Control Room Shape Question

I'm finally starting layout for the new Strange Weather. The building I've found is a 95' by 25' warehouse with 16' ceilings. Right now it is completely gutted. The walls are 8" cinderblock, and it butts up against two buildings on either side, each of which have 12" brick walls of their own. The warehouse extends behind these buildings by about 40'. The idea is to build two separate studios with a shared lounge. We're in New York so space is a premium. An outside architectural firm is helping with the design but I'd like to give them something to work with, so I've been making rough sketches. I've included the current one below. My question has to do with the control room shape. Right now I have the front of the control room slightly larger than the rear in both cases. However I've noticed that most control rooms seem to be oriented the opposite way. I haven't been able to pinpoint why. I assume it has something to do with early reflections. Some more information on this topic and any other suggestions would be extremely helpful. -marc alan goodman

HI, A few things - It might be the angle, but it also looks like your control rooms are not symmetrical. and yes most studios open up towards the rear. I'm sure the guys will give you a novel length answer on this :D . 1st Reflection, the way sound developes in 3D, speaker set up (soffits) are a few of the reasons I would try to find a control room template that will suit this size space. The shape you have chosen is a little strange and.... Don't let a non acoustic architect design a studio. Questions; Are there any beams or pilers in the guttered space?

Hi Marc. Welcome.

An outside architectural firm is helping with the design but I'd like to give them something to work with, so I've been making rough sketches

Very important point: Does this firm have lots of experience designing successfull sound studios? Can they take you around to meet several of their satisfied studio customers, so you can see and HEAR the results for yourself? If not, then maybe that isn't the best firm for you... designing a studio is nothing like designing a normal office, shop, house or apartment: There are about a zillion and twenty three differences (roughly, give or take a few million...)

Right now I have the front of the control room slightly larger than the rear in both cases. However I've noticed that most control rooms seem to be oriented the opposite way.

Yep. Definitely true.

I haven't been able to pinpoint why. I assume it has something to do with early reflections.

Basically, yes, among several other reasons. Like Lilith said: It helps to create a reflection free zone (RFZ) around your mix position. That shape turns out to have the best geometry for accomplishing that task, but you need to get the angles, ratios, key dimensions, and geometry right, or it won't work well at all. That shape also has other benefits that I won't get into here, since I might end up writing a novel-length response... (not that anyone would ever accuse me of doing such a thing!!! :) ). So you need to flip your CR's around, such that the narrow end is at the front, facing the LR's, and you need to get the angles, dimensions, ratios, geometry, etc. right too. And like Lilith said, your CR's also needs to be symmetrical,. If they are not symmetrical then you will never get an accurate stereo image in them, and your mixes will not translate well.

Some more information on this topic and any other suggestions would be extremely helpful.

Two big suggestions: Buy Rod's book (search the forum for "Rod's book" for details), and buy the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest. Once you have read and fully understood both of those, you'll be well on your way to being able to design and build your studio correctly, and to educate your architectural firm on the remaining zillion and twenty one issues that are so extremely important to studios but make no difference whatsoever to a house, shop, office or apartment.

I'm sure the guys will give you a novel length answer on this

You don't mean ME by any chance do you Lilith? Surely not???? I'm always so brief and succinct and to-the point in my answers! :) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi Marc. Welcome. Very important point: Does this firm have lots of experience designing successfull sound studios? Can they take you around to meet several of their satisfied studio customers, so you can see and HEAR the results for yourself?

Easy answer for that one: Budget. We'll actually be doing quite a bit of the build out ourselves. However I'm getting an architect involved to help with submitting the plans to the board in order to get the zoning variance we need. Should have been clearer about that, sorry. The control rooms are intended to be symmetrical (was just a quick sketch). However I'll be happy to say that I've been working in greatly non-symmetrical non-acoustically designed control rooms for a decade and have been more than happy with the results. I'd like to get a room that's a bit easier to work with, however I'm working within these space constraints. Looking at the design I haven't been able to figure out any easy way to flip the control rooms around. Hence why they're oriented the way they are. I also should have made clear that this is not a strictly commercial studio. It is mostly for mine and my partners use. Occasionally other engineers will work in our spaces but that's certainly not the focus. Thanks everyone for your help! -marc alan

However I'm getting an architect involved to help with submitting the plans to the board in order to get the zoning variance we need.

OK, that makes more sense now! But don't allow them to fool around with the layout, dimensions, geometry or anything else acoustically related. As long as all they do is draw up plans, file them, and get your permits.

I've been working in greatly non-symmetrical non-acoustically designed control rooms for a decade and have been more than happy with the results.

