Garage Build Northern Beaches Sydney

Hi Everyone! I just want to thank in advance anyone who helps me with my studio design!! CHEERS!!! I’ve recently bought my first house on Sydney’s northern beaches. Well, my fiance, and myself went halves with her sister and her husband. They got upstairs we got downstairs. I got the garage for a studio!! My goals. My goal is to build a control room and a ‘live’ room big enough to track a drum kit. The studio will mostly be used by me to write songs. But I play in a few bands, so occasionally the plan is to record my bands and my friends bands. This wouldn’t happen very often. But it would be nice to think I could get more and more work down the track. The bands I’ll be recording will mostly be rock, punk and metal acts. My setup is based around a Yamaha O2R and Digidesign 001 at the moment. I also have a 15RU rack on wheels with some outboard stuff. I’ve been floating around this great site for a while and I’m thinking that John’s 3D garage design looks just about right for my garage. Because the garage is attached to the house I’m thinking that I’m going to have to build a “room within a room”. I’m a carpenter by trade (but i mostly install fire rated windows and doors) and I have started some construction. The garage when we bought the house had no ceiling. Just the floor boards above. This was my first problem. No carpet above the garage just polished floor boards. And with kids playing up stairs on the raw floor!! So my first job was to fill the 240mm floor joist with Sound Screen insulation and put up some 16mm Fire Check Gyprock (I had some sheets from a job so I thought I’d start with those). Next job was the garage door. Removing the garage door wasn’t an option. So I had to build around the rolled up Rolla door. So this has left me with a slanted wall 1950mm above the garage floor and 930mm to the ceiling. I have sheeted the wall in front of the garage door with 16mm Fire Check, filled with Sound Screen insulation and then sheeted the internal side again with 16mm Fire Check. I've also filled all the gaps between the gyprock with a fire rated mastic. The opposite wall to the garage has the door to get into the garage. This wall was also insulated and sheeted with the Fire Check. I need to do some more framing and sheet that as well, but I wanted to leave it for now so I can get materials in. There’s going to be a air lock where our front door is going to be (I’ve got other renovations to do on the house) and the door into the studio. I’m thinking I might be able to use this air lock as a small vocal booth sometime down the track. The wall on the road side is all brick. The wall on the other side is normal wall gyprock and I’m guessing it has no insulation behind it. Behind this wall is mostly the hall way that leads to our bedroom. The floor is concrete. I’m thinking of putting some snap lock timber flooring down in the ‘live’ room and a little square where I’ll be sitting in the control room. And carpet everywhere else. I don’t know yet. I might just go carpet everywhere. As far as the neighbours go? I don’t think I’ll have much of a problem. We live on a corner block on a main road. There is no houses across road from the garage door side. It’s just all park land. Our nearest neighbour is on our bedroom side. Budget I’m hoping to have this build finished for under $5000 Dimensions As the room is now the internal dimensions are 5865mm (L) x 4150mm (W) x 2730mm (H). As i mentioned before the back wall in front of the garage door is 1950mm high then sloping up 930mm to the ceiling. So i've lost about 550mm in full ground to ceiling height in the live room. Questions I’m still undecided if I’m really going to need a “room within a room”. I’m running out of space pretty quick. I’m going to definitely need another ceiling. It’s still very loud up stairs above the garage. But I won’t be tracking drums every day....And I can give upstairs notice when I will be recording. But I will be in my studio just about every day. Maybe i could just make the live room a “room within a room”?? If i did make a “room within a room” would i have to frame the perimeter of the whole room to hang the ceiling like I have in my Sketchup plan? Or could I hang the ceiling off the framing of the angled sound baffles and speaker mounts? Again thanks a lot for the help with my studio build. And i hope i have given all the necessary details. :D Damien

Hi Omen, and welcome! A few random comments:

My goal is to build a control room and a ‘live’ room big enough to track a drum kit. ... As the room is now the internal dimensions are 5865mm (L) x 4150mm (W) x 2730mm (H).

