20' x 20' Room

Greetings all. I've been in the industry for 10 years, but I'm new to studio design and construction, but I've finally decided to build my own spot. I just left a showing of a great space in a wonderful building here in Denver, and am looking to sign a lease on it soon. However, I'm a little confused about how to build it. To begin, the room has concrete floors, and single sheet 1/2" drywall. Currently, it has no ceiling, and is 20' x 20'. What I aim to do is vocal tracking, production (electronic) and possibly some mixing (if I can get the design right). I'm already aware of the parallel walls, and trying to figure out the best way to cut them out and maximize space for my control and some small storage. I plan on putting in a false floor with sand between the joists, and adding a second sheet of 1/2" drywall. I figure i can put in a flat ceiling and treat that with some hanging traps. What I am most concerned about though are the walls. I need to build a small, but comfortable booth, and also kill the reflections off the parallels. Whenever I try to sketch something out, I still end up with parallels on the left and right, and to cut them in either leaves too much unused space in the corners, creates more parallels, or both. I'm open to suggestions, as this really makes the difference whether or not I lease the space or keep looking. I know parallel walls are to be avoided whenever possible, but I've also been in a few spots where they haven't really been a problem. I guess the other option is to position my desk in a place where the monitors won't reflect on the parallels. But like I said, any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post (click here). Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will most likely not reply if you don't do what is written in that post. Many others who are very helpful, will most likely not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes. Several comments: You say you have a concrete floor, but you also say you plan to put a sand-filled "false floor" on top of it: Why do you want to do that? It will do nothing at all for you acoustically, you already have a great floor, it will be hard to do, and will cost money. I don't see why you need it. Next, you say that the dimensions of the room are 20' x 20'. That is bad. It is square. The only shape that is acoustically worse than square, is round. So I'd suggest that you will have to change that by moving walls, or building new walls.

and adding a second sheet of 1/2" drywall.

Bad idea. 1/2" drywall is too thin to be useful. Go with 5/8" drywall.

I figure i can put in a flat ceiling and treat that with some hanging traps.

You want to put hangers on the ceiling? I guess you must have a lot of space up there! I mean, you can if you want, but in order to have useful size hangers in the ceiling, you'd need a lot of room height. How much height do you have available?

What I am most concerned about though are the walls. I need to build a small, but comfortable booth,

You seem to have enough space for that. It should not be a problem. So you basically want to build two rooms, being a control room and a vocal booth? Is that the idea?

and also kill the reflections off the parallels.

I think you are confusing reflections with flutter echo. Parallel surfaces can give you flutter echo problems, which can be treated either by splaying the walls, or by treating the walls with absorption. Both will work, if done right. But splaying the walls will not kill reflections: you will still have reflections, except that they will be at different angles. That might or night not be a good thing, depending on what else you are trying to achieve!

Whenever I try to sketch something out, I still end up with parallels on the left and right,

Maybe you are too concerned about parallels? Many successful studios have parallel walls. Many successful studios do NOT have parallel walls. Success or failure does not depend on whether or not the side walls are parallel. It depends on many other factors. The decision on whether or not to have parallel walls will affect other things, of course, but you don't have to reject an otherwise good design just because your side walls are parallel.

I guess the other option is to position my desk in a place where the monitors won't reflect on the parallels.

Exactly! Search this forum for the terms "RFZ" and "Reflection Free Zone", and read through a few of those threads to get an idea of how to lay out your room. That should set you on the right track so you can post a rough design here. - Stuart -

