New London Studio, the work begins in sketch up

HI fellas long time i know , but i built that studio in Surrey, worked there for 3 years and now the Owners have sold the whole business, im back in London and about to install myself a new studio. and again i would like to ask your kind help and guidance. I will start Sketch ups in a day or so so you can see what im about to do, but i need to ask a fundamental question. the studio is going into 3 store rooms in the car park of my apartment building, (i used to commute 26 miles in each direction to work every day, now i ride the elevator 10 floors!!) some of the room s have walls made of that crumbly grey block that is lite and a bit pour-us, and the edges arnt sealed up tight, and so forth and so when my assistant played some drums in the room and i stood outside , i could hear more drums than i needed, so i figured seal up all the air gaps and line the walls in Hard wall or thick plaster both sides, my builder disagrees and say i should bond plaster board with blobs of Adhesive to the blocks , after sealing the holes round the blocks of course, and then caulk the plaster board for a better insulated effect, What do you say my learned friends? add mass by slapping on plaster or cement to the blocks inside and out as a skin, or blob on some plaster boards on the inside? which will be quieter? best steve

Hello. Well, I don't know about the UK, but in the states, if you are altering ANYTHING in a multi-family zoned building, the BID(building Inspection Department) wants to know about it. This is because of the Codes for fire etc. In the US(from my experience), if these rooms were originally PERMITED and inspected as STORAGE rooms, and now you are making them HABITABLE space,(even if they let you) then you probably are liable if you don't apply for permits. However, like I said...I don't know about the UK.

hi there thank you for letting me know about the permits, we kinda have that end of things covered by the lawyers who are dealing with the Lease, but i wonder if anybody might have some input on what my builder is saying ? his way plaster board dot and dabbed onto the block wall? or a nice thick layer of cement of something to add mass and seal it up? best steve

Hello again. I'd like to offer an opinion, but your information is skant. For instance, are you planning on re-surfacing all 4 walls in ALL the rooms? Are any walls exterior walls? Are you trying to improve the isolation of one room from another? What about penetrations in the walls, such as doors, HVAC registers, or pipes etc? To my way of thinking, these type of things have a bearing on choices. How bout budget? One may be more expensive than the other because of labor? And what type finishes are you applying..ie paint, wood etc? Are you attatching any acoustical treatment fixtures? How about electrical...ie..once you add thickness to the walls, the outlet boxes no longer reach the face of the new material, which may be against code. Same with lighting j-boxes. Not to mention...are these walls a ONE LEAF SYSTEM? Usually, concrete block assemblys have interior voids that are used to insert re-bar and then filled with grout or mortor, which ends up being a one leaf system. You can improve the Transmission loss factor in these assemblys by applying FURRING strips, and then fastening gypsum drywall to the furring, thereby creating an airgap, which now makes a TWO LEAF system which typically performs much better than simply adding mass to a one leaf system. However, this creates other conditions, which may or may not be easily addressed. Such as HVAC ducting extentions, and the electrical, not to mention door jambs etc. But it's hard to say in your situation as you don't know what the existing assembly Transmission loss is, nor do you state what type sound nor the level in db you will be producing in a given room. Nor do you state the purpose of any rooms, nor do you tell us WHO you are trying to keep from offending...ie..are you trying to keep EXTERNAL noise from transmitting into your rooms, or are you trying to keep INTERNAL sound from transmitting to the outside world, or another room, or to a neighbors space? These are the type of information people need to make qualified opinions. You might get more feedback if you provide more info.

hi mate what im asking for is just a general opinion, i dont want specifics, what your saying is correct, but all im asking the readers of this forum , who know a bit about this tuff and who may have built a studio or two in there time, is generally speaking which method tends to give more insulation from noise, to layer up the block walls with Cement or Harwall of plaster? or to apply by a bonding adhesive a layer or two of PLater board , as my builder seems to think, NOw im no expert thats why im on here asking for opinions, but i think my qeusition is simple enough, and all i want to recive is a general response like, dont do the plaster board unless you use resilient channels your builder is talkin doo doo, or do apply a thick layer of cement or hard wall , because it adds mass and fills in all the tiny air gaps , but dont forget to caulk around the edges where the cement might shrink back, that sort of general direction and advice. simple? thanks steve