That's gonna be a pretty tight fit! It should be do-able, but realize that both rooms will be small, and good acoustics likes "large" not "small". You will also be loud. A full drum kit can easily produce 115 dB SPL, and a lot of that energy is in the low end of the spectrum, which is the hardest part to deal with. How quiet do you have to be? You might have a great relationship with the rest of the folks in the house right now, but that could change really fast if you don't control the levels. Try to put a real number to how quiet you need to be in order to maintain good relationships with everyone. That number will dictate the kind of construction you need. If everyone around you is just ecstatically in love with drums and says that 95 dB in their bedroom at 3AM is fine, then you are done already! But if they say that 45 dB is still too loud, then you have some serious work ahead of you. Beg, borrow or rent a sound level meter, and get some real numbers as your starting point.

Because the garage is attached to the house I’m thinking that I’m going to have to build a “room within a room”.

If you want to isolate a drum kit, then yup! You don't have too many other options.

The garage when we bought the house had no ceiling. Just the floor boards above. This was my first problem. No carpet above the garage just polished floor boards. And with kids playing up stairs on the raw floor!! So my first job was to fill the 240mm floor joist with Sound Screen insulation and put up some 16mm Fire Check Gyprock

Did you decouple that drywall from the joists? If not, then it won't achieve much isolation. Plus, you now have a two-leaf system up there already, so what you built there will have to come down if you plan to build a room-in-a-room. You cannot have a multi-leaf system if you hop to isolate drums (unless you plan to put seriously huge amounts of mas on those leaves).

I have sheeted the wall in front of the garage door with 16mm Fire Check, filled with Sound Screen insulation and then sheeted the internal side again with 16mm Fire Check.

That sounds like a three-leaf wall already, and you haven't even built your inner leaf yet! :shock: Just to confirm: What you have from outside to inside is the original garage door, a small air gap, then a single sheet of drywall, another small air gap (the space between the studs), and yet another sheet of drywall. Is that correct? If so, that's a three-leaf wall, which is bad enough for low frequencies already, but it will turn into a four leaf wall (which is even worse!) once you build your inner room. It looks like you'll need to re-think that if you hope to isolate drums from the outside world. The drywall will have to come off that frame.

The opposite wall to the garage has the door to get into the garage. This wall was also insulated and sheeted with the Fire Check. I need to do some more framing and sheet that as well,

Once again, did you decouple the two sides of that wall? If not, then it will never isolate drums. Not even close. If you have not yet put drywall on the garage side of that frame, then DON'T! Leave it like it is, with just the stud framing for now. You'll see why later....

The floor is concrete.

Excellent! Leave it like that. Nothing better. Or maybe lay laminate flooring directly on top of it, if you don't like the look of bare concrete.

And carpet everywhere else. I don’t know yet. I might just go carpet everywhere.

Bad idea. Chances are carpeting your room will leave it sounding dull, cavey, honky, lifeless, etc. Unless you use carpet that has published acoustical properties, and those properties happen to match exactly what your room needs, then it will most likely make matters worse, not better. The general recommendation is: hard floor, soft ceiling. Leave your floor as concrete, and either do an inside-out ceiling or use clouds.

I’m still undecided if I’m really going to need a “room within a room”.

To isolate drums, you really don't have much choice! There are only two basic ways to stop sound from getting from "A" to "B": 1) put a total vacuum between "A" and "B", or 2) put an really huge amount of mass between "A" and "B". Then there is a third method, which is sort of related to the second one, and is called a fully-decoupled two.leaf MSM sturcture. The problem is you already seem to have too many leaves in some parts of the construction, without even doing the inner leaf yet! You already have more than two leaves in some places: adding the inner-leaf will make that three or even (gasp!) four leaves. Unfortunately, you have already built stuff that will have to come down again if you want to actually isolate things. For example: the wall over the garage door, and the ceiling, will both have to come down and be re-built properly if you want to achieve isolation. Drums are the hardest of all instruments to isolate, and the way you are going so far is not going to do the trick. As you have already discovered! As you say: "It’s still very loud up stairs above the garage." Yes it is, and it will get even louder in the low end if you add another leaf. Simple fact of physics.

