Very small vocal booth, please help me make this work :)

I had a pretty nice studio awhile back but recently lost everything and was forced to to simplify my life and make due with a small setup in a less than ideal situation to say the least. Anyway I need some sort of vocal booth to record voice overs, the occasional hip hop vocals or singers at my home studio and all I got to work with is a small closet (that is really small) I can not rip down walls and make bigger so we got to work with what I got. here are the dimensions as measured from the inside of the closet L 59 1/2" x W 33" x H 94 1/2" Can you guys help me get this small vocal booth to sound ok? I don't care too much about isolation or ventilation for now, this is more about treating the booth and making it sound as good as possible if possible at all?? My thoughts are to deaden and treat the room as much as I can with 703 dense fiberglass and put as much bass traps (2" thick) and mid traps (1" thick) as I can fit in there. Is surface mounting bass traps and mid traps ok, or should I try to add little corner mounted triangle traps from floor to ceiling as seen in link below?????? http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_tri_trap.html thinking about DIY-ing it of course Now about the door; I got a really good deal on a door with wood frame and almost full glass (only single pane) nothing special but looks nice comes with pre hung jam threshold etc.. I'm going to put on my own weather stripping and try to adjust the threshold as snug as possible or maybe order some sort of special adjustable rubber threshold. Not too concerned with isolation in this case but was thinking about adding a 2 inch space and then putting a 2nd layer of laminated glass on, kinda rigging it but I can make it look nice. Would this be a waste of time? It's pretty quiet in my studio the AC is pretty quiet for a wall-mount and I'm not trying to nor can I afford to spend a bunch of money so when I have decided when I track vocals I'm just going to monitor very quiet or through headphones so there is not a bleed issue. So this is why I'm not too concerned with isolation (as well as being broke) I also thought about later when I can afford to add a layer of mass loaded vinyl to the entire inside of the booth just for a bit more isolation cause vinyl is very small and and doesn't eat into my space at all really + I have had decent results with vinyl before not great but decent ish which might be just enough to turn up speakers a little more in room when tracking vocals. I have attached some pictures How exactly would you guys treat this super small vocal booth to get decent results? Is it possible? Any feedback would be much appreciated my budget is $500-700 I'm in Tahoe California btw.

anyone?

There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post (click here). Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will most likely not reply if you don't do what is written in that post. Many others who are very helpful, will most likely not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes. - Stuart -

I read that and tried to make sure my post conformed though I forgot budget now updated if you read my post you will see I got it laid out pretty well I'm just asking about treatment and if a booth this small and my plan is worth it?

I read that and tried to make sure my post conformed though I forgot budget now updated...

And you also forgot another rather important part: The bit where it says "Nothing says "I didn't bother to read or follow these instructions" like leaving your profile location blank!"... :) Anyway:

here are the dimensions as measured from the inside of the closet: L 59 1/2" x W 33" x H 94 1/2"

That's a REALLY small space! I'm sure you already suspect this, but it's so small that there really isn't anything you can do to make it usable. By the time you put enough treatment in there to make it even vaguely acceptable acoustically, there won't be enough room to even stand up in there. That's the issue. And if you put a door on it, then you'd probably last about 2 minutes in there before suffocating! I reckon I'd seriously consider doing something else. One thing that occurred to me is to build a frame around the closet door, to extend it a couple of feet into the room. Not sure if it would be worthwhile, but it would give you a bit more room, and MAYBE make the space usable.

My thoughts are to deaden and treat the room as much as I can with 703 dense fiberglass and put as much bass traps (2" thick) and mid traps (1" thick) as I can fit in there.

I doubt if that is going to work. Not thick enough. With the dimensions of the closet, you are going to have major problems in the range 113 Hz to 500 Hz, and the human vocal range goes down right into that area. But you can't treat those low frequencies with 1" and 2" 703 o the walls of the closet. I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but you cannot get around the laws of physics. There are no magical materials that would make that closet usable as a good vocal booth. Sorry.

or should I try to add little corner mounted triangle traps from floor to ceiling as seen in link below??????

They wouldn't fit! I couldn't find the dimensions on that web site, but in order to be effective those things would have to be at least 20" to 25" across the front face. You don't HAVE that much space in the closet! This is the entire issue. While those corner traps would probably help a lot, they just wont fit in such a tiny space.

I'm going to put on my own weather stripping and try to adjust the threshold as snug as possible or maybe order some sort of special adjustable rubber threshold.

You'd be sealing a tomb, basically, unless you also have a decent ventilation system in there. You have barely one cubic meter of air in there: not enough to keep you alive for very long...

I also thought about later when I can afford to add a layer of mass loaded vinyl to the entire inside of the booth just for a bit more isolation

Waste of money. MLV is just mass, and is very, very expensive mass. If you need more isolation, plain old drywall is far more effective and much cheaper. But even then, unless you decouple the two sides of each wall, it won't help much (if any).

cause vinyl is very small and and doesn't eat into my space at all really

Neither does drywall! But once again, it will not be effective unless you also decouple.