Steve Honest wrote:

what im asking for is just a general opinion, i dont want specifics, what your saying is correct, but all im asking the readers of this forum , who know a bit about this tuff and who may have built a studio or two in there time, is generally speaking which method tends to give more insulation from noise, to layer up the block walls with Cement or Harwall of plaster? or to apply by a bonding adhesive a layer or two of PLater board , as my builder seems to think,

Youy received the short answer here:

are these walls a ONE LEAF SYSTEM? Usually, concrete block assemblys have interior voids that are used to insert re-bar and then filled with grout or mortor, which ends up being a one leaf system. You can improve the Transmission loss factor in these assemblys by applying FURRING strips, and then fastening gypsum drywall to the furring, thereby creating an airgap, which now makes a TWO LEAF system which typically performs much better than simply adding mass to a one leaf system

The long answer is again what was already posted to you. It depends. More information is required about the specifics of the application. Andre

hi mate thank you for pointing this out to me, i didnt spot it first time round , so my builder is right i must firr or resilent channell and then layer up , cool, nw of course in the block wall i should seal up the cracks and gaps right? steve

Holy moly, must be my lucky day. Thats TWO "+" from andre. :shock: Thats a great gift on my birthday. :mrgreen:

nw of course in the block wall i should seal up the cracks and gaps right?

I would think so. It might even be easier(although I'd check the codes) if you applied a layer of drywall DIRECTLY to the interior block face prior to furring. Once caulked, this adds mass to the outer leaf and also seals it. At least thats what I would do, as sealing old crumbly block may be difficult..if not impossible with recessed mortor lines, cracks, etc. But again, it all depends. Ask your contractor about this. He would probably know because he can SEE the conditions and we can't.

so my builder is right i must firr or resilent channell

Hmmm, just caught this one. Personally, I've never seen an application where RESILIANT CHANNEL is fastened directly to an existing surface. I've only seen it applied to studs or furring strips. In fact, I'm not sure the performance of RC will remain intact when fastening directly to another FLAT surface such as the block...IF thats what you mean. Maybe someone else can chime in on that one. :?

thanks again fella for your help, th wall is in good order, and i think a nice thick coat of something dense might be good, then furrings , or resiliant channels? and then a couple layers of offset gaps plaster boards, cheers steve ps once i get this project properly under way i shall start posting up some SKp s and start giving proper details and also asking better structured questions, just need to get this weeks sessions done, and xmas out of the bleeding way best steve

Steve Honest wrote:

th wall is in good order, and i think a nice thick coat of something dense might be good, then furrings , or resiliant channels? and then a couple layers of offset gaps plaster boards,

Resilient channels were just discounted in the post immediately above yours. Post details before you do anything. See pdf page 9 in NRC IR 586 to see the impact of insulation in the cavity and depth of furring. Andre

See pdf page 9 in NRC IR 586 to see the impact of insulation in the cavity and depth of furring.

:mrgreen: Dang, ya can't escape the tests. :mrgreen: Thanks Andre :lol:

HI CHaps so again thank you for your ind help and advice, we have agreed with the builder to seal the existing lite blocks up with a thick layer of Bonding coat, and then go around caulking up the edges to allow for shrinkage, on top of this we will fit furrings , with a layer of Rocksilk quilt under and so it fluffs up in to gaps between the furrings and over that 2 layers of PLaster board offset of course and caulked up tight, Now what do you think about green glue? very costly , but is it effective? and also is there a more cost effective alternative to green glue? best steve

we have agreed with the builder to seal the existing lite blocks up with a thick layer of Bonding coat, and then go around caulking up the edges to allow for shrinkage, on top of this we will fit furrings , with a layer of Rocksilk quilt under and so it fluffs up in to gaps between the furrings and over that 2 layers of PLaster board

It looks like you didn't check out the paper that André linked you to, if that is still your plan. I think you really should. Simple furring strips will NOT accomplish what you are hoping they will. No way. Not even close. Not even with RC. Not even with RC and Green Glue. You are not looking at the underlying problems, which neither RC nor GG can help you with. It is pointless thinking about those until you FIRST figure out why furring strips attached to your block wall and with sheetrock on top just will not and cannot do what you are hoping that it will. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

It looks like you didn't check out the paper that André linked you to, if that is still your plan. I think you really should.

