Wonderful site, thanks for being here.
We recently purchased a rural home, 3300 sq ft living space, but it's an old house (75 years?) with two consecutive additions. My studio will be beneath the 1st addition, just below the living room. The studio dimension will be 20' X 13', concrete block on 3 sides*, no windows, concrete floor applied with Spreadrock. There is a 6X6" beam that runs the long axis for load bearing, and consequently there will be 2 posts and a load bearer in the framed 6' wall at one end.
My concern at this point is the ceiling. I'm not so concerned yet about interior acoustics (this is a slow build), rather isolation from exterior noise. The floor above is subject to heavy traffic, 2 kids, 2 dogs, 4 cats and a wife who is vacuum-obsessive. Right now interior acoustic affectations are secondary to eliminating or minimizing noise from above and transmitted through joists and the framework for the 6' wall.
The situation would be fairly simple but for two problems; 1) The ceiling is 6'9" from floor to bottom of ceiling timbers. That doesn't leave me much room for proper application of materials such as rigid fiberglas or Sheetblock, especially in the process recommended. 2nd Cost, which is one reason that this will be a slow build. I wish I were made of just a little more money, but alas...
The joists are 2x6, but many have doublers because of the age of the place and until recently moisture issues. The floor above consists of 1/2"X6" pine covered with 3/4" plywood, a heavy upgrade carpet underlay (previous owner was a carpet contractor) and a half-inch pile carpet. I have raised the beam below to where the floor is level, and as an added benefit there is little to no "creak", but voices, vibration from the damn vacuum and the thump of little feet are prevalent and annoying.
I'm looking for inexpensive suggestions to quiet that ceiling down prior to sheetrock and tape. I realize that most of my problem is transmission through the lumber, just don't have the available height or funds to install the "good stuff".
* For those concerned that I am building the equivalent of an acoustic cracker box, On one of the long block walls I'm planning to angle approx 1/3 of the top of that wall (about 2.5 ft) with frame and sheetrock. Is there a formula to calculate degree of angle for that? Acoustic panels will also be applied before this project is complete.
Thanks for any help!
New Studio, Old Basement, LOW Noisy Ceiling
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13895.
Hi "Stetto", and welcome!
I'd suggest you take a look around this forum, and search for builds similar to what you are facing. There are quite a few of those. But if you want great isolation from those noises, then the basic truth is that the floor above your head and the walls around your room will have to become the outer-leaf of a proper two-leaf system. That means that you will have to build another set of walls just inside the existing walls, but NOT touching them anywhere, then put joists across the top of your new "inner-leaf" walls that will support your new "inner-leaf" ceiling.
Once again, NOTHING on this new inner leaf will touch anything on the outer leaf: They will be totally separate, independent, "decoupled" leaves. The inner leaf will consist of a simple stud frame with sheetrock attached to only ONE side of the studs. Ditto the ceiling. The gap between the outer and inner leaves must be at least 4 inches deep, preferably more, and must be filled with fiberglass or rockwool. Both the existing outer leaf and the new inner leaf must be sealed absolutely air-tight. Install electrics, install extremely massive triple-sealed door(s), install fully silenced HVAC system, treat the resulting interior acoustically as needed, and you are done!
You might need to beef up the existing floor above you as part of the process.
That will get you the isolation that you need.
That's pretty tight! But if that's all you've got, then you have to live with it. You don't say what you plan to use the space for, but if you work carefully and take into account some of the tricks outlined here and in Rod's book, you can probably end up with a final ceiling height of around 6'6" or so. Not good acoustically, especially if you plan to track drums in there, but probably usable if all you want is just a control room or just a practice room.The ceiling is 6'9" from floor to bottom of ceiling timbers.
Folks here will tell you to forget "Sheetblock", and just go for normal drywall (gypsum board, sheetrock, plaster board, etc.). What you need is mass, and lots of it. Plain old drywall is just that: Plenty of mass at a cheap price. You can pay more for your mass if you want, but the question is: why would you do that? Go for the cheapest, most dense mass you can get. Drywall fits that bill perfectly.That doesn't leave me much room for proper application of materials such as rigid fiberglas or Sheetblock,
Even more reason to forget the exotic, expensive stuff that has no advantages, and go for plain old ordinary building materials: wood or metal studs, drywall, and fiberglass (or rock wool).2nd Cost, which is one reason that this will be a slow build.
