Hi guys,
First off, let me say that this forum and all the great info here has been a godsend. i look forward to a lot of constructive conversation with you all. This site has singlehandedly contributed to my unproductivity at work over the last month and saved my sanity during a week long public holiday.
A little bit about me: i'm an electronic engineer currently working as an electrical engineer for a telecomms company. notice anything about music in there....nope. When i started out reading this forum i went from: psssh, building a studio, how hard can it be, to hmm, that's interresting, to oh my soul, how am i ever gonna get this right and now i'm at. Oh boy, what a challenge, i cant wait to get this going.
So What am i trying to accomplish: The idea is to start up a small, but high quality recording, mixing studio with some extremely musical friends of mine. Basically, i'll bring the facility, they bring the music, the musos, the talent. I really want to do this cash so the budget is a little tight, in the region of USD85,000. Bear in mind this will have to include, ground, municipality fees, building, equipment, the whole thing basically. I am looking at doing this in Pretoria by the way, maybe jo'burg if i really have to.
We'll be looking at building the following elements:
1. One Live room suitable for a whole band.
2. One Control room
3. Two voice booths/amp rooms.
4. Storage
5. kitchen and lavatory services
How loud will we be? no idea but from reading around hear i think 120dB will be sufficient.
How loud are we allowed to be? If i buy ground in an urban non residential zone the ambient sound limit is 60dB at the borderof my property during the day and 50dB during the night. the tricky part is the noise prohibitions which state:
"(i) No person shall operate or play, or allow to be operated or played, a radio,
television set, drums, musical instrument, sound amplifier, loudspeaker system or
similar device producing, reproducing or amplifying sound so as to cause a noise
nuisance. "
with a noise nuisance defined as:
"Noise nuisance is defined as any sound which disturbs or impairs, or may
disturb or impair the convenience or peace of any reasonable person considering time of
day and environment. It is not quantitatively measurable and relates to aspects such as
barking dogs. Refer to Section 3.7.3.5. This introduces the need for a professional
qualitative assessment of the noise source and the impacted environment. "
Now over the past couple of weeks i have had some really crazy ideas about how to go about achieving what i want to achieve, and i want to share some of them with you guys:
1. excavating and building the live room underground a la umbrella corporation. (somebody tell me this isn't going to be crazy expensive so i can seriously consider it)
2. using shipping containers for the amp rooms and voice booth. (This i think i'm gonna look at doing properly, The Spark one looked AMA-zing).
Back to reality, im looking at building separate buildings for the various elements to try and increase isolation. building will consist of brick as that is most common around here. As you can tell i am VERY much still in the research stage, but hoping the number crunching will work out cool so that i can build this thing.
OK questions...
i've got two sets one for fellow seffricans basically concerning local conditions, code, etc. and some for all the other experts out there.
Seffrican questions:
1. What sort of zoning is required for a recording studio business. i've sort of determined that residential will not be cool with the government, but does anybody know for sure whether i need commercial or industrial zoning?
2. What does the OHSact say about sound(noise, ugh hopefully not) in the workplace. This will determine the final sound levels for the interior of the control room.
3. what does it cost to dig a really big hole :evil:
4. Does anybody know if the municipality will have any issues with me pouring a slab and slapping down some containers (converted without official plans that is)?
General questions:
1. Let's say you are a five piece band, how much space would you want to be comfortable recording in?
2. If each of my rooms are seperate buildings each about a meter away from each other, how much trouble will flanking through the slab cause me in the isolation department, seeing as i've got the whole planet for damping beneath me?
3. HVAC wise, if i run the ducting through the slab: will this take care of any sound traveling through the ducting(i think so)? That just leaves me with the fan and airflow noise?
4. How many of you want to come to a sunny south african roof wetting party?
Cheers and Beers
Mew
New Studio in SA... maybe
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 14244.