Ok. So based on the last post, I did absolutely nothing right. LOL. I'll start again. I'm in the process of building a small studio (400 sq ft) in the Denver, CO area. My primary use is for producing, recording and rough mixing electronic-based music (hip-hop, soul, r&b mostly), but I also want to keep a space for the occasional live session. I leased the space last month, and am currently in talks with contractors (we were supposed to start construction this week, but some things pushed the date out to mid-November). Since I've got a few weeks, I'd like to re-think my plan, and just make sure its sound (no pun intended). My space is in a converted warehouse with approx 6 "cubes". These cubes are constructed next to each other, separated by studs and 1/4" drywall (hollow in between). Both walls are shared and approximately 10' tall. The front of each cube has a 5' wide door built of steel and 1/4" drywall (no treatment on the inside of the room). The floor is stained concrete. My suite has only one shared wall, as it at the end of the row. My rear and left wall are both full floor-ceiling walls, made of 1/4" drywall. None of the suites have ceilings, and I will be adding one, that sits at about 9.5". I'll be building a room within this space. I'm looking to keep my construction under 10k. I'm only using MDF because my contractors obtained a ton of it for 5 bux a sheet, which is way less than drywall in the area. At this point, I couldn't tell anyone exactly how loud I mix or program, because my volume at home and at the studio are way different. I've got a SPL app on my Evo, and when I was testing my NS-10s, it was reading about 102-104db. Here are the details: - 20' x 20' x 10' space - dropping in a ceiling that will be just under 10 ft high - no longer planning to float the floor - outside walls are made of 1/4" drywall (I have no control over these) - insulation will be blown in between outside and shared walls (between suites) - inside walls will be framed with metal studs - inside walls will be insulated with 2" rigid fiberglass - inside walls will be formed with 1" MDF sheets - inside ceiling will be formed with 1" MDF sheets - ceiling will be insulated with either 2" rigid fiberglass sheets or R19 insulation - outside ceiling will be formed with 1" MDF sheets - 4' x 2' x 1/4" window (dual plexiglass) - all seams will be sealed with green glue - dual solid core doors (probably made from 1" MDF) will be fabricated to separate control and live room I've modified a room design that was listed here, to make it work for my space. I plan to use the small room for storage (vinyl, mics, etc) and as a machine room (primarily for amps and my mac pro). The large room will be my live room, and I'll build baffles for performer isolation (vocals, drums, etc). I've already decided on using a pair of NS-10t monitors as my nearfields, and am currently shopping for mains. Curious as to options for main monitor mounting (should I modify my plan to include soffits?). I'm looking at various mains, that have woofers that range from 8 - 12" (that might also help in determining how loud I am during programming). Bigger question, is it extreme overkill to have mains this size in a room like this? I also plan to build absorbers, and a floor to ceiling bass trap (in the corner behind the couch) out of 2" and 4" rigid fiberglass. I would like to build a cloud for both rooms also (probably out of the rigid fiberglass as well). Am I on the right track? Is there anything I need to change, add, remove? Any suggestions? NOTE: Please ignore the 5' x 4' window on the plan. It will actually be 4' x 2'. I am at work and don't have access to the software to edit it before I upload. Here's the plan I modified: Also, here's the site for the building I rent out of. Might help understand the construction, etc. http://www.clusterdenver.com/photos/index.html

how would this studio fit into the space depicted on the link? that space seems larger than 20x20.

gullfo wrote:

how would this studio fit into the space depicted on the link? that space seems larger than 20x20.

There are 3 400sq ft and 3 800 sq ft suites. I have one of the 400s. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, it shows the inside of one of the 800s. The only difference is that my rear wall is drywall, not brick. Sorry for the confusion.

is the door fixed in location?

The control room you have drawn is A-Symmetrical. I would not recommend this approach. Note: Corners focus sound and IMHO, a corner CR is not ideal, unless it's the only place to put it. Why not build a good ratio CR at the bottom of the room and have the entry door open into the Tracking room?? How about a CR 13' 10" by 11' 2 1/8"? leave the rest for tracking. I just re-read your building materials list... That's a very expensive way to build. :cop: You would be better off using type X gypsum board and regular thermal building insulation in the cavities. Also, plexi-glass is a very poor isolator and not recommended for many reasons. Use either laminated safety glass or tempered glass - minimum 13mm thick. Green Glue is not glue, it is a Constrained Layer Damping Material. It is only 'called' glue in it's name. Do not caulk seams with this stuff! Use OSI SC-175 or similar. - or any good acoustic rated caulk.. even Butyl roofing caulk does well for acoustic sealing. Buy Rod Gervais' book http://www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/1598630342/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262507469&sr=8-1.. This will help you a lot. cheers, John

@Glenn: Yes, the door is fixed.I have no control over that, and the way it is built, the frame is welded onto the other supports for the walls.

jhbrandt wrote:

The control room you have drawn is A-Symmetrical. I would not recommend this approach. Note: Corners focus sound and IMHO, a corner CR is not ideal, unless it's the only place to put it. Why not build a good ratio CR at the bottom of the room and have the entry door open into the Tracking room?? I considered putting the CR at the bottom, but I was concerned with the need to leave the room, or people just entering during tracking.