That's strange, because without symmetry in a control room you CANNOT get an accurate soundstage and stereo image. Without clean, balanced acoustics with close to flat response, and a good RFZ around the mix position, you have no idea how the music REALLY sounds. Without that, your mixes simply will not translate well. I could never be happy in a room like that. I could get my mixes sounding great in a room like that, for sure, but they would sound lousy anywhere else... You can't mix successfully in a room that does not tell the truth.

however I'm working within these space constraints.

That's a rather large space that you have there! The constraints are only imposed by your design. A lot of people on this forum would kill to have that much space available for theirs studios!

Looking at the design I haven't been able to figure out any easy way to flip the control rooms around. Hence why they're oriented the way they are.

Well, until you do figure that out, your chances of producing a usable studio that works, are pretty low. You can't beat the laws of physics by just hoping that they'll go away and maybe not apply to your space. They still will, just like for any other space. There are very, very good reasons for the shapes, ratios, geometry, dimensions and layout of studios, and they are all related to the laws of physics. You can't fight that. If you want a studio that works, then you have to design in accordance with the laws that the universe has imposed on you. If not, then you'll have to continue being happy with a mediocre, non-symmetrical, unbalanced, non-acoustical, non-flat response room where mixing is a nightmare and the results don't translate.

I also should have made clear that this is not a strictly commercial studio. It is mostly for mine and my partners use.

Maybe this comment is out of place, but it seems like an awful lot of money for building a pair of studios just to play around in! You are looking at many MANY tens of thousands of dollars in building that place, which has not one but TWO entire studios in it, just to fool around a bit, and with no commercial intent in mind? And you aren't even concerned about making it into an acoustically usable space? Maybe it's just me, but if I was going to blow a hundred grand or so on a studio like that, I think I'd at least get the best design possible for it, and try to recover at least some of that investment by renting out one studio while I play around in the other. But that's just my opinion. If you really have that kind of money to spend, and really don't care how it sounds, then who am I to question that?

Once again, misread it seems. I don't mean that we won't be making money there. I just mean the room is mostly for use by in house engineers. Here's a quick adjustment to my control room problem. Thoughts?

Here's a quick adjustment to my control room problem. Thoughts?

That looks a bit better! But I'd still try to not narrow down the rear section of the rooms. Just keep the walls back there parallel, at best, but never getting closer together.

Personally, I would erase it all and start with a new brush........ In a space like this I would probably spread the control rooms out from one another. Then again - I'm looking at a 3d picture that is skewed by it's very nature- a plan view with some dimensions would be much better to make an assessment from. All your architect needs to do is create the space the rooms sit within - you would be much better off having a studio designer design the studios - there's an awful lot to this - and (as Stuart noted above) it's a shame to be investing the kind of money you are from a construction point of view without making certain that the plans are primo - and your architect is not giving any of this work away for free....... a shame to pay for design that you aren't even planing on really using......... and at the speed you seem to want to move this at - there is no way you yourself will learn all of the design priorities yourself in order to guide it along. If you really need a couple of sketches for the purpose of zoning - then what youhave already should be fine - and Zoning does not care about the final layout - just the concept behind the use of the property - as long as you do 'n change the footprint of the building - the work within can change without any problems with them. So print your prints and file them at zoning..... and then start figuring out how you are really going to do it - just not with an architect......... Where in New York are you working in studios with control rooms that are assymetrical - that is really quite strange.... vocal booths - tracking rooms, etc. - assemytry is what you want and expect - but control rooms? Symmetry is the only way to develope proper stereo imaging........... Very strange........ Rod

Did you see my question about post/pilers. Are there any? Also where is the front door and emergency door? I can't quite see.

Just keep the walls back there parallel, at best, but never getting closer together.

Never? Holy mackeral Soundman2020, ya betta give Wes Lachot a call and alert him about your hypothisis right away!!! They're almost done building TWO of them this way. I'm sure they'll tear em down and rebuild em on your word, since its soooooooooooooo scientific and all. not. :roll:

cadesignr wrote:

Just keep the walls back there parallel, at best, but never getting closer together.

Never? Holy mackeral Soundman2020, ya betta give Wes Lachot a call and alert him about your hypothisis right away!!! They're almost done building TWO of them this way. I'm sure they'll tear em down and rebuild em on your word, since its soooooooooooooo scientific and all.

Yeah, that's how I've been feeling about this thread in general. However it has done one very good thing for me: I decided to break down and get in contact with some professional studio designers (Wes included). It's looking like the cost break isn't too much further than what I was hoping to spend, and it'll certainly save me money in the long run. I'll let you guys know as things come along. Still waiting to hear back on my offer on the building... -marc alan

Hey Marc! Glad you're asking questions... I've got similar ones... but not as near as much space..WOW, that is amazing.. especially for NYC.

