Pre-design questions.

Hello, I am about to start designing/prepare for a new studio-build that will - if we can buy the house we want - start early next year. By then I will brief all of you by using the standardized questonaire provided by the stickies. However, before that, I want to ask you guys a few questions so I can steer my initial design properly. I have been scouting the basement/garage where I hope to build and some thoughts have come up; 1. How does one go about building Johns inside-out ceiling? I can understand that its easy (albeit heavy) to construct the walls, having them lying down and then raising them when finished, but how is this possible when you're building the ceiling? I can't intuitively figure this out, and so far I can't find any specific instruction on this. 2. The basement ceiling height is only 235 cm and considering the 10 cm (insulation filled) airgap and then the inner ceiling (12-14 cm?), my inner ceiling height will probably end up around 210 give or take, is this - in your opinion - too low? Acoustically I can't imagine it would make that big of a difference with 5-7 cm more, but how about the "feel" of the room? Have you guys worked/constructed CRs with this low ceiling height? Is it acceptable in terms of work-environment? More questions will surely come up, and rest assured I will post them, but I want this studio to take its time and get perfected, so I will return with these questions when I have more info and a initial design. Thank you for paying attention to these questions, and thank you for any and all help that you can provide. /Alex

1. How does one go about building Johns inside-out ceiling? I can understand that its easy (albeit heavy) to construct the walls, having them lying down and then raising them when finished, but how is this possible when you're building the ceiling? I can't intuitively figure this out, and so far I can't find any specific instruction on this.

One way is to build it in manageable sections on the floor, then lift each section into place and bolt it there, then seal it. Of course, you need to plan to have extra room to maneuver the section around a bit, to get it over the wall edges. EG, you need to be able to push it well over the edge of one wall so that you can lift it up past the top of the other wall, then slide it back into the middle. - Stuart -

One way is to build it in manageable sections on the floor, then lift each section into place and bolt it there, then seal it. Of course, you need to plan to have extra room to maneuver the section around a bit, to get it over the wall edges. EG, you need to be able to push it well over the edge of one wall so that you can lift it up past the top of the other wall, then slide it back into the middle.

I was afraid of something like that. When it comes to "wiggle-room", maybe rectangular shapes is to prefer, so there is an obvious way to lift and put into place? Thanks Stuart. Anybody on q2?

In my research I have now come to some conclusions, followed by a few questions. But once again, this is not my general "design thread", as these are some questions to steer my design in the right way. Your help is greatly appriciated and contributes alot to Rods book, which is obviously a good starting point. The studio will most likely be built in a basement-garage. The dimensions (outer leaf) to work with are 235cm (h) x 445 cm (w) x 500 cm (L). This is obviously to small of a room to build a decent sounding CR AND LR, so I'm opting for building a one-room studio, which in some ways is even preferable in terms of how I will use it. Anyways, What I seem to be coming back to is room ratio. I've watched and studied other builds and researched this for some time now, and I can't seem to come to any conclusion. The problem is; If I build a decoupled room-within-a-room (which I intend to do, by the book), the ceiling height is going to be real low, even if the spring/air is only 7-10 cm to the outer leaf ceiling (something like 210 cm). This would mean that a "decent" room ratio would also make my width very narrow, and obviously eat up alot of space. Space I want to keep. To add to this problem is the general concensus regarding that small rooms should'nt really focus all that much on ratios, but instead focus on treatment, something I plan to do. So; what do you propose in terms of this dicotomous situation: Space VS Ratio, considering my dimensions? I should add that my main focus here is too get a REALLY GOOD sounding room. So if the solution is treat the hell out of it (i.e spend money/time on treatment) and don't bother too much with the ratio, I am absolutely willing to do that. But what I don't want is modes that will make my room "untreatable".

idfalk wrote:

In my research I have now come to some conclusions,... What I seem to be coming back to is room ratio. I've watched and studied other builds and researched this for some time now, and I can't seem to come to any conclusion.

Look at the recommended and "second best" room ratios from Trevor Cox's Room Sizing Tutorial]. You should find several close ones, if not exactly what you can build between the recommended and second best ratios. Well proportioned and generously, Andre

Andre, Thank you, although I must say that I'm not sure of what ratios you are referring to. To me the "ratios robust to room size" seems to be problematic for my proposed dimension if I were to use as much space as possible, i.e making the widht and length come dangerously close (outer leaf w x l: 4,45 m x 5 m). Could you please elaborate, or perhaps even provide a ratio you feel could fit (sorry if I've misunderstood you). As I see it, all the "good" ratios that Cox present seems to cluster around 1:2.19:3 which would be troublesome for my room given the independent variable - the low ceiling. Thank you as always Andre, hope I'm not rude. Figuring this out is hard and annoying for whomever has to answer my questions, I would think.

I might have totally confused how to use room ratios. In my innocence I thought that for ex. 1:2,19:3 should be calculated as height (1) times widht (2,19) - and then that sum times 3 for lenght. Am I totally wrong here? Is it height (1) times widht (2,19) and then height times length (3)? Sorry for this newbie question.

idfalk wrote:

Is it height (1) times widht (2,19) and then height times length (3)? Sorry for this newbie question.

Yes it is. Do not apologize for not knowing. You did not know and you asked. You now know. It is a stupid person who does not ask when they do not something. Andre

Eureka! Thanks Andre. This will render my search for an acceptable ratio easier, to say the least. Another thing I have found a bit interesting is whether - and how - the room ratio will be affected by splayed "walls", not the inner leaf but splayed slats along the "mixing part" of my room. My thought here is that as long as theres no drywall in these splayed walls - then they wont have any considerable implications on the ratio. Is this a sound assumption? I've included an early sketch of the room. But this sketch has not been modified to fit a ratio yet, and is obviously not finished. Just to get you an idea of how I am approaching this.There will be more treatment, speaker soffits and I am not sure about the whole inside-out thing yet since I am really still unsure of how to construct the ceiling that way.

idfalk wrote:

Another thing I have found a bit interesting is whether - and how - the room ratio will be affected by splayed "walls", not the inner leaf but splayed slats along the "mixing part" of my room. My thought here is that as long as theres no drywall in these splayed walls - then they wont have any considerable implications on the ratio. Is this a sound assumption?

That can not be answered without knowing what the surfaces of the splayed sections are. If it is cloth covering absorbent, then yes, it will have no effect.