The only way you can "quiet it down" cheaply is by isolating the entire room, as outlined above, with the normal "fully decoupled two-leaf" approach. There is no cheaper way to do it. And the good news is that the "good stuff" is plain old sheetrock and stud framing! Forget the "expensive stuff". "Expensive" does not necessarily equate to "good" in acoustics. Or at least, the "expensive stuff" is practically always no better than ordinary building materials, used intelligently. There are no magic materials in acoustics: the laws of physics that govern the entire universe apply to all manufacturers of all materials, so any manufacturer that makes outrageous claims for their expensive materials, is not telling the truth. The simple fact is that there are only two ways to block sound from getting between "A" and "B". One way is to place a total vacuum between "A" and "B", which is kind of hard unless you live on the moon. The other way is to put a huge amount of mass between "A" and "B". The sound waves really don't care how much you paid for your mass: cost is not a factor in the equations of physics that define how sound behaves (the formulas have no $ signs in them). So you might as well use the cheapest mass that you can get and that will do the job. Beware of manufacturers that want to sell you wonderful acoustic products at high prices. You don't need those. That's not to say that building a studio is cheap: it isn't, because you DO need LOTS of mass, and you need airtight seals, and careful construction, and HVAC, and electrical, and other stuff. But it doesn't need to be any more expensive than the cost of plain old ordinary building materials, for the most part.I'm looking for inexpensive suggestions to quiet that ceiling down prior to sheetrock and tape. I realize that most of my problem is transmission through the lumber, just don't have the available height or funds to install the "good stuff".
what do you plan to make the 4th wall out of? Without a 4th wall, you don't even HAVE a room! - Stuart -The studio dimension will be 20' X 13', concrete block on 3 sides*,
Hi Stuart, and thanks both for the quick reply and the welcome! I spent much of the day reading and searching the forums. I did see some similar situations, but again, floating the room, or at least the ceiling, is going to be a stiff ticket. The room will be used predominantly to record myself and others, mostly acoustic guitars and vocals but there will be occasional sessions with a combo. Except in situations with a percussionist with a small kit, volume levels should be pretty tame. The property that comes with the house has a good 4 acres of cleared land, and I eventually plan to build a stand-alone studio from the ground up. So, in effect, though I may be in this basement a few years, as a studio it is going to be relatively temporary. I plan on using a lot of duvets, floor rugs and iso-panels for recording, hence my focus on silencing the ceiling.Hi "Stetto", and welcome! I'd suggest you take a look around this forum, and search for builds similar to what you are facing. There are quite a few of those. But if you want great isolation from those noises, then the basic truth is that the floor above your head and the walls around your room will have to become the outer-leaf of a proper two-leaf system. That means that you will have to build another set of walls just inside the existing walls, but NOT touching them anywhere, then put joists across the top of your new "inner-leaf" walls that will support your new "inner-leaf" ceiling.
6'6" doesn't spook me (I'm 5'6"), but some of the people I work with musically are well over 6'. I'd love even an 8' ceiling to work with, but as you said, I have to live with it.That's pretty tight! But if that's all you've got, then you have to live with it. You don't say what you plan to use the space for, but if you work carefully and take into account some of the tricks outlined here and in Rod's book, you can probably end up with a final ceiling height of around 6'6" or so. Not good acoustically, especially if you plan to track drums in there, but probably usable if all you want is just a control room or just a practice room.The ceiling is 6'9" from floor to bottom of ceiling timbers.