I don't have it yet! Holding my breath as we speak.

Marc, Wes is a good friend of mine - as well as one of the premier designers in the US - you could never go wrong with him designing your studio. Rod

Soundman, the comment about the back 1/2 of the control room and keeping the walls at least parallel - but never closing, where des that come from? Although given enough space I will would continue to open up - I have also designed the other way - but if you go into Chapter 10 - figure 10.5 has the back 1/2 closing up - actually at an even sharper angle than I see here - and that control room will work just fine.... I place much more importance on symmetry....... Rod

Maybe the comment should have been- that the back walls width shouldn't be less than the front walls? Which is still in line with Wes's two control room designs.

Wes is a good friend of mine - as well as one of the premier designers in the US

Rod, maybe you could ask him HOW he applies this "room sizing" methodology(module grids) to all the rooms he designs that are NOT rectangles, such as shown above. http://www.weslachot.com/new/articles_scales.html BTW, he references an "overhanging roof line" in the article as a sort of theoretical illustration of his lecture. When viewing many of his designs, I see many that incorporate the use of a very deep...what do YOU call them? Soffits...shelf...lowered ceilings? No matter, unless I'm missing something, these would do EXACTLY what he is describing. I wonder if he does that ACOUSTICALLY on purpose, or what? And if so, it must add a "resonance" within that area. So what is he trying to do to the acoustics of the room with these? Not only that Rod, I'm real curious how he determines the LP to a room given a sequence of design parameters that must be injected PRIOR to determining this point, such as soffits and their overall geometry in relation to the monitors, window width, monitor size, console size etc., all of which have an influence on the equilateral triangle angle, depth from monitors(ie..38% starting point), height and vertical angle of monitor sonic center, and the vertical FOCAL point, of the monitoring equilateral triangle. Especially in rooms like Manifold. It would seem to me this is one of the most profound aspects that either must be established PRIOR to configuring a room geometry, or it would appear, that should that not be the case, then one is putting the cart before the horse, no? And I'm sorry for interjecting this into your thread Marc, but it seems to be of primary importance in relationship to the point of your thread...unless I'm missing something.

BTW, he references an "overhanging roof line" in the article as a sort of theoretical illustration of his lecture. When viewing many of his designs, I see many that incorporate the use of a very deep...what do YOU call them? Soffits...shelf...lowered ceilings? No matter, unless I'm missing something, these would do EXACTLY what he is describing. I wonder if he does that ACOUSTICALLY on purpose, or what? And if so, it must add a "resonance" within that area. So what is he trying to do to the acoustics of the room with these?

i'd also like to know something about this "overhanging roof". i guess it must be some kind of absorber/diffusor/anything. i cant imagine its a solid build. why should he add a resonance? i like his designs and guess nothing is there because it looks nice/cool/whatever. i can't find the post or text but wes' focus on designing ctrl rooms is not only the producer/engineer the client is also very important. i think it was this thread on gearslutz...(great infos btw) anyway. hmm. well. nothing new to tell. erm. just an elaborately form to say "bump" :) carsten

i'd also like to know something about this "overhanging roof".

Well, I feel bad hijacking this thread :oops: But I already asked Rod the question and I believe its relevant to Marcs thread. If not, I apologize. But here is what I'm refering to. The "soffit" is above the couch. :mrgreen: fitZ

Don't worry about my initial question, I'm interested to see where this is going! I'm headed down to Carolina to meet up with Wes this weekend anyway, so I may be taking the hard part out of my own hands.

I'm headed down to Carolina to meet up with Wes this weekend

:shock: Man do I envy you! :mrgreen: Good luck with the design. Like Allstate...you'll be in good hands!! fitZ

Marc Alan Goodman wrote:

Don't worry about my initial question, I'm interested to see where this is going! I'm headed down to Carolina to meet up with Wes this weekend anyway, so I may be taking the hard part out of my own hands.

Did you get the building then? I'm guessing so, Congrats!! Definitely a trip to NYC now...

Actually I'm still waiting to hear back, but I want to have everything lined up and ready to go when I hear. Meeting with Wes was amazing. Both he and Lisa are fantastic people, and I love his working mentality. Plus the room at Charleston Sound is fantastic. I didn't know how I felt about the whole RFZ / mains thing (I've always been a nearfield kinda guy) until I checked that place out and saw how well it could work in the right room. I'll keep you updated! -marc alan