Live-Work-Mix-Overdub-track?? all in one space.

Hello everyone. I've been lurking around here for the past 6 years or so. A wealth of information on this site but I have to say all the info and technical aspects available here can feel very overwhelming. I'm self-taught in audio engineering and that seemed overwhelming at first as well, so I'm sure this is no different. I would love for any suggestions from this community. Background I've been in a basement of a house for the last 5 years. I've got a "live" room and a "control" room. Neither are "ideal" but I've learned how to make them work and have made some really cool sounding records here. My control room isn't completely symmetrical, and my live room has 7 ft ceilings and parallel walls.. With treatment of both rooms, I've made them considerably "better" sounding. The $400 I spent on rigid fiberglass did more to improve my records than say the $2300 in api pres. I mostly record rock, punk, metal, noise... mostly the loud stuff, but a lot of these bands do introduce nice dynamics with say violins, cellos, etc. The quiet stuff has always been the hardest due to noise coming from elsewere in the house. I've always tracked the rock bands live with minimal separation/isolation and have had good results. Recently though I've been making an effort to do full band tracking in a commercial studio, much better equipped, room wise, for this. It is time for me to move on. The owners of the house, who are also my roommates, are ready for a new chapter in their lives and it doesn't include a recording studio and musicians hanging out all the time. I'm ready as well to move on. The Next Stage Tomorrow I receive the keys to a 875 sq foot stand alone building in an industrial neighborhood..... and unfortunately, near a small airport and also in the flight path of the larger airport a few miles away. This is going to be me and my girls living space as well as a place for us to create musically and for me to do studio work. My main focus is having a room to do overdubs and mixes in. Hopefully getting more work with budgets to do all the main tracking at different commercial facilities. But would love to be able to track full bands there when the budget isn't available to go elsewhere. That is still a way of me getting a lot of work, catering to the broke punk bands around town and bands that can't afford more than $20 an hour. The landlord is also an artist and knows my full intentions. He stated if I don't spend the time and money on sound isolation, he'd like any loud/full rock band music to be done by 10 p.m. I've worked with that curfew before and have not had a problem. As stated before, this is an industrial neighborhood mostly inhabited by the arts community. The closest neighbors are in a house about 25ft away. I don't expect this to be a totally "commecial" studio. Recording isn't how I make my living, but want a place where I can achieve good results and the freedom of not having to pay two rents.. one for living space and one for studio space. Due to the limit in size and since it's also going to be our "living space" I was really interested in the "one room design" and not having a separate control room. It seems once you start making rooms, within a space that doesn't really have the room, it starts feeling claustraphobic and sounding bad. However, with the above mentioned airplane noise, I feel the need for a "safe room" an isolation booth that is big enough for a musician playing, say a cello or violin, or a vocalist, and big enough to sound ok. Also a room I can throw in a marshall amp cranked to "11" for overdubs, past the 10 curfew hour. the building is supposedly close to 100 years old. There is a basement that the landlord uses for storage. A toilet, hot water heater and two sinks are already installed. We will be installing a shower, somewhere. Here are is an illustrator and sketchup diagram of what we will be walking into. We would really like to keep what is shown as is besides squeezing a shower in there somewhere. I've only been using Sketchup for like a week now.. pretty amazing program, but obviously, i'm very very very new to it. I've never used any other graphics program before... So yeah, please excuse my rudimentary illustrations. I'll post some photos of the construction of the building itself as well when we get the keys passed on to us. Below are a few ideas I've played around with for a simple open layout, but with use of an isolation booth. V1, non parallel walls in the iso, but non symetrical in the control room area. Would enough treatment fix this issue? V2, well, got the symmetry back in the mix area, but now the iso booth is parallel. Would enough treatment fix this issue? And finally, an Idea my buddy who is a contractor came up with. He decided I needed a control room, but would use what he labeled as "control room" as an iso booth. Budget Besides the money needed to make this into a liveable space.... heh... for studio construction, for a simple layout like I'm hoping for, and not spending a lot of money on keeping sound from escaping the building but keeping sound from entering the iso booth, i'm hoping to have around $2,000-$3,000 for construction and acoustic treatment. Again, I'm not looking to build anything really remotely beautiful like many of the studios I've seen on here.. amazing. Just looking to build something effective and useable. It doesn't have to WOW my clientele, just has to function correctly as well has give my girlfriend and I some space to do other things when I'm not recording/mixing. Thank you again for your time, Brandon

I like your 1st design. Sorry to be a girl, but where are you going to live? TV, laundry, shower and dining. I'd run a wall down to give you some space. It couild be used as a drum booth when needed.

lilith_envy wrote:

I like your 1st design. Sorry to be a girl, but where are you goping to live? TV, laundry, shower and dining. I'd run a wall down to give you some space. It couild be used as a drum booth when needed.

