New Basement, need some design help

First time poster here on the forum and am working on a house I had moved and installed on a new basement. I had a recording studio in my parents house but never consulted anyone about the design and mostly guessed at everything or looked at pictures. I plan on living here for as long as possible and want this to be the studio I want to be proud of. First off, the basement is the foam block cement fill style that is 1 foot wide. The basement was supposed to be 10ft tall but after the house was put on top it ended up being more about 9'4". It is a cement floor, there has to be drywall on all of the walls because of fire code. The area I want to build it in is approx 36'4.5" by 21'8" by 9'4" tall. The main wall is a double leaf wall made with 2"x6"'s with a gap in between with a total width without drywall of 19.25" The main door is 81" tall by 38" wide, there are three windows in the area, one which is a fire escape window which is 30" wide and 48" tall and 41" from the floor. Two smaller windows which are 32" by 16" and 7'3.25" from the floor. There are three center support beams spaced roughly 9' apart (exact measurements later with hopefully a sketchup) Also, there has to be a support wall dividing the room in half but I figured it would most likely be on an angle to keep the rooms from being square. I also planned on making them 2x6 double leaf walls and having two sliding glass doors to get through and see through as well. The house has the floor board, insulation, then plywood because it was originally on a crawlspace, so I figured a standard tile style drop ceiling would be sufficient. I live in the country so noise isn't an issue except for my roomates living upstairs which isn't too big of a deal (they can move out hah) I also wanted to build a vocal booth in the corner of the control room. Any tips or designs would be highly appreciated as I have to have this support wall built soon so maybe just a recommendation on an angle or straight. I will post pics tomorrow night as I lost the cable for my camera. Thank you! (edit, budget is roughly 5-10,000 USD) - Jay

Hi Jay, "I figured it would most likely be on an angle to keep the rooms from being square." Being square is most certainly something to avoid since you increase the modal activity, the only thing worse is a cube. But changing the orientation of a wall isn't to avoid a square room it is to reduce flutter echo in the effort to create a smoother response from the room. It's more than what you think it is so I would spend a few weeks getting my head around some of the basic concepts, reflection free zone (TM) (control room), non-parallel walls (tracking room), overhead isolation techniques (ALL rooms). "so I figured a standard tile style drop ceiling would be sufficient." The thing with what you are suggesting currently is that the ICF (insulated concrete form) have a pretty high sound isolation ability. So when you take that high isolation ability of the walls and then dismiss the overhead ceiling with a drop ceiling, you can expect the contained sound from that basement to make every effort possible to get into the upper rooms, since there is little or unequal mass in this overhead cavity to suppress it. Looking into room-in-a-room, mass/spring/mass or mass/air/mass will help you get some more information directly relating to this. Sound is like a balloon in that once it starts it goes in all directions like blowing up a balloon, so the overhead ceiling becomes your weakest part of the rooms ability to isolate sound. And that works both ways, the sound can also get back into your recording environment from the above rooms from simple footfall, loud TV or home theater, sub-woofers, et. al. And don't forget, NFL pre-season is right on top of us and that means noisy room mates ;) It's something to consider, Brien

I currently work a full time job, as well as coming home and working on this house so my free time is crippled. I am currently posting from work and the only thing that I need to do asap is build that dividing wall between the control room and tracking room. We can't have the temporary supports up any longer without getting in trouble by the permit guys. With the info I provided about the room size and hopefully the pictures I can post tonight, I need a suggestion on the dividing wall so I can build that and stop getting pestered about it, then the rest of the studio construction I can take my time with. Ceiling: Would a better approach then be a 2x4 style frame suspended from the steel beams the house was built on with an air gap between the floor of the house and the studio ceiling? I have read that most people use two layers of drywall as well..

kickinwing65 wrote:

I currently work a full time job, as well as coming home and working on this house so my free time is crippled.

Ditto...

I'm going to try and get those pics up tonight as well as a rough sketchup of what I plan on doing. I was thinking of the SAE style RFZ control room and flush mounting some 15" cabinets I have.

Finally got a sketch-up done of the basement, the black area on the left should be ignored.. there is more basement but didn't feel like constructing it. Also some pictures of the area. Black insulation board has to go, insulation pulled as well.. We have to run baseboard heating and hook up the water/septic lines. Forced air system is gone, so duct work is coming out. Some of the water lines and such will be repaired or changed. The 9'4" ceiling is to the lowest steel beam, and I'm probably going to build a 2x4 frame ceiling with drywall but not exactly sure how to attach it. The room has to be divided down the third post from the left. like the first one is for support. I planned on having the control room be on the left, and the live room on the right. I had started a design with the SAE style control room on the left but I didn't understand the angles and such, if anyone could help me out or be really awesome and throw in a design concept into the sketchup I would be very grateful. Measurements should be precise on the sketchup. Sorry, but I'm new to building a halfway proper studio.. my last one was literally thrown together. I have decent building experience as well as my dad and cousin, so walls/ceilings/etc. aren't a problem. Thank you in advance for anyone who can give me a nudge toward this being complete!

Forced air system is gone, so duct work is coming out.

