Studio design CR Size

Hi everyone, I have been reading arround in different forums about studio designs and acoustics, rooms shapes and sizes but I would appreciate to to read your opinion about my studio plan. I am designing a studio in a second floor, the most important thing now for me is to define the distribution and size of the rooms, this space used to be a private area of a restaurant. The side walls are mainly windows, the front and back walls are made with concrete blocks and the ceiling is concrete waffle slab, the dimensions of this area are: 2.67m height, 7 m width and 15 m length -Mainly, I want to use this studio for sound design, music composition, production and at least basic recording needs like vocals, guitars or mic'ed guitars, with a control room where I can do professional mixing. -A second need would be to designate, an area like a small office to do paperwork and store gear that I won't be using all the time, like mics, extra-wires and stands, with space for a microwave and a small refrigerator. I hope this isn't too much for the space. The budget is from 4,000 - to 6,500 us dlls max with the acoustic treatment These are the inner dimensions for the control room 2.6m, H 3.55m Front Wall W 4.85m Back wall W 6.8m L I will use sheet-rock for the walls and ceiling with independent studs for each layer of sheet-rock with rock-wool in each air gap -I have chosen these measures to get barely more than 2500 cubic feet or 72 cubic meters to have enough space to make a decent mix, and the ratio is close to the golden ratio, the side walls are angled because I thought it would be cheaper and better if I do this instead of later having to angle the room with room treatment. The ceiling is not angled, I tought that having clouds would be easier. -The recording room is small, I did this design because there is a room behind the back wall that has a washroom, and I think it is easier and cheaper to use it instead of building a new one. I just have to put a door in that wall. These are my questions: -Do you think it's worthwhile to build a recording room of those dimensions at least for vocals and voice-overs, maybe guitars? or the control room would be enough? -does the control room have the right size and shape in order to have good acoustics? -Should I angle the ceiling? or hanging a cloud ceiling would be enough? -would it be better if I just build just rectangular rooms and treat them later with slots resonators to angle the walls or ceiling? Maybe this would be a better question, -Do you think that I could make a better use of the space without sacrificing acoustics? or possibly IMPROVE the acoustics, maybe changing the shape, size or position of the rooms? All your recommendations or opinions would be appreciated Please, let me know if I've forgotten something and excuse me if my English is not clear or polite enough. Thanks in advance for your time and patience. Daniel Rodriguez

I am sorry, I am trying to find out what I've missed, I have found this site very useful, I've learned a lot reading here, I would like to read an opinion of someone more experienced than me. Could anybody tell me why nobody is replying to my post?

Hola Daniel, y bienvenido al foro! I'm, sure it's nothing personal that you didn't get any responses! It happens sometimes: Maybe nobody saw your post, or everyone was busy doing something else, or someone saw it and meant to respond later, then forgot. But you did the right thing: Just bump your thread, or maybe repeat your questions in a different way, or post something new to your thread. That's one of the idiosyncrasies of this place: sometimes posts get missed, for unknonw reasons! Anyway, for your questions:

-Do you think it's worthwhile to build a recording room of those dimensions at least for vocals and voice-overs, maybe guitars? Or the control room would be enough?

Personally, I think the booth size is fine. If that's the space you have available, then that's what you have to work with. And personally I reckon its better to have two rooms for tracking, especially with things like vocals and acoustic guitar. You can probably get away with one room for things like bass, keyboards and electric guitar, but for quiet acoustic stuff, I'd go with two rooms. And the sizes for those rooms seem reasonable to me. One thing I would change is to angle two of the walls in that booth, to help with flutter echo.

and the ratio is close to the golden ratio,

Which golden ratio? There are several very good ratios, and actually they occur in families, or groups. It's hard to say if one is better than another. In any event, your ratio is roughly Room Ratio: 1 : 1.61 : 2.61, which is down in 20th place on Bob Gold's calculator. It isn't bad, but it could be better. The idea with ratios is more to stay away from the really bad ones, than it is to try to get a "perfect" one. Having said all that, if you splay (angle) the walls, then ratios no longer apply... Any mode that involves one of your splayed angled walls becomes very hard to predict.

-does the control room have the right size and shape in order to have good acoustics?

It's not bad, but it could be better. Take a close look at some of John's designs here, and the designs of other rooms, and you'll get an idea of ways to improve your room shape.

-Should I angle the ceiling? or hanging a cloud ceiling would be enough?