Hi Mew. If you build individual structures you introduce many things that extend your work and money. It may get you the isolation between buildings but it will also require (1) each, HVAC per building and the electrical to bridge these structures together just keeps getting longer and higher in cost. I know you guys build mostly with brick and mortar so that is great for isolation as a start. I guess the question is how hard is it to get your hands on wood framing members and sheetrock as these are the easier materials to build inner walls for your build. Back to your slab, you can have developed a slab that would allow the entire studio to be under the same roof but still have a decoupled (cut) slab at the boundaries of each room. Depending on the actual slab quality (thickness, concrete PSI, etc.) you can build one slab and place the entire structure on this as well, and then sub-divide the interior to the dimensions of your rooms. In any event, getting the entire build under one roof is probably the better idea of the two. You are free to explore the option of individual buildings, but the cost goes up exponentially, and if money is a deciding factor, you will quickly alter your plans. The other concern about hvac air feeds under the slab is OK on the face of it. When your hvac system is properly spec'ed for this build it will include oversized ducting and silencer boxes, baffles, and often a series of 90 degree turns, etc. to break flanking and air-borne connections between the machine and the building and to slow down the air movement. This will be difficult to do with an under/in slab air feed. I am certain it could be done, but there again, it's not tried and true and comes with a package of problems that will be difficult to gather information, accurate information, on. And the level of difficulty to actually build this type of passage would require so much for-thought and blueprinting to make certain the concrete forms are placed where they need to be, at the level or degree or depth, they need to be...it's just to much like work ;)2. If each of my rooms are seperate buildings each about a meter away from each other, how much trouble will flanking through the slab cause me in the isolation department, seeing as i've got the whole planet for damping beneath me? 3. HVAC wise, if i run the ducting through the slab: will this take care of any sound traveling through the ducting(i think so)? That just leaves me with the fan and airflow noise?
Hi xSpace,
Thanks a lot for the quick reply. i guess i knew these answers all along, but a guys got to dream. i was having daydreams of nice grassy lawns and passages between rooms, but i suppose its time to get realistic.
I suppose the reason i came up with the seperate building idea is because im not sure if code will allow for what amounts to basically seperate floors (slabs) in the same structure and remembering that the slab will also need to be isolated from the boundary wall.
I find it interresting that you say:
Does this mean that there is a certain golden quality (thickness, hardness) of slab where flanking becomes a non-issue? Wood framing, may be a problem, but im not sure, some of the other south african guys seems to have gotten their hands on it easily enough. if push comes to shove i'll use steel framing. rhinowall makes a product and i can get sheetrock from them as well. Some feedback on some of my own research: OHSA SA. I found a copy of the OHSA no 85 from 1993 online, and am proceeding on the assumption that it is the latest. If anybody knows if im looking at old stuff please let me know. anyway, i couldnt find any reference to noise, sound, dB anywhere in the file, so im guessing no hard reference for acceptable behaviour :shock: It does state that an (self)employer must make all effort to not cause physical harm to staff or anybody who may be on the premesis and must provide ways to identify risk and deal with it. so im thinking an SPL meter in the live room and control room and a good talking to at the musicians about not exceeding 100dB and then letting them rock out :evil: SABS 0400-1990 Ok, so i'm reading the building code of practice. yes thats right all 227 pages of it. and the thing references about 227 other codes, so guess i've got to get hold of those as well. Anyway about 20% through it now. seems that every single thing needs to be signed off by a professional engineer (or approved competent person). that reads expensive. It seems that there is a seperate code for sound isolation which should help with proving and getting approvals. i've got to get my hands on that. Ok design decision time: 1. everything will be in one building 2. no under floor ducting (HVAC) Todo: stop daydreaming. Read some more code. get hold of even more code. pour my brain out of my ears and carry it home carefully in a glass jar. Questions still begging for answers: Seffrican questions: 1. What sort of zoning is required for a recording studio business. i've sort of determined that residential will not be cool with the government, but does anybody know for sure whether i need commercial or industrial zoning? 2. what does it cost to dig a really big hole :evil: General questions: 1. Let's say you are a five piece band, how much space would you want to be comfortable recording in? 2. How many of you want to come to a sunny south african roof wetting party? 3. Is there a "golden" slab where flanking becomes a non-issue, or am i complete misunderstanding?Depending on the actual slab quality (thickness, concrete PSI, etc.) you can build one slab and place the entire structure on this as well, and then sub-divide the interior to the dimensions of your rooms.
"3. Is there a "golden" slab where flanking becomes a non-issue, or am i complete misunderstanding?"
Well sir, it isn't about the flanking, it is about having the slab(s) designed to have a natural frequency of below 10Hz, as Rod suggests, 16Hz I think is what Everest states in the Master Handbook of Acoustics, and the frequency can be even lower depending on the use of the slab.
I can read the math that it takes to figure this out, but I can't do it as of yet ;)
Other things like consistency of thickness in the concrete pour and >proper< curing methods and time frames are imperative in having a slab that gets better with time.
You could split the difference, and do it in Halfway House! :) (I used to live there a few decades ago...)I am looking at doing this in Pretoria by the way, maybe jo'burg if i really have to.