Well that's good to hear. I have access to a LOT of sheetrock. 8)Folks here will tell you to forget "Sheetblock", and just go for normal drywall (gypsum board, sheetrock, plaster board, etc.). What you need is mass, and lots of it. Plain old drywall is just that: Plenty of mass at a cheap price. You can pay more for your mass if you want, but the question is: why would you do that? Go for the cheapest, most dense mass you can get. Drywall fits that bill perfectly.That doesn't leave me much room for proper application of materials such as rigid fiberglas or Sheetblock,
That's another thing. I work in the construction trades (paint & commercial caulking contractor), and I have accumulated quite a few favors owed from others over the years. A lot of this build consists of favors returned. The problem is that these guys build houses and can't be left unattended when the specs are out of their league...Even more reason to forget the exotic, expensive stuff that has no advantages, and go for plain old ordinary building materials: wood or metal studs, drywall, and fiberglass (or rock wool).2nd Cost, which is one reason that this will be a slow build.
Gotcha.The only way you can "quiet it down" cheaply is by isolating the entire room, as outlined above, with the normal "fully decoupled two-leaf" approach. There is no cheaper way to do it. And the good news is that the "good stuff" is plain old sheetrock and stud framing! Forget the "expensive stuff". "Expensive" does not necessarily equate to "good" in acoustics. Or at least, the "expensive stuff" is practically always no better than ordinary building materials, used intelligently.I'm looking for inexpensive suggestions to quiet that ceiling down prior to sheetrock and tape. I realize that most of my problem is transmission through the lumber, just don't have the available height or funds to install the "good stuff".
The 4th wall will be 2X6 framed across the 13' dimension. The room is actually 27'. I need to leave that extra 7' as a landing and hallway to the rest of the basement. So one wall will be framed and rocked. Please understand, I'm not looking for absolute perfection, and I know that folks that do acoustic design & construction pursue perfection, so I know where you're coming from in that regard. I appreciate your input Stuart, and have already realized much. Ericwhat do you plan to make the 4th wall out of? Without a 4th wall, you don't even HAVE a room! - Stuart -The studio dimension will be 20' X 13', concrete block on 3 sides*,
Well, it's not actually about floating the room: Floating an entire room is really hard to do right, and really expensive. Even just floating the floor is not for the faint of heart! You don't have the space nor the budget to float anyway, so I'd say that floating is out. Rather, this is only about building another frame within the existing room. That frame will not be floated: it will be firmly attached to the exiting concrete floor. You don't need a lot of isolation, from what you say, so floating isn't necessary. But decoupling absolutely is absolutely necessary. Floating and decoupling are related, but very different things. You don't need to float, but you do need to decouple. Bluntly, if you don't build a new ceiling that is decoupled from the existing one, then you have no chance at all of getting rid of those noises that are bothering you. Or at least, not at a reasonable cost. Without a two-leaf system, you are stuck with mass law. Mass law states that if you DOUBLE the mass of the entire roof above you, then you will get an increase of 6 db in isolation, at best. In other words, if you were to exactly DUPLICATE the entire mass of the structure that you already have up there in the floor, you wouldn't even cut the noise down by half (subjectively). To cut it down by half, you'd need to double the entire mass, then double THAT mass again. You'd need FOUR TIMES the mass that you have now, just to get the level down to half of what it is now. Since you say that the noise is very annoying right now, by quadrupling what you already have, you would probably get it down from being "very annoying" to merely being "quite annoying". That probably isn't what you are looking for! But the laws of physics don't lie, and you can't get around them, so that's what you'll get. But that's the GOOD news. Now for the BAD news: You won't even get that much! Mass law is only valid for air-borne sounds: In your case, you most likely won't even get close to a 6db increase per mass doubling, since you say that the noise is structure-borne: it is impact noise traveling directly in the structure of the building, so mass law won't help you much there! The noise will "flank" around/through your mass, and will not be attenuated much by it. In other words, unless you decouple your room new properly with a good 2-leaf envelope all around it (except for the floor), your chances of getting rid of those sounds down to acceptable levels, are pretty close to zero. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the how the laws of physics work.floating the room, or at least the ceiling, is going to be a stiff ticket.
OK, so that clarifies that your big issue remains incoming family noise, most of which is structure-borne impact noise. Outgoing airborne noise is not too much of a problem for you it seems. Which brings us back to the point that the only cheap way to stop it, is to build a 2-leaf structure. Simple wood frame (all four inner walls, plus the inner ceiling), probably using 2x6 at 24"OC, a couple of layers of 5/8 sheetrock on only ONE side of that frame, sealed airtight, and you'll get what you want.The room will be used predominantly to record myself and others, mostly acoustic guitars and vocals but there will be occasional sessions with a combo. Except in situations with a percussionist with a small kit, volume levels should be pretty tame.