Is there no way that the air ducting can be kept and re-used for the studio? It seems a shame to take out something that you are going to have to put back in again soon.

and I'm probably going to build a 2x4 frame ceiling with drywall but not exactly sure how to attach it.

Assuming that you need isolation between rooms, and isolation between inside and the real world, then the inner-leaf ceilings will have to rest on top of the inner-leaf walls, and nothing on the inner leaf can even touch anything on the outer leaf. And I doubt that 2x4 joists are going to be good enough, unless you are talking really short spans. Those joists have to support a huge amount of weight, and 2x4's can't do that for spans of much more than a few feet. You will most likely need 2x8's or even larger. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Is there no way that the air ducting can be kept and re-used for the studio? It seems a shame to take out something that you are going to have to put back in again soon.

The house was originally on a crawlspace and the air ducting was only for the main floor. There is also no furnace or air unit currently installed in the house as the builder who moved the house removed it for himself. All I was left with was a bunch of modified ducts for a system that was strapped to the bottom of the frame of the house, I'm switching to baseboard heating for the main floor as well as the basement. In the part of Michigan where I live a fully underground basement always seems to stay below 70F in the summer, so cooling isn't an issue either.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Assuming that you need isolation between rooms, and isolation between inside and the real world,

I do need isolation between the control room and the live room, but since this is a basement and its fully underground, I'm not worried about isolation outside of the basement. My closest neighbors are my parents which are about 750 feet away and weren't bothered when I had my old studio in their house. There is also no noise ordinance in our area, my main concern is between rooms and the upstairs.

Soundman2020 wrote:

You will most likely need 2x8's or even larger.

Thank you for this, I'm not too familiar with construction of ceilings. So the 2x8 joists should be mounted on the inner leaf of the walls and not fixed to the bottom of the house whatsoever? This way there should be an air gap between the ceiling and the bottom of the house frame as well as between the control room walls/ceilings from the live room. Since the support beams are mounted to the cement floor of the basement and the steel beam frame of the house, I assume this will result in some transmission of vibrations to the upper floor, but I can live with that, should I just box the beams in with wood/drywall? they are round with a 6"x6" base on the top and bottom.

so cooling isn't an issue either.

You are going to be building a hermetically sealed airtight chamber that is wrapped with many inches of insulation on all sides, and filled with lighting, people and equipment, all of which emit heat. People also have this bad habit of breathing, and if they don't do it quite a few times per minute, the tend to die after not too many minutes. :) So you might want to re-think your HVAC plans. You will need cooling, and you will need fresh air coming in, and stale air going out. Maybe the ducting that you have is no use for that, but you will still need to figure in ducting for the new HVAC system.

So the 2x8 joists should be mounted on the inner leaf of the walls and not fixed to the bottom of the house whatsoever?

Correct. And in turn the new inner-leaf walls will rest only on the concrete floor, without touching the existing walls, or the existing floor above. Also, don't take that "2x8" comment as being written in stone! You need to do the calculations and figure the load and deflection, then check span tables and type of wood, to determine just how to dimension those joists. The load, in turn, depends on how much isolation you need, which determines the amount of mass that you will need on your ceiling leaf.... etc.... It's a whole interconnected process. You can't just guess. And you might want to get a structural engineer to look over your design and calculations, to make sure you are doing it all safely.

This way there should be an air gap between the ceiling and the bottom of the house frame as well as between the control room walls/ceilings from the live room.

Exactly. The depth of the air gap and the amount of mass on each leaf determines the resonant frequency of the wall system, and it has to be designed such that the resonant frequency is way lower than the lowest frequency you need to isolate. The air gap will also be filled with insulation material, such as fiberglass or mineral wool.

Since the support beams are mounted to the cement floor of the basement and the steel beam frame of the house, I assume this will result in some transmission of vibrations to the upper floor,

Correct. That is commonly referred to as a "flanking path", which is just some route that sound takes to bypass your isolation. I'm assuming that your basement floor is a concrete slab on grade, which is great, and in that case the flanking from floor through floor, walls, poles, steel beams, etc. is not going to be too much of an issue, but probably still needs to be dealt with.

should I just box the beams in with wood/drywall? they are round with a 6"x6" base on the top and bottom.

Or you can try to design your rooms such that the poles end up inside the air gap of the dividing walls. If that isn't possible, then you can do what you say: box them in, but in such a way that the "box" does not touch the pole at all: The box can only touch the floor and the inner-leaf ceiling, but it must not touch the pole itself. If it does touch the pole, then flanking becomes a much bigger problem.

Haha, yes I know it will get warm in there, but the performing will be done on the side of the basement with 3 windows, so there is some ventilation there.. as for the control room, I might have to figure out something because installing a hvac system above would lose me more ceiling height. My cousin knows a structural engineer so we can have him come out and look over everything. One thing that I'm seeing as a problem with the ceiling, the current double-leaf 2x6 wall is mounted from the cement floor up to the beams of the house frame, they need to be on the frame for support, and the dividing wall between the control room and live room also need to be on this frame for supporting the house. So I would have to attach some joists so the studs of the inner leaf walls because the top is fixed to the bottom of the house frame.. if this causes me to lose some of my isolation it's not too big of an issue. I'm not some huge producer (yet) and this is mostly a hobby of mine. I also will probably end up moving later on in my life when I hit my current job's salary cap to a higher paying job if I can find one.