Not preserved: studiobasicisov1.jpg

Ahh.. gender stereotyping yourself now? shame shame :D "live"? well there is plenty of living to be done that doesn't happen where one works or sleeps. Living is riding my bike down to one of the awesome bars or restaurants or seeing a show, hanging out with friends, recording music with them. Living doesn't have to have a space. It happens.... :wink: But I understand what you mean. "the living" will be happening in that same space, I don't see how putting up a wall make or "give" me more space.. It will only make rooms feel smaller and less open, less inviting.. and therefore not as multi-purpose as intended. I didn't add in the sketchup where my fridge, table, etc are going to be cause they really don't matter in the idea of where I'm placing my control room area and iso booth.. but I can understand why perhaps they should.. The kitchen is going to be more of a "galley" running along the 12' 6" wall. the fridge will be to the right of the double entry doors. The dining table, will be in front of those nice windows. Laundry will be offsite, just 20 ft away in a basement of another unit the landlord owns. TV, don't watch it. We watch dvd's on her laptop or on my studio computer monitors... Got the keys last night and started cleaning up.. the good news... that back area, the "hall" that leads to the toilet and sink is actually 5' wide so placeing a modular "corner" shower in there will be very very easy. The bad news is.. well noise from the road in front of us is very loud. I"m going to have to spend some time and money really sealing off that door in the corner which is not in use as well as some nice plugs for the windows.. if this was going to be a studio only, and not my living room/apartment as well.. well hell, i'd just room within a room and be without sunlight... but i promised my girlfriend I'd leave the natural light as much as possible. and yeah, if this was going to be JUST a studio, I'd be making a separate live room and control room. That may happen in the future.. but for now.. multi-purpose, chameleon mix/overdub room. Thanks for your input lilith_envy! Appreciated!! Brandon

I've got a stupid question... How do I "embed" my sketch up files for down load within a post here on the forum? Oh wait.. i think i see it down below... "choose file"

I added the wall to make your control symetrical.

lilith_envy wrote:

I added the wall to make your control symetrical.

thanks. will check out when i'm home on the computer with sketchup. Any suggestions on angles these walls should be? How are you liking the inside out walls in your studio, I noticed your build thread. I'm thinking that might be an interesting way of building this isolation booth.

One issue... the three leaf issue... Landlord does not want me removing the wall material on the inside of the two leaf walls that create my exterior walls... so any rooms I create against this wall will be three leaf. I'm guessing this is a situation where you just "live with it" since a three leaf system has a higher STC than a 4 leaf. I plan to double up on the third layer with Green Glue in between them.

trodden wrote:

...since a three leaf system has a higher STC than a 4 leaf.

Not entirely accurate. Either one or the other could have the better STC rating depending on the mass involved, the air cavities and several other considerations. The issue as I have come to understand it, is the loss of isolation in the lower frequencies. A three leaf can lose this as easily as a four leaf. So STC is not the figure you want to be looking at when deciding on which wall is going to have the most negative impact, or the least negative. The TL (transmission loss) and over what frequencies (the slope), how well does it do in the lower region and also how well in the upper and just plain overall really.

xSpace wrote:

trodden wrote:

...since a three leaf system has a higher STC than a 4 leaf.

Not entirely accurate. Either one or the other could have the better STC rating depending on the mass involved, the air cavities and several other considerations. The issue as I have come to understand it, is the loss of isolation in the lower frequencies. A three leaf can lose this as easily as a four leaf. So STC is not the figure you want to be looking at when deciding on which wall is going to have the most negative impact, or the least negative. The TL (transmission loss) and over what frequencies (the slope), how well does it do in the lower region and also how well in the upper and just plain overall really.

Thanks for the reply. So you're saying, depending on what each individual wall, leaf, and air space is made of has more to do with it than how many leaves? Makes sense. Knowing that I want to keep the low freqs in my then yeah. mass and mass... but things could be different in regards to keeping the mid and higher freqs from outside getting in, I'm guessing? And, just make sure you're building/designing things correctly...

trodden wrote:

[b]

The TL (transmission loss) and over what frequencies (the slope), how well does it do in the lower region and also how well in the upper and just plain overall really.

The hig mid and upper freqencies will take care of themselves....... they are always easier to attenuate than low frequencies. Rod

Explain please.

I was told in another forum to not worry about the angles, in regards to the iso booth and control room area, including the angled wall addition suggested by Lilith. It was said that

"I'd do V 2.0, It would be easier to build and the angles that you introduced in V 1 aren't really going to help you that much in rooms of that size."