OK, so that will be your 4th OUTER leaf wall. You'll still need to build and sheetrock an ADDITIONAL frame a few inches inside that one, as part of your INNER leaf wall. And once again, the inner leaf here CANNOT touch the outer leaf. Two separate, decoupled structures. That outer leaf will of course be tied into the existing concrete walls, and sealed airtight, but the inner-leaf will not touch any part of that at all:_ not the new outer-leaf wall, not the existing concrete walls, and not the existing ceiling. The only thing it can touch is the existing floor.The 4th wall will be 2X6 framed across the 13' dimension. The room is actually 27'. I need to leave that extra 7' as a landing and hallway to the rest of the basement. So one wall will be framed and rocked.
It's not so much a matter of perfection, as a matter of the laws of physics. Anything LESS than perfection simply wont work. Plain and simple. For example, if you were to go to all the time and effort to build your new room exactly as I outlined above, but you left a 1/16 inch gap along one edge of the new ceiling where it meets the new wall, then you did it all for nothing. That "little tiny insignificant" 1/16 gap is all that you need to totally destroy acoustic isolation properties of the entire construction. The exact same would happen if you actually did build it perfectly, sealed absolutely airtight, but didn't notice that one nail went too far, all the way through one of the new joists, across the gap, and into one of the old joists as well, creating a solid bridge between the leaves. That, too, would destroy the isolation. So it isn't about pursuing perfection just because studio builders happen to like perfection: it is about pursuing perfection because anything LESS than perfection simply doesn't work. You'd be wasting your time and money if you didn't build it perfectly. I saw this in practice recently, in a studio where they had not yet sealed a single 25mm conduit that runs cables between the CR and LR. The isolation in the LR was totally shot. Useless. You could clearly hear conversation and music from the CR inside the LR, with all the doors tightly sealed. The LR was absolutely unusable like that. Worthless. After they finished running the cables and sealed the conduit, the problem disappeared. All due to a simple little plastic conduit not being sealed. That alone destroyed thousands of dollars worth of design and construction, and weeks of work. In studio construction, anything less than perfection is pointless. - Stuart -Please understand, I'm not looking for absolute perfection, and I know that folks that do acoustic design & construction pursue perfection, so I know where you're coming from in that regard.
Welcome Stetto:
You are in good hands with Stuart. One remark regarding perfection in studio building. It is not perfection that is the goal. Perfection does not exist. Teh goal is to recognize the compromises and build to them. What is correct in studio building is that things have to be done right, because good enough does not exist in compromises.
Uncompromisingly,
Andre
ps: The percents in my tag line refer to amateur building and time involved.
Whew, what an education! Pardon my confusion regarding "floating" and "decoupling". My novice is certainly showing. I appreciate the guidance.
Just a little more info;
Two of the concrete block (hollow cinderblock) walls are at the perimeter of the house, meaning they are in contact with nothing but mother earth and a solid foundation wall of about 9" in thickness behind those. Will they still need decoupled? I am hoping to leave those walls exposed, as there has been moisture issues from previous firred walls that needed mitigated for mold. There will be 5 or 6 coats of paint on them.
The remaining hollow cinderblock wall is actually separated by 18 or so inches from another cinderblock wall that comprises the third addition to the house. Those two layers of cinderblock with 18" of air between would count as decoupled? The room on the other side is the kids' entertainment room, TV, stereo, etc. As noisy as those kids are I have never been able to hear them through that wall.
Having glossed (meaning my eyes over :shock: ) through diagrams on John's construction page, am I correct in assuming I can perhaps get away with a staggered stud wall and avoid a second leaf inside?
Back to the ceiling. Am I to understand that the existing ceiling should be insulated, rocked and taped prior to adding a leaf?
Should I hardwire my tracklighting boxes through the existing joists or between the leafs?
As I mentioned earlier, I am a paint/commercial caulking contractor by day. There's not a room I can't seal airtight (that includes several biological research labs in Wyoming in 1990)...