Haha, yes I know it will get warm in there, but the performing will be done on the side of the basement with 3 windows, so there is some ventilation there..

Actually, those windows won't be any help at all, since they will be sealed behind several layers of drywall and multiple inches of fiberglass insulation! It seems that I haven't managed to explain the concept of isolation yet, so let me try again: Sound is like water: it takes the easiest path out. Your room is like an aquarium, in the sense that if you want to isolate your room, you MUST enclose it on ALL SIX SIDES, just like you have to put glass on all sides of an aquarium. If you only put walls on three sides of your room, then its the same as trying to build an aquarium with glass on only three sides: it wont work. It doesn't matter how thick the glass is on those three sides, or how beautifully you sealed the glass in place, the water will simply ignore all of that, and gush out through the sides you didn't do. Same with your room: if you leave out a wall, or have an open window, then you entirely blew away all of your isolation. Period. Gone. Nothing left. Like I said before, if you want to isolate your room, then the ENTIRE ROOM must be sealed hermetically, air tight, on all sides. No gaps. No operable windows. Not even a tiny little crack underneath one wall, where you forgot to seal. Even doors need multiple seals. If you don't do it perfectly, then you might as well not do it at all. ANY gap that you leave is the place where sound will leak out. In other words, to isolate your room, you wont be able to use those windows for ventilation. You need HVAC.

I might have to figure out something because installing a hvac system above would lose me more ceiling height.

Not necessarily. If you design it well, you can run the ducts in places that don't matter much, and that won't take out any headroom.

and the dividing wall between the control room and live room also need to be on this frame for supporting the house.

No it doesn't! You haven't built the dividing wall yet! Therefore it does NOT need to "support the house", since the house is already supported very well, without it! The dividing wall will just be part of your MSM system: one half of it will be the inner leaf for the control room, and the other half will be the inner leaf for the live room. And none of it will touch the existing walls or the existing ceiling (the floor above you).

So I would have to attach some joists so the studs of the inner leaf walls because the top is fixed to the bottom of the house frame..

No you don't need to do that at all! Each inner leaf is totally self-supporting, and cannot be attached to the outer leaf at any point. You cannot attach the walls to any part of the existing structure. The simply sit on the floor, and that is it. Let me backtrack and explain... Right now, you have an outer leaf, which is the entire basement. It is already doing a great job of holding up the house, all by itself, and doesn't need any help. Inside of that outer leaf, you are going to build two sealed "boxes". One box will be called "live room" the other box will be called "control room". Both boxes will sit on the existing floor, but they will not, and cannot, touch anything else. They cannot touch the existing walls, or the existing ceiling, and the cannot even touch each other. That is the principle behind sound isolation. Each "box" is its own inner-leaf. the basement is the outer leaf. The boxes have to be hermetically sealed, and there has to be an air gap around them, filled with fluffy insulation. That's the only way to do it.

if this causes me to lose some of my isolation it's not too big of an issue.

Actually, it would not cause you to lose "some" of your isolation: It would cause you to lose a large portion of it! Any flanking at all bypasses all of the money, effort and time that went into building the rest of the structure. Unfortunately, sound isolation is an "all or nothing" proposition. You can't have "just a bit of isolation on the ceiling, but don't worry about the walls". That simply wont work, any more than an aquarium with "just a bit of glass on the bottom, but don't worry about the sides" would work. Any place that sound can get out, around, or through your isolation means that all the rest is wasted effort.

I'm not some huge producer (yet) and this is mostly a hobby of mine.

That's pretty much true for most of us here on this forum, who are building their own studios. Some are professional producers, but many of us are hobbyists, just like you. Unfortunately, the sound waves don't care how professional you are, whether this is just a hobby or not, or how much cash you have available to invest in the room: All the sound waves care about is the laws of physics. You can't bribe them with lots of money to take a different path, and you can't get their sympathy by telling them that you are just a hobbyist, and can't afford to put up good isolation. They really don't care. Sound waves are impartial, and treat us all the same. They simply react to the physical objects around them, period. If the objects create a fully enveloping barrier that they cannot get through, then the stay in the room, where you want them. But if the objects around them do NOT create an enveloping barrier, then they escape. It's that simple. - Stuart -

Well then I guess I'm not going to have isolated rooms then. First, its illegal for those windows to be covered, one is a fire escape window. Second, yes those walls need to be there to support the frame of the house, the inspectors said I can't live there until two walls are built in that area. one of which is currently built. I guess I'll just get the angles close enough for the rfz control room and make a shitty studio since all my building codes and permits here are retarded.. I don't have the time or patience to be dealing with those morons at the permit office, they have already given me violations for the most ridiculous things, such as putting shingles on my roof without a permit... (facepalm) I guess I won't have the studio I dreamed of.. not in this house at least.