass trapping and don't expect it do anything for you acoustically. 2) Make sure to wrap either a) the mattress or b) the back of your absorbers with a layer of visqueen or plastic drop cloth you find at the hardware store. The last thing you want is to pull that mattress out to use it and it's covered in itchy rockwool. 3) You said that you were going to make 6" deep wood frames and only fill 4" with rockwool right? I would suggest against that for the shear fact that you are effectively losing 4 sides that waves can hit and have the potential to be absorbed. Make sense? Like Stuart said, waves hit from every direction, why would you limit your absorbtion to just what hits the front when you can allow the panel (without a closed frame) to absorb anything coming at it? I'm not sure if that statement is clear or not. I'll take a picture of mine when I get home (if I remember this time).

hey mate thanks for the additional advice. Yes making the panels without a frame definitely makes more sense. and cheaper too. Thanks for stopping me from making that mistake. Yeah my plan was to wrap all my absorbers and superchunks in a very thin plastic sheet (they sell them as disposable dust sheets in B&Q over here) Then I was going to finish them all with a porus cloth like hessian or some kind of linen in a colour that goes with the room. Thanks again to both of you for the advice, it truely is of great value to me.

if you are going to wrap the entire abosrbers, make sure that it is no thicker than 3.5 mil (i believe that's what is suggested) and realize that this is going to reflect some higher frequencies that are not able to pass that plastic. You really have to experiment, some people wrap the entire absorber to reflect or "keep" the highs so that they don't have too dead of a room and some people cover just the back to let the highs get absorbed. I personally only covered the backs of my clouds because my ventilation system hits them and I didn't want anything flying down onto me. It's really a trial and error to see what you like. Also, when choosing fabric remember it needs to be breathable but most importantly it needs to be fire rated for your safety.

Understood mate. When I said wrap in thin plastic sheet i mean really thin, id be surprised if its more than 1/10th of MM thick, just to prevent glass fibres from escaping really. The hessian material i was going to finish the absorbers with is very porus, I belive its also called burlap http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=hessian&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=634 Would you agree this is suitable?

That is perfect. A lot of us use burlap here in the states. As I stated before though, make sure to use a fire retarder on it. I found a solution for you in the UK... http://www.inest.co.uk/products/Fire_Retardant_Spray_For_Fabric.asp That should do the trick and it's not very expensive. I would treat the hessian and then build the absorbers.

I have another question. the panels are 4" thick and you suggest mounting them 2" off the wall, how do most people go about doing this? You advised not to build a wooden frame around the panel absorbers so there are no solid edges to reflect sound, this lack of solid edges limits my options for mounting them, especially 2" off the wall. All I can come up with is putting 2" thick battons on the wall then using velcro to attach the panels. Is this a good idea? How did you do it? Does anyone have any bettter suggestions? Thanks Tom

once you have them covered in cloth (and FWIW - some folks use light framing materials like corner bead, plastic, etc to hold the form) you could use some 2x4 blocks with insulation hooks, you could glue on some foam blocks in each corner, you could run a picture wire and hang them with a small foam strip at the bottom to keep it from turning. etc.

Cheers for the advice, you've given me some ideas. I think im going to make a back frame using milboard as its not too dense or thick. have it about 2 inches wide all the way round the back of the panel. I can then staple or glue the hessian on to the milboard, the material being taught will be enough to hold the insulation in place, obviously not so taught that the insulation is crushed. I will probably attach 2" rigid foam batton to the wall and use velcro, or just and over hang to lock the panels onto the the foam batton. (i need the option of being able to move the panels) watch this space for photos.

hey guys, well its been ..... 3 months but the studio is now finished. Well more or less, i still need to build a work station that will fit the room. But i think I will just modify the current one with some kitchen work top material to make it more bespoke for the room. Anyway, I just wanted to say a massive thanks to the people who replied to this thread and helped me with the design. Infact a big thank you to all contributors to the forum really. I will upload some photos tonight, of the original state, the construction and the finished article. :yahoo: