Design/room treatment question

Hey there, I will have the luxury of building a new house and there will be a room for my home studio. Since I do Pop/Dance ITB productions my studio will be pretty much identical to a control room in an actual recording studio, there will be no live instruments to be recorded. I have a coulple of questions though: 1. When sticking to the perfect ratio in regard to the size of the room (regardless of the several variations out there) do I have to build my original room to those or the final configuration of the room should be in accordance to those proportions. When I say "final configuration" I mean I will use light panels to shape and angle the room walls so there are no parallels. Those pannels (artificial walls) will obviously be slightly farther from the original wall. So where do I take the measurment from? Same with ceilling. 2. In some of those studio design graphics which show kind of "room in the room" solutions, the corners are coverd by the second wall and there is a gap between it and the original wall. It is usually marked as "bass trap". So is this gap filled with absorbtive material as the one you would use as bass trap panels in a regular rectangular room or is it just left empty? Thanks a million!

Read the forum rules first

jbassino wrote:

Read the forum rules first

Great suggestion! I actually found a rule saying: "For those who can afford to built a 2.1M house and include a home studio in it, please, pay a professional accoustic design company to build it and ask them any questions you may have - they gladly answer! They get paid to satisfy you - we don't so do not bother us, we're too cool to take it under consideration!" Great read, should I translate this in Spanish?

Dude, Is that simple. The forum has rules, I didn't make them up. You provide no location? No answer If you go on with that attitude, most people wont likely help you

First, I'd suggest that you start by reading the "stickies" at the top of this forum, most especially this one (click here). Then, I'd suggest that you spend some time looking over this forum, reading through the build threads of completed studios and in-progress studios, and researching acoustics. Buy the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest, and buy the book "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros" by Rod Gervais. Study them both in great depth. Please don't take this the wrong way, but from your first post it seems that you are greatly confused by many basic concepts in acoustics. The following is intended to be constructive criticism, to get you on the right track:

1. When sticking to the perfect ratio in regard to the size of the room

Which "perfect ratio" are you referring to? There is no such thing as just one. There are MANY ratios which can be used, and they are spread out around several areas on a geometric plot of all possible ratios. It isn't an issue of "variations", either: It is an issue of different ratios. Some are better than others, and some are equivalent to others, but there is no such things as one single ratio which is "the best". That's a myth. Choose the ratio that best fits your situation, and build according to that.

...do I have to build my original room to those or the final configuration of the room should be in accordance to those proportions.

The ratio refers to the final surface of the inner leaf of the studio, but you need to do some research to clarify what "inner leaf" means. It's not what you think it means... It is neither of the two that you mention.

When I say "final configuration" I mean I will use light panels to shape and angle the room walls so there are no parallels.

That won't work very well. Firstly, "light panels" wont do much for you: you need large, solid, rigid, massive panels, not "light"ones. Lots of mass. "light" doesn't do much in acoustics. And the "angle and shape" should be part of the room inner-leaf, which is a solid, sealed, massive shell, not something you knock together from bits and pieces afterwards. Those are "gobos", which accomplish an entirely different purpose.

Those pannels (artificial walls) will obviously be slightly farther from the original wall.

Then they would create resonant cavities, which would be bad! They could do one or more of several bad things, such as reduce the isolation of your room, or absorb frequencies which you did NOT need to absorb, or not absorb frequencies which you DO need to absorb, or cause reflections which worsen your room acoustics, destroy your reflection free zone, unbalance your stereo image, or any number of other things. You can't just throw up a few angled panels and hope they will fix a bad room. The entire room needs to eb designed for its purpose.

So where do I take the measurment from? Same with ceilling.

the ceiling is PART of the ratio!!!! It's not "another thing" that would be nice to know about. The concept of "room ratio" refers to the entire three-dimensional inner leaf of the room., including all four walls, and the floor, and the ceiling. In fact, without considering the ceiling you don't even HAVE a room ration, since all ratios refer to the floor-ceiling dimension as the unit basis for the other two dimensions...

In some of those studio design graphics which show kind of "room in the room" solutions,

They are not "kind of" room-in-a-room solutions. They ARE room-in-a-room solutions. That's the only way to go, in order to get maximum isolation on a reasonable budget. But room-in-a-room has nothing at all to do with treatment: It is all about isolation, not treatment. Sure the design of the inner-leaf might well take into account things like RFZ and flutter echo, but that's not really treatment: it's just good design. Room-in-a-room MSM design is all about isolation, not treatment. Two different things.

the corners are coverd by the second wall and there is a gap between it and the original wall. It is usually marked as "bass trap".

No they are not. The corners ARE bass traps, are NOT covered by the "second wall", and are NOT part of the inner leaf. Bass traps are inside the room, not inside the wall. They are part of the room treatment, not part of the wall. Any insulation inside the wall is part of the tuned MSM system that makes the walls great isolators, but has nothing at all to do with bass traps. Putting a wall over a bass trap would severely limit its efficiency, frequency and Q. In fact, it would most likely turn it into some kind of low-Q broadband panel trap, not a bass trap at all. And at the other end of the room, the soffits are also not part of the wall, nor are they bass traps (although they might include bass traps as part of the design).

So is this gap filled with absorbtive material as the one you would use as bass trap panels in a regular rectangular room or is it just left empty?

What do you mean by "bass trap panel"??? What do you mean by "this gap"???? The best bass traps are superchunks, which are not panel traps. The gaps are in the walls, not the bass traps (usually). panel traps do include air gaps, but may or may not be bass traps, depending on the frequency they are tuned to, and the Q they are designed for. Bass traps usually are filled with with insulation, and are very deep, very wide, and very high. Bass frequencies take a lot of absorption. I'd suggest that you take a much closer look at the room-in-a-room designs that you saw: what you thought were walls in front of the bass traps are not walls: They are acoustic cloth, put their to hide the trap aesthetically. Also, the two leaves in a "room-in-a-room" design are NOT part of the treatment of the room: they are part of the isolation of the room. The wall is made up of two "leaves", the outer leaf and the inner leaf, both of which are sealed airtight, and are separated by an air gap. The air gap is filled with insulation, which acts as a damper on the MSM resonance of the wall. The size of the air gap and the mass of the two leaves is carefully chosen such that the MSM resonance is tuned below the range of human hearing, or at least below the range of concern. And the inner leaf is what defines your room ratio, which is what defines your modal spread. And all of that has nothing at all to do with angling walls so that there are no parallels in order to eliminate flutter echo, not does it have anything to do with angling walls to create a reflection free zone. Which, in turn, have nothing at all to do with the actual treatment that needs to be placed in the room, as determined by actual acoustic measurements taken after the room is already built. Sorry if I sound a little sarcastic or overly critical, but your questions show that you have an awful lot of learning to do in grasping the basic concepts, before you can even start designing your room successfully. I hope I haven't scared you off with the above: it is meant to motivate you to learn more, not to be scared! - Stuart - (Edited to add: I wish I'd seen your reply to Javier before I posted this: I wouldn't have bothered trying to be so helpful).

Soundman2020 wrote:

First, I'd suggest that you start by reading the "stickies" at the top of this forum, most especially this one (click here). Then, I'd suggest that you spend some time looking over this forum, reading through the build threads of completed studios and in-progress studios, and researching acoustics. Buy the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest, and buy the book "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros" by Rod Gervais. Study them both in great depth. Please don't take this the wrong way, but from your first post it seems that you are greatly confused by many basic concepts in acoustics. The following is intended to be constructive criticism, to get you on the right track:

1. When sticking to the perfect ratio in regard to the size of the room

Which "perfect ratio" are you referring to? There is no such thing as just one. There are MANY ratios which can be used, and they are spread out around several areas on a geometric plot of all possible ratios. It isn't an issue of "variations", either: It is an issue of different ratios. Some are better than others, and some are equivalent to others, but there is no such things as one single ratio which is "the best". That's a myth. Choose the ratio that best fits your situation, and build according to that.

...do I have to build my original room to those or the final configuration of the room should be in accordance to those proportions.

The ratio refers to the final surface of the inner leaf of the studio, but you need to do some research to clarify what "inner leaf" means. It's not what you think it means... It is neither of the two that you mention.

When I say "final configuration" I mean I will use light panels to shape and angle the room walls so there are no parallels.

That won't work very well. Firstly, "light panels" wont do much for you: you need large, solid, rigid, massive panels, not "light"ones. Lots of mass. "light" doesn't do much in acoustics. And the "angle and shape" should be part of the room inner-leaf, which is a solid, sealed, massive shell, not something you knock together from bits and pieces afterwards. Those are "gobos", which accomplish an entirely different purpose.

Those pannels (artificial walls) will obviously be slightly farther from the original wall.