Either will work. You do have a reasonable amount of height, but not much extra to play with. You could perhaps angle just the front section of the room. Or you could leave the ceiling flat at just treat it.

-would it be better if I just build just rectangular rooms and treat them later with slots resonators to angle the walls or ceiling?

Once again, both approaches will work. Personally, I like the aesthetics of splayed walls and angled ceilings, and I like the concept of soffit-mounted speakers and a reflection free zone, but others prefer plain rectangular rooms. But regardless of which way you go, you will still need to treat the room. Splaying the walls and/or ceiling does not mean that you don't have to treat the room.

-Do you think that I could make a better use of the space without sacrificing acoustics? or possibly IMPROVE the acoustics, maybe changing the shape, size or position of the rooms?

You most likely can improve it by trying out different designs, shapes, layouts, geometry, etc. In order to help you with that, I'd suggest that you by Rod's book, and also the Master Handbook of Acoustics: Both of them will give you the understanding of acoustics that you need in order to design and build your studio well.

Gracias por tus respuestas Soundman, I am getting rod's book now, and I will sketch it again trying to improve the shape. In order to treat the room with bass traps in the corners and what ever I need to use or hang to treat it, do you think that I could install it on the sheet-rock or should I use an additional layer of plywood or something? Is the drywall strong enough to support the acoustic treatment?

Do you think that if I find a room ratio with with a better bonello curve (using calculator like Modewiz or bob Golds room modes clalc) even if it has less volume, Would it work?

Do you think that if I find a room ratio with with a better bonello curve (using calculator like Modewiz or bob Golds room modes clalc) even if it has less volume, Would it work?

Your room has a volume of about 2600 cubic feet: that's pretty good. It gives yo plenty of space to play around with, if you really do want to go hunting after better ratios, and you can afford to lose a bit of volume, since you have a decent amount to start with. But having said that, ratios are not the Holy Grail of studio design. The idea is to stay well away from really bad ratios, and to try to get close to one of the good ratios, but don't kill yourself trying to squeeze out an extra mm here, or another 1/64", just to hit a ratio perfectly! Get in the ball park of a good one, and you will be fine.

Is the drywall strong enough to support the acoustic treatment?

You don't attach the treatment to the drywall: you attach it to the studs that are holding the drywall in place. If you are concerned that you might not have a stud right where you need to hang something, then by all means put a layer of plywood underneath the drywall (right up against the studs) to use as a nailing surface. It will also strengthen the wall considerably, and also add more mass, so it's good all around! Except that it costs more.... :) Saludos! - Stuart -

I think I wont splay the walls so I can predict better the room response and take advantage of the room ratios, and I was thinking that it would be better to have more cubic space or area plus I would feel more comfortable and creative with it, but I've found a room ratio that theoreticaly (according to modwiz calc) it will sound good. so I have this two options Option 1 Option 2 - I am thinking that the ceiling would be arround 2.6m. - In the option 2, I forgot to angle one of the walls in the layout. - I will use the space at the entrance for two things, to put a Lunck area (coffemaker, a minibar or something like a small refrigerator and a microwave), and a small office with a desk to do paperwork... I haven't defined yet a place to store equipment like mics and mic stands... does the first option have any advantage over the seccond? Which one of the two options will works better acoustically to mix and record? Mainly I will record, singing vocals or voice-overs, but It would be nice to use a space to record drums or something else This is my plan for the walls, The gap between the frames will be 2 or 3 cm The ceiling is some kind of concrete waffle slab, I'm not sure how to call it, the thing is that the lower part of the ceiling is 2.67m and the higher is around 2.97m I am not sure if I should use one or two layers of drywall for the ceiling using 2'' by 2'' timber or steel beams or just leave it as it is and hang some clouds? what would be the best think to do with de ceiling? any ideas? I am missing something before going to the acoustic treatment stage? Thanks. Daniel Rodriguez

With your room-in-a-room design, you want to pay strict attention to any where that one side of the room can get access to another room. Flanking. Your framing should look more like this picture below. You will also want to NOT jam the interior panels/sheetrock into each other but leave a gap that can be caulked.

I get it, Thank you for the correction, What do you think about the ceiling?