The best overall TL in the referenced diagram is with z-channel. The worst is with furring strips. Obviously the OP has not even looked at the cited diagram, much less check out the paper. Typically for people who do not know, the best is shown there, and it is considerably cheaper than Green Glue etc. I hope he opens his eyes before spending (wasting?) a lot of money. A funny part is that the corect advice is free. Andre

chaps with respect im following the link but cant locate the paper, it links to a home page could you please pass me a more direct link? to make it easy for my ever so humble self, thanks steve

Steve Honest wrote:

chaps with respect im following the link but cant locate the paper, it links to a home page could you please pass me a more direct link?

I do not know what happened to the link. Here it is again: IR 586. Andre

cool chaps a bit of cut and paste and i found it and i read page 9 of the pdf, the bits that were most relevant, but i must say you could have summed this up in your response rather than some of the pompous attitude i have had to endure from some of you, Knowledge has no value till you share it, and of course simplicity is best in all things steve honest

Well, if you don't like the attitude of people who are trying to show you how to help yourself, then you are probably in the wrong place. Several people pointed out that you were headed down the wrong path with RC over a thin air gap and not decoupling, and you totally ignored their advice, and carried on saying the same thing. If you expect folks here to spell everything out for you and design your room for you, then once again in the wrong place. If that's what you want, then spend the one and hire someone like John to design it for you. But if you expect folks here to show YOU how to learn for YOURSELF, and show YOU how to design the place YOURSELF, then you are definitely in the RIGHT place. The trouble is, you are getting the short end of the stick because you aren't first person to come here and do what you are doing. That isn't your fault, of course, but folks here do get tired of repeating the same advice over and over, and even more tired of knowing that the advice you need is already available all over this forum, in numerous places, if only you would take the time to search for it yourself, and learn yourself. That's what this place is about: researching and learning, and figuring out and asking specific questions when you get stuck, and taking the good advice that the experts give you. If you expect folks to answer your specific questions when you get stuck, then you are also in the right place. But if you expect folks to carry on helping you out after you repeatedly ignore their sound advice, then I guess you'll just hate to put up with the "pompous attitude" you get from people here. - Stuart -

In order to proceed forward, everyone involved must be on the same page. Folks like Andre and Stuart are often tireless in giving away the information that is readily available, often made available by these guys to the poster...if one will add some energy to their own projects it gets everyone orientated. This is not building a shed or a model airplane it is a very costly building process of which typically requires upwards of 6-7 qualified trade-persons and thousands of educational hours to get completed. Read the links and apply them to your area. The reward is yours...not theirs :) Good luck, Brien

chaps I take your points, and i respect them and you all of course, i have been on this site for a while and i am aware how it works, but to be frank, to save your having to repeat yourselves for the likes of me and others , why not get a lexicon pinned up? the basics for some of the situations you have advised upon, a bit like an online gervais book, or you could be a little more plain in your response s, I m not asking you , nor do i need you to do my work for me, but i think you could make this information a little plainer and easier to understand for the layman, dont you think? steve

to save your having to repeat yourselves for the likes of me and others , why not get a lexicon pinned up? the basics for some of the situations you have advised upon, a bit like an online gervais book,

That's actually a really good idea! I think some people have tried that in the past, and there are a few stickies like that around. (Check out xSpace's signature, for example.) But it would be great if there were more of those, arranged neatly and clearly by subject, and cross-linked, covering the basics. I hope John sees this thread and agrees! I'm up to writing a couple of basic posts like that, on the areas that I think I understand reasonably well, for others to comment on and correct, then leave as stickies right at the top of the page. Maybe others could do the same, on their areas of expertise? What do you think, John? Is that a worthwhile endeavor? - Stuart -

WOw im so F****g glad to have got some thing right!! steve

"why not get a lexicon pinned up?" Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will be fed for a lifetime and teach others to fish :)

hi there that fish saying, along with Knowledge has no value till you share it, are the two pillars of my life, thanks steve