Then they would create resonant cavities, which would be bad! They could do one or more of several bad things, such as reduce the isolation of your room, or absorb frequencies which you did NOT need to absorb, or not absorb frequencies which you DO need to absorb, or cause reflections which worsen your room acoustics, destroy your reflection free zone, unbalance your stereo image, or any number of other things. You can't just throw up a few angled panels and hope they will fix a bad room. The entire room needs to eb designed for its purpose.

So where do I take the measurment from? Same with ceilling.

the ceiling is PART of the ratio!!!! It's not "another thing" that would be nice to know about. The concept of "room ratio" refers to the entire three-dimensional inner leaf of the room., including all four walls, and the floor, and the ceiling. In fact, without considering the ceiling you don't even HAVE a room ration, since all ratios refer to the floor-ceiling dimension as the unit basis for the other two dimensions...

In some of those studio design graphics which show kind of "room in the room" solutions,

They are not "kind of" room-in-a-room solutions. They ARE room-in-a-room solutions. That's the only way to go, in order to get maximum isolation on a reasonable budget. But room-in-a-room has nothing at all to do with treatment: It is all about isolation, not treatment. Sure the design of the inner-leaf might well take into account things like RFZ and flutter echo, but that's not really treatment: it's just good design. Room-in-a-room MSM design is all about isolation, not treatment. Two different things.

the corners are coverd by the second wall and there is a gap between it and the original wall. It is usually marked as "bass trap".

No they are not. The corners ARE bass traps, are NOT covered by the "second wall", and are NOT part of the inner leaf. Bass traps are inside the room, not inside the wall. They are part of the room treatment, not part of the wall. Any insulation inside the wall is part of the tuned MSM system that makes the walls great isolators, but has nothing at all to do with bass traps. Putting a wall over a bass trap would severely limit its efficiency, frequency and Q. In fact, it would most likely turn it into some kind of low-Q broadband panel trap, not a bass trap at all. And at the other end of the room, the soffits are also not part of the wall, nor are they bass traps (although they might include bass traps as part of the design).

So is this gap filled with absorbtive material as the one you would use as bass trap panels in a regular rectangular room or is it just left empty?

What do you mean by "bass trap panel"??? What do you mean by "this gap"???? The best bass traps are superchunks, which are not panel traps. The gaps are in the walls, not the bass traps (usually). panel traps do include air gaps, but may or may not be bass traps, depending on the frequency they are tuned to, and the Q they are designed for. Bass traps usually are filled with with insulation, and are very deep, very wide, and very high. Bass frequencies take a lot of absorption. I'd suggest that you take a much closer look at the room-in-a-room designs that you saw: what you thought were walls in front of the bass traps are not walls: They are acoustic cloth, put their to hide the trap aesthetically. Also, the two leaves in a "room-in-a-room" design are NOT part of the treatment of the room: they are part of the isolation of the room. The wall is made up of two "leaves", the outer leaf and the inner leaf, both of which are sealed airtight, and are separated by an air gap. The air gap is filled with insulation, which acts as a damper on the MSM resonance of the wall. The size of the air gap and the mass of the two leaves is carefully chosen such that the MSM resonance is tuned below the range of human hearing, or at least below the range of concern. And the inner leaf is what defines your room ratio, which is what defines your modal spread. And all of that has nothing at all to do with angling walls so that there are no parallels in order to eliminate flutter echo, not does it have anything to do with angling walls to create a reflection free zone. Which, in turn, have nothing at all to do with the actual treatment that needs to be placed in the room, as determined by actual acoustic measurements taken after the room is already built. Sorry if I sound a little sarcastic or overly critical, but your questions show that you have an awful lot of learning to do in grasping the basic concepts, before you can even start designing your room successfully. I hope I haven't scared you off with the above: it is meant to motivate you to learn more, not to be scared! - Stuart - (Edited to add: I wish I'd seen your reply to Javier before I posted this: I wouldn't have bothered trying to be so helpful).

Don't feel sorry for Javier, he'll be alright! Knowledge should be shared. Great reply! Guess wizards always have to preach about their superiority first before delivering the actual educational payload. Don't care about sarcasm or the sorts if it's helpful and informative. I was just curious about some of the schematics published here - don't wanna pretend I will build something I know nothing about. As I said I'll leave it to the Pros to build it. Lucky me...

miroxp - stop being an ignorant prick! we don't even know what country you are in - we have a set of rules that we ask members to abide by: viewforum.php?f=17 now if you don't want to abide by them then we'll erase your membership.

Here is a simple layout of my room with dimensions.I have a uniquely shaped room for my home theater. It is one big open room, but has two different sections with different ceiling heights. The walls are fairly bare and are painted with a flat black.

yup - that's about it.