Ouch! That's kind of a tough regulation, where nobody knows if you are meeting the "standard" or not, and anyone can complain based on nothing! Wow. That is a tough one. Maybe you should look for rural property, rather than residential? Or at least get a large-ish plot of land, with neighbors far away."Noise nuisance is defined as any sound which disturbs or impairs, or may disturb or impair the convenience or peace of any reasonable person considering time of day and environment. It is not quantitatively measurable
That will certain work, but "....somebody tell me this isn't going to be crazy expensive so i can seriously consider it..."... hmmm I don't think I can tell you that! :( Better to get some rough idea of how much, by talking to local contractors.1. excavating and building the live room underground ...
That will also work, but it kind of contradicts your stated goal: "One Live room suitable for a whole band." Containers aren't big enough for that.2. using shipping containers for the amp rooms and voice booth.
Depends on the band, and what they are playing (instruments, genre, etc.).1. Let's say you are a five piece band, how much space would you want to be comfortable recording in?
Not sure about the RSA, but where I live right now (Chile), any place zoned as "agricultural / rural" the rules are basically out the window. You can pretty much build whatever you want, how you want, and if it falls down on your head in the next earthquake, that's your problem. OK, it's not quite THAT lax :shock: , but you get the idea: rural code is a lot less demanding than others. It might be the same for RSA. You might want to check on that.im not sure if code will allow for what amounts to basically seperate floors (slabs) in the same structure and remembering that the slab will also need to be isolated from the boundary wall.
It's not just a matter of level: it also relates to exposure time. In the USA, last time I checked OSHA recommendations were for maximum exposure before irreversibel hearing damage was something like 8 hours at 85 dB, then you have to cut the exposure time in half for every 5 dB increase. So 90 dB is 4 hours, 95 dB is 2 hours, 100 db is one hours, 105 is 30 minutes, 110 is 15 minutes, 120 dB is 3 minutes. (Drummers please note: at normal drumming level of 115 db, your maximum safe exposure time is 15 minutes...). So an SOL meter on the console is not going to cut it. It has to measure the "dose" (I forget the technical term), not just the level.so im thinking an SPL meter in the live room and control room and a good talking to at the musicians about not exceeding 100dB and then letting them rock out
... and the most important thing of all: Buy Rod's book, and buy the MHoA.... :) - Stuart -Todo: stop daydreaming. Read some more code. get hold of even more code. pour my brain out of my ears and carry it home carefully in a glass jar.
Hi Guys,
Sorry for being so quiet, work is getting rather hectic at the moment. A new boss and end of contract handovers.
Thanks for clearing that up for me xspace, i suppose it makes sense.
Thank you for the reply Stuart,
Halfway house? :| Half the traffic either way. :? i don't know, i suppose an hour and a half is better than three, but i'd much rather build close to home, especially taking into account the rising costs of fuel.
RE the live room underground. maybe im being silly, but i'll go talk to some contractors soon as im back in south africa.
I think you are misunderstanding my intention with the containers. i was thinking live room and two containers. but though it may be quicker, it looks like i'll still need aproved plans for them. even if i classify them as temporary buildings.
Still reading the code, so far nothing about seperate slabs, but i think our code is national and equally strict everywhere, so i don't think i'll get away with "shoddy" work to reach my goals.
you're right about the OHSA sound thing. i managed to find the regulations regarding NIHL (noise induced hearing loss) and it sets a limit of 85dB per 8 hours, same as yours, but the time reductions happen every 3dB :shock: and i will need to get a dosimeter.
i'll get the books most definitely and start reading as soon as i'm back where i have proper access to english bookshops and internet buying.
Okay, so i've been thinking about quiet cooling solutions, and read something about radiant floor cooling. though i must admit im not too sure that its a good idea. i dont know whether cooling in this mattter works as well as heating in this manner. Does anybody have any experience with this type of cooling and heating.
To Do:
Buy and absorb Rod's book
Buy and absorb the MHoA
Read some more code
find cheap access to SABS/SANS standards
Go and speak to architects when back in SA.
Go and speak to some builders when back in SA.
Questions still begging for answers:
Seffrican questions:
1. What sort of zoning is required for a recording studio business. i've sort of determined that residential will not be cool with the government, but does anybody know for sure whether i need commercial or industrial zoning?
2. what does it cost to dig a really big hole
General questions:
1. Let's say you are a five piece band, how much space would you want to be comfortable recording in?
2. How many of you want to come to a sunny south african roof wetting party?
3. Does radiant floor cooling actually work?
1. I would say a 6 x 9 meters room would pretty much do it 2. If you pay the tickets, sure :D 3. I think so (here we use it for heating actually), But it might be MUCH cheaper to just buy an AC systemHi Guys, General questions: 1. Let's say you are a five piece band, how much space would you want to be comfortable recording in? 2. How many of you want to come to a sunny south african roof wetting party? 3. Does radiant floor cooling actually work?