I'm going to continue searching pics and diagrams of methods and approaches to decoupling that ceiling, it seems that I'm terribly visually oriented--Comes from being a tradesman, I guess.
Thanks again Stuart
Eric
Oh, and Andre, those percentages seem to occur a lot in my business as well... 8)
Tough call! If the impact noise is in those walls, then you really should have an inner-leaf in front of them. But since they are damped by the entire planet on the other side, there might not be much noise in them. And the moisture / mold issue, of course, might well be a problem. Probably the construction experts can better comment on that situation than I can. But if you can't build an inner-leaf in front of those walls, then the problem would be: how do you get a true MSM structure all around your room? That's question for folks like André, Rod and Ro, I reckon.Two of the concrete block (hollow cinderblock) walls are at the perimeter of the house, meaning they are in contact with nothing but mother earth and a solid foundation wall of about 9" in thickness behind those. Will they still need decoupled? I am hoping to leave those walls exposed, as there has been moisture issues from previous firred walls that needed mitigated for mold. There will be 5 or 6 coats of paint on them.
Yep! It seems like you aren't getting any flanking around it at all, if the noisy TV/kids on the other side are inaudible in your space. In fact, putting up another leaf in front of that might even make matters WORSE, since it would be a third leaf, but the masses and 18" gap are probably way big enough that this would not be an issue at all: the small increase in the resonant frequency of that system will probably be negligible. But once again, if you don't put a new leaf in front of that wall, how are you going to build your MSM shell? Hmmm.....The remaining hollow cinderblock wall is actually separated by 18 or so inches from another cinderblock wall that comprises the third addition to the house. Those two layers of cinderblock with 18" of air between would count as decoupled?
Yeah, you should be OK with that. You don't need a lot of isolation, so a staggered stud wall should do the trick. Except, you'd need to figure out how to tie the inner-leaf pf that staggered stud wall to the other inner-leaf walls and ceiling. That might get complex. It doesn't seem like space is too much of an issue for you, so is there a reason why you prefer staggered stud to two separate frames? The amount of material that goes into it is roughly the same, either way, so cost isn't too much of a factor in deciding. How about posting some photos of what you have, and doing an accurate basic model in SketchUp, to give a better idea of what you have, and what you plan to do? Trying to visualize from a text description ain't easy! - Stuart -am I correct in assuming I can perhaps get away with a staggered stud wall and avoid a second leaf inside?
Yessir, I'll try to get some pics of specifics. I have little expertise with resizing photos, so it may take me a while. Never used SketchUp, so I'll do what I can. Once again, thanks for your time and patience. EricHow about posting some photos of what you have, and doing an accurate basic model in SketchUp, to give a better idea of what you have, and what you plan to do? Trying to visualize from a text description ain't easy! - Stuart -
As far as cost, check out my build thread. I am using reclaimed materials from various homes/job sites, etc... Just scouring the ad pages for people throwing wood & materials out. People selling drywall screws, etc.. Anything used or cheap. LOL.
Spreadsheet your actual estimated materials cost then hit the ads.... My Build is estimated at 7K. I am at $550 TOTAL costs thus far and the mix room is 80% complete. I have about $200 in rockwool left to purchase for the Bass trapping.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13289
The only costs I have incurred are insulation and hardware.
Managed to get a nice stash of drywall free, and I have purchased the remaining used drywall I needed for $20 total (6 - full 5/8" - 4x8 sheets) as well as grabbing free used cut sheets of drywall to finish the Control Room.
Presently I am framing for the bass traps to go in next week and then I can call it ready to mix in. Then I start on the live room. I have most of what I need for that room already.
As far as the ceiling, do a triple layer of drywall. And do 5/8" Drywall. That was my solution. Make sure you insulate that ceiling with rockwool (3") and regular pink for as much absorption as you can get before the sound hits that drywall.
Again, that has worked for me.My ceiling is taller than yours, but if you don't float your floor you may be OK. Check out how I did the ceiling joists in one of my photos. That allowed me to place my ceiling abut 1" below the existing studs (without touching) and retain as much headroom as possible.
Use plenty of acoustical sealant. It's your friend. LOL.