I have had decent results with vinyl before not great but decent ish, which might be just enough to turn up speakers a little more in room when tracking vocals.

If you got REALLY lucky, and the MLV was enough to double the mass of the entire wall, you'd be able to turn up your speakers an extra 6 dB. Maybe. Most likely more like 2 or 3. In other words, it would make no real difference at all. A 3 dB increase is barely noticeable, and even 6 doesn't help much.

Is it possible?

Short answer? No. You could put 703 on the walls and ceiling, sure, and even make mini-triangular "traps" for the corners, leaving just enough space to stand in, but my best guess is that it would sound like crap, and you'd be suffering greatly from lack of air within too-short a time to be able to record anything. It would be very uncomfortable. I never met a singer who could do a good job when they are feeling uncomfortable, hot, claustrophobic, and asphyxiated. Seriously, I would look for another place to use as a booth. I just can't see that working decently. Or even half-decently. - Stuart -

thanks for feedback btw I put I'm in Tahoe California at end of my post I now see you can put it in profile my bad thanks updating I was just going to see if I could get acoustics passable then add on this after http://www.dawbox.com/acoustic%20produc ... lation.htm so you are absolutely sure there is nothing I can do to make this work I got no other option I'm stuck here for a year anyone else care to chime in

I agree with Soundman2020; for the most part it is extremely difficult/impossible to get good sound out of a tiny box of a room like that. You cannot change the laws of physics. For more detail on my thoughts about this, see Do I Really Need A Vocal Booth? on our website.

I now see you can put it in profile my bad thanks updating

Much better! :)

so you are absolutely sure there is nothing I can do to make this work

I've recorded in some pretty lousy spaces in my time, and I'm thinking that, if that room is all you have, then there might be some alternatives that would at least be better than what you have now, and would also fit in your budget. It's NOT going to be a real solution, but should help a bit: I'm thinking along the lines of building a couple of large gobos (8' x 4'), perhaps on wheels, with very thick absorption on them (6" 703 mounted over an air gap over a sheet of plywood), then arranging them in a "V" shape, touching each other along one vertical edge, and with the open end of the V facing towards the closet. Pack the back wall of the closet also with 6" of 703. Now stand in the middle of all this, with your mic somewhere located vaguely towards the sharp end of the "V". It's not perfect by any means, and you'll still get plenty of room sound in the mic, but with careful compression in your DAW you should be able to get something usable, maybe. (In a pinch I even once did something like that with rolls of carpet standing on end ( :shock: ). It worked well enough for what I needed, but I sure wouldn't recommend it. ) You could maybe even lay another sheet of 703 over the top of the two gobos, for a tiny bit extra absorption. But like I say, it won't be good, and you'll still need to do a lot of work in the mix to clean it up. However, it might just be enough. And you can even re-use the gobos later, once you get your studio going again! Just a suggestion, but I really can't think of much else you can do with that space on that budget. And if anyone ever asks, it was NOT me that suggested this! I'll totally deny it, and disown that idea! I never said it! Really! Nope.... not me.... :) - Stuart -

For more detail on my thoughts about this, see Do I Really Need A Vocal Booth? on our website.

There ya go! I'm thinking of a giant version of that portable booth concept. That's pretty much what I had in mind, just on a bigger scale. - Stuart -

I really appreciate your guys feedback as I'm sure it would get me closer to a better sound and I will keep that in mind and maybe later I will be able to talk my girl into cutting into the space a bit more (shes uses the room too for her work) and know I can use that info in the future so thanks for your time! as far as if I had to stick to my original concept and live with the issues (even if it won't sound great) I got a certain amount of space I can work with only unfortunately. Fyi its looking like its going to be more of just a scratch vocal box to cut down on sound levels late at night, so I guess I can live with less than perfect acoustics to say the least. is there any further advise you guys can give me to make the most out of bad situation assuming I'm going to be forced to stick somewhat to the following plan. I could be stubborn or stupid but here's my plan... #1 I am going to install the ventilation system. #2 I'm going to offset 2 walls and the roof by 2 inches to break up the parallel-ness a little and then line the booth with 4" thick 703 with a 1 inch gap behind every trap and see if it improves sound of room at all. #3 I got some laminate wood for the floor that looks cools and hoping it injects a tiny bit of life into this nightmare. Basically hoping I can stop flutter echo and and slightly improve the bass peaks in this box, every bit of an improvement is better than nothing I hope. I have some 2" 703 in storage that I'm going to double or triple up and got the wood for free so besides the door and the ventilation box this will only cost me a couple hundred bucks. if I can get a scratch vocal done at 2am that sounds better than this box without any treatment and without waking my girl up down the hall I'll be happy (well not jumping for joy but :) ) am I crazy? heheheeee in my mind this thing could end up looking pretty nice but sound like crap which sucks but my girl will be happy it looks nice :(

am I just crazy?