The thing with the internet... sometimes there are too many ideas out there.. I see small rooms with angles all over the place over here... And its completely obvious you all know a hell a lot more about this than I do.

i didn't add an angeled wall. I added a str8 one from the corner of the vox booth down to the southern wall. the 2 angled slot walls at the front are simply room treatment. don't worry about these until the room is built.

here

I like the direction your contractor friend is taking you. Caveats- The room he designed is not symmetrical, but this is an easy fix - You don't need as much glass as he has installed. -May want a vocal/amp booth as well I like this for several reasons: better sounding mix area better isolation from the traffic/planes and most importantly isolates the rest of the space from you :D I have been in a similar situation and trust me your partner will get tired of listening to drum editing/mixing etc. Having a separate space will make for a better relationship and better mixes-end of dr. phil moment. Steve

lilith_envy wrote:

i didn't add an angeled wall. I added a str8 one from the corner of the vox booth down to the southern wall. the 2 angled slot walls at the front are simply room treatment. don't worry about these until the room is built.

Yes, thanks. I'm interested in the angled slot walls. As mentioned before, not interested in splitting the larger room up, yet.. at least. So you think I should build the iso booth more "square" and then add the angled walls as slotted room treatment later on? Would that make more sense than making the angle an actual part of the iso booth wall (as in idea, version 1, the one you said you prefered) and then adding another angle, the yellow area in your version of design 1, on the right side of the control area.

Cold wrote:

I like the direction your contractor friend is taking you. Caveats- The room he designed is not symmetrical, but this is an easy fix - You don't need as much glass as he has installed. -May want a vocal/amp booth as well I like this for several reasons: better sounding mix area better isolation from the traffic/planes and most importantly isolates the rest of the space from you :D I have been in a similar situation and trust me your partner will get tired of listening to drum editing/mixing etc. Having a separate space will make for a better relationship and better mixes-end of dr. phil moment. Steve

Thanks Steve. Yeah I hear your Dr. Phil moment man. But stated before, Its either a control room or an iso booth for the time being. I see this possibly as a "stage" studio build happening over a couple of years. We'd like to try to keep it as open as possible at first. If it drives her crazy.. well, then we move onto the next stage. Thanks for your suggestions.

So what options does one have if the "avoid like the plague" three leaf system is going to be an issue? I have the exterior leaf (wood paneling), the original interior leaf (gypsum), and then will be building my room within the room for the iso, and eventual control room, making a third leaf. The landlord wishes I do not pull down the interior drywall (leaf number 2). This may be one of those things I just have to live with? Also, would adding a second layer of mass via gypsum board and green glue to the original interior leaf (number 2) give me any more iso for the money or is that a waste? Does increasing the air space between leaf 2 and 3 help much at all? Thanks.

trodden wrote:

So what options does one have if the "avoid like the plague" three leaf system is going to be an issue? I have the exterior leaf (wood paneling), the original interior leaf (gypsum), and then will be building my room within the room for the iso, and eventual control room, making a third leaf. The landlord wishes I do not pull down the interior drywall (leaf number 2). This may be one of those things I just have to live with? Also, would adding a second layer of mass via gypsum board and green glue to the original interior leaf (number 2) give me any more iso for the money or is that a waste? Does increasing the air space between leaf 2 and 3 help much at all? Thanks.

The landlord is going to allow you to install a new fully completed wall[that no one can see behind] but refuses to allow you to modify any of that area[that cannot be seen]? Weird. Since you are already in a less then ideal situation, rather than building a three leaf, why not just add the mass directly to the area in question? Specifically, according to the only drawing of yours that I think is valid or current, there is a closet directly behind a proposed new wall. Just add mass directly to that wall, insteed, and you do not change the dynamic of the wall assembly and the closet directly behind will be to your benefit.

xSpace wrote:

trodden wrote:

So what options does one have if the "avoid like the plague" three leaf system is going to be an issue? I have the exterior leaf (wood paneling), the original interior leaf (gypsum), and then will be building my room within the room for the iso, and eventual control room, making a third leaf. The landlord wishes I do not pull down the interior drywall (leaf number 2). This may be one of those things I just have to live with? Also, would adding a second layer of mass via gypsum board and green glue to the original interior leaf (number 2) give me any more iso for the money or is that a waste? Does increasing the air space between leaf 2 and 3 help much at all? Thanks.

The landlord is going to allow you to install a new fully completed wall[that no one can see behind] but refuses to allow you to modify any of that area[that cannot be seen]? Weird. Since you are already in a less then ideal situation, rather than building a three leaf, why not just add the mass directly to the area in question? Specifically, according to the only drawing of yours that I think is valid or current, there is a closet directly behind a proposed new wall. Just add mass directly to that wall, insteed, and you do not change the dynamic of the wall assembly and the closet directly behind will be to your benefit.

yeah, it is weird. I know. So you are saying, basically, beef up the already existing wall between the big space and the bedroom and use that wall as part of the iso booth wall, build off of that rather than putting another wall in front of it (which would create a three leaf system)