I like it. But since you are framing a room-in-room environment, you will install joists on top of the newly framed walls and add mass to that, effectively hiding the honeycomb ceiling you have now. Depending on spans and everything considered, you will wind up with an 8 foot tall (2.45 meter) ceiling at the hard panel interior. Your two main concerns, if I were doing this is 1. it's a second floor and what are my load limits and 2. doing a room in a room with all that glass will reduce the overall system to the TL capability of the glass side (weakest). This pre-supposes that there is glass of no acoustic benefit or at least that is not capable of matching the block/concrete walls it will compete with. Brien

xSpace wrote:

I like it. But since you are framing a room-in-room environment, you will install joists on top of the newly framed walls and add mass to that, effectively hiding the honeycomb ceiling you have now. Depending on spans and everything considered, you will wind up with an 8 foot tall (2.45 meter) ceiling at the hard panel interior. Your two main concerns, if I were doing this is 1. it's a second floor and what are my load limits and 2. doing a room in a room with all that glass will reduce the overall system to the TL capability of the glass side (weakest). This pre-supposes that there is glass of no acoustic benefit or at least that is not capable of matching the block/concrete walls it will compete with. Brien

Im sorry, what does TL capability means? Do you mean that I will have reflective differences between the wall next to the glass and the other walls? here are some images of the windows to the restaurant, I will have to sound proof those windows very well

Im sorry, what does TL capability means?

"TL" means "transmission loss". What Brien is saying is that the glass is a potential problem with your isolation, since it does not have anywhere near the same mass as the concrete around the rest of the room: it is your weak point, from the point of view of isolation. That's a lot of glass down the side! The entire outer leaf is going to be glass. I'm not sure how you plan to deal with that: What are you going to make the other leaf out of? How are you going to fill the cavity with insulation? That will look rather ugly from the other side of the window: you might need to paint that glass black, or something, before you start building the inner leaf.

I will have to sound proof those windows very well

Yes you will, and the glass won't help much with that. How thick is that glass, and what type of glass is it? As Brien said, that glass is definitely going to be your limiting factor. Can you take the glass out and replace it with something else? - Stuart -

It may be time for some sound tests to verify the capabilities of the existing glass/wall/ceiling. (edit: Since you have a block wall that will be your exterior leaf...) You may well only have to build one wall to develop a mass/air/mass system and might can incorporate the existing windows into that as well, depending on budget, existing glass thickness, etc. (edit: If you do block off the windows you will want to have the mass placed directly against the window with the framing and insulation exposed to the interior. This will eliminate the triple leaf effect, but is a more complicated process.) Time to step back and have another look-see;) Of course, if you build this thing (edit: As a room-in-room design) in the middle of the room, or around four feet off of any existing wall, this may be an option that could work without any detrimental effects. (Edit: The exterior walls of this building (block) should be considered your first leaf of your two leaf system. You are either going to be building one frame with mass and insulation detached from the existing block wall OR you will have to step in four feet and do a whole room-in-room system from that point.) I'd still like to know how much load I could place on that floor >before< I started...

Thank you Brian and Stuart This is what I was planning to do with that windows with the studs spaced at 24'' and an air gap of 2 cm Is there another way? The glass is 5mm thick, I was thinking to put some pictures printed on vinyl at the outer side of the glass About the maximum load for the floor I do not have the exact information, but it was designed to support cold-rooms, that's what the owner told me. I think it's strong enough.

xSpace wrote:

It may be time for some sound tests to verify the capabilities of the existing glass/wall/ceiling. You may well only have to build one wall to develop a mass/air/mass system and might can incorporate the existing windows into that as well, depending on budget, existing glass thickness, etc.

I will test it tomorrow morning

This is what I was planning to do with that windows with the studs spaced at 24'' and an air gap of 2 cm

Bad idea! For three reasons: Firstly, that is a three-leaf system that you are showing! :shock: ! (unless you plan to remove the glass: the glass is a leaf). Second, you are mixing 5/8" drywall with 1/2" drywall. (5/8 is fine, but 1/2 is too thin (light, flexible, high resonant frequency etc.)) Despite what you might have read on the internet about how great it is to have dissimilar materials in order to diffract/refract/reflect/diffuse sound waves (take your pick, depending on which myth you prefer), it really isn't true. The 1/2" stuff is bad for a number of reasons that are too complex to get into right now. Just make it all 5/8. Third, you don't show any insulation in either of your two air gaps (and your air gap is NOT 2 cm: more like 11 cm...) That setup would be pretty lousy at isolating...