I’m going to definitely need another ceiling.

Nope! Bad idea! Adding another ceiling will REDUCE your isolation for low frequencies, NOT increase it! You need to re-build the ceiling you already did, but you need to do it properly this time. If you try to add yet another ceiling, that will make three leaves, which will actually decrease your isolation to upstairs: Yes, you read that correctly: Adding another ceiling to what you already have will make matters WORSE, not better. Not intuitive, but true. You would be building a three-leaf ceiling, which will drive up the resonant frequency of the entire MSMSM system, putting the resonance dip squarely in the lower part of the spectrum, which is exactly where drums put out a large amount of energy.

If i did make a “room within a room” would i have to frame the perimeter of the whole room to hang the ceiling like I have in my Sketchup plan?

Well, sort of! But not like that. Your rooms are coupled, you have several three-leaf and four-leaf walls on that plan, the air gaps are too small, drywall seems to be in the wrong place at some points, and your plan is only 2D with no indication of what is what, so it's hard to figure out what is going on in there.

Or could I hang the ceiling off the framing of the angled sound baffles and speaker mounts?

I'm not sure what you mean by "angled sound baffles" and "speaker mounts". Are you talking about the speaker soffits? If so, then the answer is no: your inner leaf is the entire structure surrounding each room. After you decouple the two rooms, you will actually have two "inner rooms". They must be independent, decoupled, no mechanical connections at all between them, fully sealed airtight, and with only two-leaves, never three, and certainly not ever four! Ans speaker soffits are not part of the leaf structure: they are inside the room, and they don't form part of the inner leaf. So, what you'd need to do is to take off the drywall from the ceiling, take out the insulation, use the drywall to beef up the floor above you (between the joists), taking care to seal all of that hermetically, then put the insulation back. Then take off the drywall from the garage side of that wall yo built around the roller-door, take out the insulation, use the drywall to beef up the other side of that wall (between the studs), seal airtight, then put the insulation back in again. Do the same on the left hand wall (marked "front door"). Seal the brick walls. And ditto for the wall at the bottom, marked "house bedroom"). At this point you will have one sealed brick wall, three stud frames filled with insulation, and a ceiling filled with insulation. And each of those will be just one leaf, which is what you want. Now you can build your two inner rooms. Each will be a stud frame with a couple of layers of drywall on only ONE side of the studs. Each room will have its own independent ceiling, which rests only on the walls for that room, and will also be a set of joists with one or more layers of drywall on just ONE side. The inner leaf must also be sealed airtight. That will do the trick! However, I didn't see any HVAC in your plan. How are you going to deal with that? - Stuart -

Hi Stuart! OMG! Thank you! thank you! thank you!!! We learn by our mistakes :oops: Lucky i haven't gotten to far into it. I ripped 2 sheets off the entry side wall this arvo. Filled in between the wall studs with the drywall and mastic around the gyprock. I'll be pulling the rest down over the weekend and getting stuck into it. A couple of questions: 1, I've got a sound level meter in my iphone. Will that do? I'm jamming tonight so i'll test my how loud my drummer is down at the rehearsal studio. There is a upstairs room with floor boards so it should tell me something. (its going to tell me its loud i'm guessing!) :lol: 2, Do you think 1 layer of 16mm drywall be enough between the floor joist for the ceiling? (the more the better huh) And then put in the insulation? And then some plastic over the the insulation to hold it in? I'll try and do up a 3D sketchup over the weekend.(i'm still learning :oops: ) And i'll answer some of the other questions you asked. Thanks again Damien Ps the photo is just to see if i'm REALLY on the right track :oops:

1, I've got a sound level meter in my iphone. Will that do? I'm jamming tonight so i'll test my how loud my drummer is down at the rehearsal studio.

I've never tried using one of those, but it will probably at least give you a rough idea. It might not be accurate, but it will most likely be in the ball park. Something is better than nothing! Can you select the parameters that you want to use for the measurement on the app, such as weighting, response time, range, etc? If so, then select C weighting and long response, and select a range that will allow you to measure sounds of around 90-130 dB for high levels, and around 40-90 for the low levels.