How about a CR 13' 10" by 11' 2 1/8"? leave the rest for tracking.

Would you consider doing a quick sketch of something like this? Like I said, I modified a plan, and couldn't come up with one to save my life.

You would be better off using type X gypsum board and regular thermal building insulation in the cavities.

The MDF is in 10' x 5' sheets at a cost of $5 per sheet, where drywall is at a minimum $8 per 4' x 8' sheet. When you mention the cavities, are you speaking of the shared walls, or the newly built walls?

Also, plexi-glass is a very poor isolator and not recommended for many reasons. Use either laminated safety glass or tempered glass - minimum 13mm thick.

I will change this.

Green Glue is not glue, it is a Constrained Layer Damping Material. It is only 'called' glue in it's name. Do not caulk seams with this stuff! Use OSI SC-175 or similar. - or any good acoustic rated caulk.. even Butyl roofing caulk does well for acoustic sealing.

Duly noted. What about my mains? I am looking at a pair of EV Sentry 500s. 24" tall x 27" wide x 14" deep. Should I soffit mount these or should I build stands? Are these too big for my room (acoustically)?

"The MDF is in 10' x 5' sheets at a cost of $5 per sheet" How much of this can you get @ this price? I would buy a whole truckload :)

Lol. My contractors bid on like 500 sheets and won. They're using some of it for my space. btw: I bought that book for my Kindle app, and its incredible. A lot to understand, but so far, I see where I am making some of my mistakes. Glad I'm taking a few weeks off.

xSpace wrote:

"The MDF is in 10' x 5' sheets at a cost of $5 per sheet" How much of this can you get @ this price? I would buy a whole truckload :)

Wow, yeah. Well, in that case.. I'd say GO FOR IT. :d

misterwilson wrote:

What about my mains? I am looking at a pair of EV Sentry 500s. 24" tall x 27" wide x 14" deep. Should I soffit mount these or should I build stands? Are these too big for my room (acoustically)?

I would recommend something with 8" speakers max and flush mount them. Control room dimensions of 166" by 134 1/8" by 132" result in a total volume of 1701 cubic feet. Yeah, I posted a pdf of my CR placement.. not much room left. Instead of making a CR that is too small (less than 1500 cubic feet) how about making a 'one room' studio. Except for recording drums, I think you will find that this would be the best compromise. Cheers, John

misterwilson wrote:

What about my mains? I am looking at a pair of EV Sentry 500s. 24" tall x 27" wide x 14" deep. Should I soffit mount these or should I build stands? Are these too big for my room (acoustically)?

I would recommend something with 8" speakers max and flush mount them. Control room dimensions of 166" by 134 1/8" by 132" result in a total volume of 1701 cubic feet.

Luckily, I lost the auction on those at the last minute. Now, I'm looking at a pair of EAW MS-50s. They have an 8" woofer and a coupled bass radiator. Thanks for the sketch. I just opened sketch-up again, to try my hand at doing something different. Not too good with it though.

For the record, that experiment in sketchup didn't go too well. Anyone willing to assist?

"The MDF is in 10' x 5' sheets at a cost of $5 per sheet"

That's great, but how thick is it? If that is 6mm, then forget it: no use, acoustically. But if it is 18mm, then please send a truck load, too! :) - Stuart -

1 inch

Would anyone be willing to assist me in designing this room? I've tried playing with sketchup, which seems to be the better option compared to what I had been, but I'm not having much luck.

does this help? the CR is less optimal than John Brandt recommended. you could chose which room to make storage. the challenge is in a 20x20 space when you factor in the isolation walls needed (this assumes you beef up the 1/4" drywall walls with 3x 5/8") you don't have a lot of space. you could expand the CR and reduce the live room. for a CR room this size, 8" monitors and subs should suffice. the MS-50s might be OK but you might consider something like a JBL LSR4328, Focal Twin6e or Meyers HD-1. with the 10' height, even after installing the isolation ceiling, you could readily use a couple of feet to create a false ceiling which houses the necessary bass trapping.