I think it's strong enough.

I always get shivers down my spine when I see people say that! :shock: So you have good insurance? Does it cover what you think?

that's what the owner told me.

Will the owner put that in writing and agree to accept all liability for what happens if you collapse his floor? The point is the owner might well be right, but the only person who can guarantee that the floor is able to support the huge amount of mass you are about to place on it, is a structural engineer. You might want to get one of those to come and take a look, and give you his professional opinion on whether or not the floor will be able to handle that load. If you don't want to hire a structural engineer, then my other suggestion would be that you take out a really, really good all-risks insurance policy, that covers everything including building collapse even if you cause it yourself! - Stuart -

Daniel, For blocking those windows, you would be better off putting 2 layers of 15.9mm (5/8") gypsum board against the glass and bracing it with a 2 X 4 frame connected to the existing walls and eliminating the triple leaf effect. This will also save you space. Either that or remove the glass and frame a new wall. For an air space between the double wall, I wouldn't recommend less than 50mm or 2" minimum. Again Stuart is right. Not just 5/8" drywall (gypsum board) but type X, which has a denser core. TWO layers on each side. Use light insulation to fill the cavity between the walls. Cheers, John

ok, you all convinced me to remove the glass, Would this be enough? Or should I block the "Window B" like the "Window A"? like this I appreciate all your help and constructive comments, if you think that I am asking too much questions and "don't want to give me the fish" maybe you could "teach me to fish" pointing me to similar cases or the right information. I have ordered two acoustical and studio construction books, but I need to go on to keep my work projects. Thank you again

That looks much better! That should do the trick. As for teaching you fishing: I think that's what we are doing! But this "acoustic fishing" thing ain't so easy, since it just isn't intuitive: You first have to un-learn a hole bunch of stuff that you always assumed about sound, but just isn't true, and also to un-learn many of the myths that float around on the internet about acoustics and sound. Then you have to start re-learning the way it REALLY works, and it takes time. I know this first hand, since that is exactly where I came from. It has taken me several years to get from the "egg crates on the walls and carpets on the floor" mentality to where am I now, which is at the point of realizing just how damn complicated this whole acoustics thing is! Every time I learn something new about it, it opens up a whole bunch of additional questions, that are even more complex than the one I just answered! sometimes it seems like I'm going backwards, ending up realizing there is even MORE stuff that I don't know yet, every single time I finally figure out something that was nagging me... That's my long, rambling way of saying that the folks here ARE teaching you to fish, but from your perspective it probably doesn't look that that way! So I'd suggest that you just keep on going like you are, asking stuff and modifying your plans each time you get an answer. And also just kind of read through the forum! Pick one of the really big, long build threads, and work your way through it, following all the links, and make sure you understand each decision, why it was made, etc. Also, if you don't already have them, get Rod's book, and the Master Handbook of Acoustics, by F. Alton Everest. Those two are, without doubt, the best pair of "acoustic fishing" books out there! - Stuart -

+1 Stuart Option 2 is very good. Do not do option 2b. Flanking paths. Cheers, John

Soundman2020 wrote:

As for teaching you fishing: I think that's what we are doing! But this "acoustic fishing" thing ain't so easy, since it just isn't intuitive: You first have to un-learn a hole bunch of stuff that you always assumed about sound, but just isn't true, and also to un-learn many of the myths that float around on the internet about acoustics and sound. Then you have to start re-learning the way it REALLY works, and it takes time. I know this first hand, since that is exactly where I came from. It has taken me several years to get from the "egg crates on the walls and carpets on the floor" mentality to where am I now, which is at the point of realizing just how damn complicated this whole acoustics thing is! Every time I learn something new about it, it opens up a whole bunch of additional questions, that are even more complex than the one I just answered! sometimes it seems like I'm going backwards, ending up realizing there is even MORE stuff that I don't know yet, every single time I finally figure out something that was nagging me...

The second book I bought about acoustics was Beranek's Acoustics. This started me WANTING to learn mathematics. In the decades since then the most important thing I have learned about acoustics is that I now know how much I do not know about acoustics. Learning that took years of studying! Andre

AVare wrote:

The second book I bought about acoustics was Beranek's Acoustics. This started me WANTING to learn mathematics. In the decades since then the most important thing I have learned about acoustics is that I now know how much I do not know about acoustics. Learning that took years of studying! Andre

+1 I couldn't agree with you more! John