There is a upstairs room with floor boards so it should tell me something. (its going to tell me its loud i'm guessing!)

Yup!!! :)

2, Do you think 1 layer of 16mm drywall be enough between the floor joist for the ceiling? (the more the better huh)

The more the merrier for sure, BUT!!!! Big word of caution, here: Make absolutely certain that the floor joists can handle the extra weight! You will be adding hundreds of kg of mass to that floor. You need to consult a structural engineer to make sure that it is safe to do so. BIG TIME IMPORTANT!!!! You don't want that lot coming down on your head some day.... But if the engineer puts it in writing that you can have X number of layers of drywall up there, and your budget will allow it, then sure! Go for it. Just make sure that you hold reach layer in suitably with cleats, and that it is sealed correctly and liberally with caulk all around the edges.

And then put in the insulation? And then some plastic over the the insulation to hold it in?

That will work. Or use packing strapping across the joists to hold the insulation in place. Or even wire netting (chicken wire, etc.): Many ways to skin a cat!

I'll try and do up a 3D sketchup over the weekend

I'd suggest that you really, really, REALLY should design everything you possibly can, in great detail in SketchUp, before you do any more building. It's much easier to move a wall in SketchUp than it is to move a real wall! :)

Ps the photo is just to see if i'm REALLY on the right track

What kind of insulation are you using there? Do you have the acoustic characteristics, such as density and gas flow resistance? - Stuart -

HI Stuart Heres the data sheets for the sound screen insulation i'm using. Sound screen 3.0 for the ceiling and 2.5 for the walls. http://www.bradfordinsulation.com.au/Br ... efbfcb.pdf I had a play with the iphone sound meter. It seem to be around 90-95db in the room when the drums were playing. But i think it might have been clipping at some moments. I need to play a bit more with it. I'm keepin my eye out for a real sound meter. I've been having fun ripping down the gyprock i put up :cry: And i've been putting it between the floor joist. My old man came around and had a look (he's been a builder for 40yrs) and he said i'd have no problems putting 2 layers of gyprock up in the ceiling. But i don't think my budget is going to allow a second layer through out. I was thinking of MAYBE just putting a second layer in the ceiling in the 'live room'. What are your thoughts on this? Will it effect the control room? I'm guessing not because i'll have 2 separate rooms.

Just to confirm: What you have from outside to inside is the original garage door, a small air gap, then a single sheet of drywall, another small air gap (the space between the studs), and yet another sheet of drywall. Is that correct?

Yeah this is correct. Should i have made this wall part of my inner room wall? Because it probably not too late to do that. I need to pull the gyprock off anyway. I might be able to de-couple the frame from the wall and ceiling in place with some industrial neoprene rubber i have. Thank again mate Damien

Heres the data sheets for the sound screen insulation i'm using. Sound screen 3.0 for the ceiling and 2.5 for the walls.

I'd go with the 2.5 all around. The 3.0 is not really dense enough to be optimal. Even the 2.5 is a little too light: it's only 40 kg/m3, and optimal is more like 48 kg/m3. Maybe you could look around at your local Home Depot (or similar) and try to find ordinary mineral wool or fiberglass of about 40 kg/m3- It might work out cheaper.

I had a play with the iphone sound meter. It seem to be around 90-95db in the room when the drums were playing.

Then the meter is nowhere near accurate! It's really hard to play the drums that quietly. More like 110 to 115. So I'd forget that one, and get a real one. Try E-bay.

But i don't think my budget is going to allow a second layer through out. I was thinking of MAYBE just putting a second layer in the ceiling in the 'live room'. What are your thoughts on this? Will it effect the control room? I'm guessing not because i'll have 2 separate rooms.

Acoustic isolation in a room is sort of like an aquarium: It has to be the same all around in order to work. You can't make an aquarium with glass on the front, wood on the back, cardboard on the bottom, sponge on one side, and paper on the other. It will only be as good as the weakest, leakiest side. That's where all the water is going to leak out. So too with your room: whichever wall is weakest (has the least mass / sealing / ar gap / insulation) is going to define the isolation for the entire room. It is not really useful to double up on just one wall of the room, since the sound will simply leak around that, through the other walls. In other words, you need to do all four walls and the ceiling to the exact same level, and the then windows and doors also need to be done to the same level.