Well I was bummed that the acoustics of that small booth would suck so I came up with an idea we got a back guest house my sister has been staying in and I can trade spaces with her. there is a room to put all my gear in and there is a big closet for the vocal booth that should have more room to get better results I hope these are the inside dimensions of the closet L 6 1/2 x W 5 1/2 x H 9 I can build the inside out however I want let me know if this is worth pursuing fingers crossed!!!!!! what is the smallest booth sizes you you recommend to get good results

these are the inside dimensions of the closet L 6 1/2 x W 5 1/2 x H 9

That sounds like a MUCH better proposition! That is actually a decent space for a booth, I reckon! - Stuart -

jumping for joy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is still a small room, not much difference. Matter of some fact, the readings are close to the same.

I thought I read in here that 6x5x7 (which I could do with this booth) is proven small booth dimensions????? so maybe booth wont sound great but do you think it will sound bad? I would be happy with sounding ok

To put it in perspective, your original closet was 107 cubic feet, this new one is three times as large, at 321 cubic feet. Your Schroeder frequency drops from 300 Hz to 200 Hz, the booth actually supports modes down to about 85 Hz (the closet had nothing below about 115), and the mode spread for voice frequency range actually looks usable, and reasonably smooth. I wouldn't want to track a drum kit or bass in there, but for ordinary voice work it should be reasonable. In fact, your booth is not much smaller than John's recent design for a vocal booth: Yours is about a foot or so smaller in depth and width, but it's also taller. I don't see why it shouldn't work! - Stuart -

thanks for feedback!!!!!! seeing some light at end of tunnel here. I got a few random ideas wanted to run by you Stuart As far as overall treatment and direction of the vocal booth should I angle some walls offset like 6 inches to break up the parallels a bit?????? then maybe put some of those corner traps in a few of the corners and fill the room with 2" thick 703 (which I happen to have a bunch) on every wall and ceiling with a 1" air gap behind traps? Then was going to keep one wall live (the wall with the window and door) or should I try to put traps everywhere I possible can like above the window and below the window too etc...??? wanted to add a wood floor too for a little extra life or should I carpet it? Do I want to keep it 9 feet tall or should I lower ceiling a bit, maybe a drop ceiling with 1" thick 703? Is there any ideal dimensions I should shoot for to frame the room to then put the treatment on or should I shoot for certain dimensions with all the treatment installed and all = how exact do I got to be? Sorry for all my questions acoustics is mystery science to me, I just wanted to play guitar and sing some songs next thing ya know I got to become a mathematician hehheheeee I really do appreciate your feedback! next post I will be upping the ante heheeheeeee

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Sorry! I missed your response!

As far as overall treatment and direction of the vocal booth should I angle some walls offset like 6 inches to break up the parallels a bit??????

If you can afford the space and the expense, then sure. Angle two of them, and you'll be fine.

and fill the room with 2" thick 703 (which I happen to have a bunch) on every wall and ceiling with a 1" air gap behind traps?

Sounds like a plan!

should I try to put traps everywhere I possible can like above the window and below the window too etc...???

Yup! But you could also add some "slot resonators" on the walls, to not lose too much of the high end. You want a reasonably "dead" room for a booth, but it doesn't have to be slaughtered with a chain saw! Dead is good, massacre is not... :)

wanted to add a wood floor too for a little extra life or should I carpet it?

Wood floor, forget the carpet. Carpet is selective, and you need the floor to be bright. If the room is still too bright after you do everything (unlikely!) you could put in a small throw-rug to help, but I doubt that will be necessary.

Do I want to keep it 9 feet tall or should I lower ceiling a bit, maybe a drop ceiling with 1" thick 703?

You should put a couple of inches of 703 up there, definitely, but that does NOT lower the ceiling! Acoustically, it actually RAISES the ceiling, which is good. I'd go for 4" on the entire ceiling. Cover it with cloth, to hide the "ugly". It's a common misconception that putting absorption on the walls or ceiling actually changes the dimensions of the room: it does not. The dimensions are always measured to the hard surfaces of the walls, not to the treatment that you add afterwards. Sound waves terminate at the hard, solid surfaces, not at soft fluffy surfaces.

Is there any ideal dimensions I should shoot for to frame the room to then put the treatment on or should I shoot for certain dimensions with all the treatment installed and all = how exact do I got to be?

to be honest, I wouldn't make it any smaller than it is by adding drywall anywhere, but I would frame the 703 somehow: it needs to be framed to put the slot resonators up (search the forum for "slot wall" to find out how to do that), and also to cover up the ugly 703 with cloth in those areas where you don't put slots.

I just wanted to play guitar and sing some songs next thing ya know I got to become a mathematician hehheheeee

Welcome to the weird and wonderful world of acoustics and studio design! :) - Stuart -