Yeah this is correct. Should i have made this wall part of my inner room wall? Because it probably not too late to do that. I need to pull the gyprock off anyway.

Tough call! It all depends on how much of a three-leaf the original garage door is creating. What is it made of, how heavy is it, and how well sealed is it? If it is just light weight slats that roll up, then it probably isn't much of a problem. Opinions differ on this kind of garage door issue, but I think I'd pretend that the 3-leaf effect of the original door is not going to be too bad, and pretend that what you already did is going to be your outer leaf. So once again I'd take off the drywall on the garage-side of that frame and use it to beef up the other side, sealing carefully, and maybe even add a third layer of drywall on that one, to get the mass up a bit more. then build your inner leaf separately, and leave as large a gap as you can afford between those two leaves. However, I'm not 100% certain that this is the best plan for that wall. Maybe one of the experts here can give yo a better idea of how to do that one. - Stuart -

Yeah the garage door is closed. And it just one of those Rolla Door garage doors. Its just light weight metal slats. And not sealed very well. Damien

HI! Just a update.... Well i've got all the gyprock up between the floor joist in the ceiling and the insulation back in. I was able to re-use most of the gyprock that i pulled down. :lol: I convinced everyone here that the garage door just had to come out. So that should make my build a little easier/quicker... Today i'm getting stuck into the wall next to our room. I've already cut all the gyprock out with the reciprocating saw straight up the studs. So i can slot the gyprock straight back in between the studs. I've got some fire check left over from the ceiling so I'm going to double up (10mm and 16mm) the gyprock on this wall. So! I've taken my two steps backwards. It's time to start taking some steps forward!! Damien

I convinced everyone here that the garage door just had to come out.

that's good news, for sure! It will make a big difference to your isolation.

So! I've taken my two steps backwards. It's time to start taking some steps forward!!

sounds like a normal studio build to me!!! :shock: :D :!: - Stuart -

Hi again.. I've discovered a RSJ beam running the length of the garage. The beam stops at the wall where the door is. (i have a cupboard in the next room where i can see where the beam stops. There is a small gap between the metal beam and the following timber joist) I've sealed between the top plate and the RSJ and the timber beam above the RSJ. But as the RJS is only 10mm thick i'm wondering if i should clad the beam in something to give it more mass. Or can i just put some rock wool on it to stop reflections. The beam rings like a bell when i tap it with a hammer! Cheers Damien

omen wrote:

... Or can i just put some rock wool on it to stop reflections. The beam rings like a bell when i tap it with a hammer! Cheers Damien

Reflections aren't what you are going to hear, but rather the flanking that will keep that thing ringing. I recall somewhere here that a fella glued some rubber sheets to a structural metal beam and was able to knock the ring down significantly. Anything that you can do that does not change the beam physically should help some. Like adding more mass to this beam will change how it will perform with what looks to be an already significant load of block and concrete on top. The reason it rings is because it is under load and sound moves faster in metal anyway.

Thanks for the reply! I've got a heap of 20mm neoprene. I'll give that a go. Attached are some sketch-up design for my build. One design uses part of the speaker frame as the outside shell. This gives me more room. Is that a no-no? The other design has a full outer framing shell. And then I've slotted Johns small studio design and resized. Is this the best way to go? Or am I doubling up some framing where I don't have too? Cheers Damien

sorry this was answered above

One design uses part of the speaker frame as the outside shell. This gives me more room. Is that a no-no?

Yes it's a no-no :lol:

Hi all! Tomorrow I'm going to buy some timber to start the inner shell of the studio. I'm thinking of using tongue and groove chip board as the inner leaf instead of gyprock. Chip board will be easier and cleaner....I hate gyprock!!!! I didn't have enough neoprene to cover all of the metal beam. So i'm going to have a look at what they have at the hardware store. I thinking that some rubber carpet under lay might do the job. Cheers damien