Hello to all here.
I am posting this with the acceptance that a lot of what I need to research will be in this forum somewhere and I am currently spending a lot of time trying to find posts that might fall directly in line with my project.
What I am looking for is a kick in the right direction (ie. perhaps those that spend a lot of time here have seen similar threads – if so, just say so and I will search further, or alternately, a basic "head's up" that what I am facing may be either extremely problematic and expensive, or perhaps not quite as scary and it is with this indecisiveness that I am asking for a few minutes of a seasoned professional's time.
I am going to cut straight to the chase to avoid waffling too much, but immediately after this first post, I will answer it with a second and more complete explanatory description for the sake of answering any of the "why's and what for's" etc.
Is it possible/feasible to construct a “room within a room” including the ceiling (which is my biggest concern) inside an existing household room WITHOUT flanking (or anchoring to, or damaging) any of the existing structure ?
Now my reasons for this are covered in my second post if required, but my plan here would be to build the wall frames on top of a cushion of rubber (thereby protecting the floor as such) and laying a new floor inside the frame borders and resting on the existing floor via rubber pucks (more for protection than floating isolation).
This should allow me to skin and caulk the inner wall structure and floor seams.
So this leaves the ceiling (covering an area of 4.50m x 3.00m). --- bearing in mind that the walls will be going up to within a couple of inches from the existing walls, but not touching them in any way (void stuffed with insulation) and also a couple of inches from the existing household ceiling, also without touching the ceiling boards in any way.
So can I run the joists for the inner/new ceiling across the top of the framed walls or into hanging type brackets fixed to the upright/sides of the wall frames --- and is this entire structure capable of being freestanding within the existing room and without these joists being anchored to any existing part of the room?
I am sure that from an engineering point of view, it would be better to be anchored in some way, but is the structure itself not going to pull itself together as a rigid and solid room?
I would be inclined to assume that the biggest problem here is supporting the ceiling which will probably be 2 x layers of plasterboard, (existing ceiling height is approximately 2.40m if that is of any consequence as the joists plus double layered ceiling boards would be pretty much resting on top of (or be hung in brackets connected to the sides of) the “freestanding” wall frames if my assumptions are correct.
Would I be correct in stating that although the existing ceiling is at the mercy of its’ current (unknown) construction elements, erecting a freestanding structure inside the room will pretty much create a 2 x leaf structure?
Furthermore, is it in any way possible (even with extremely complex planning and detail) to construct this inner room in such a way that it could be modular to the point of being able to deconstruct it, move it to another premises and then reconstruct it at a new premises? I do realise that this last expectation is bound by the limitations of caulking, paint and any finishes etc, but is this completely out of the question?
In terms of expectation and requirements, I have quite a lot of gear to fit into the room and as a singer/songwriter/producer, I do play drums (V-Drums), bass, keyboards and a bit of guitar, so it would be fair to say that the loudest parts of my requirements would be in composition, playback and mixing (Mackie HR-824) --- with the vast majority of tracking being vocals and it would be really nice if my family was not exposed to my untreated yells and power chorus retakes unnecessarily!!
Many thanks to anyone who has the time to read all of this and help me out here. If my project is achievable, then I will most certainly post a new thread with step by step photo’s etc as there may be many more like myself as will be explained in my next post to this thread with all the explanations and a few sketches etc.
Steve
Freestanding shell inside an existing room in a rented house
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13714.
OK, so firstly, the rooms I am looking at are part of a house we are considering renting, as we cannot afford to buy and renting a separate studio premises will also push our family monthly costs way beyond affordability, so I am forced to look at a compromised route of doing the best I can within rented house spaces.
BUT, in this case I do have the landlord’s permission to modify at least one of my two optional rooms to a certain degree, which is what got me thinking about the possibility of creating a removable shell inside a room in a rented house that could hopefully be taken apart (I know this will not be quick and easy) to leave the original room in a close enough condition to what it was for the sake of standard lease agreements etc.
I have looked at options like the Vocal Booth pre-constructed rooms etc, but to get a room of a similar size to what I need is around £15 000 and if I had that kind of money I would be looking at pushing through for a deposit on my own house in which I could construct a permanent solution.
Budget will be available on a monthly basis as opposed to an upfront figure, and is only really capped by what could be deemed to be a waste of money on a property that is not my own (hence my earlier pondering about being able to take it all apart and use as much as possible elsewhere).
High costs for unavoidable items, such as doors, ventilation, door seals etc are all ultimately going to come into play regardless of any project, so my main concern around budget is whether or not I am faced with anything out of the ordinary here, or not - if that makes sense?
Now my perhaps rather dreamy concepts here are aimed at the probability that there are a lot of folk in rented places that may benefit from the concept of building a freestanding shell inside an existing room which could (in a perfect world) be dismantled and moved to a new rental if need be as opposed to crowbars and skipping the lot!!
For a more detailed description, we are about to rent a house with a 6.45m x 3.00m room on one side of the house and an attached garage on the opposite side of the house, measuring approximately 3.80m x 3.25m - both of these have been earmarked by myself and the wife (God bless her) for my desires.
Both of these optional rooms have a common problem, but one of them to a worse degree.
The 6.45m x 3.00m room is an internal room on the one end of the house and with the house being detached and on a corner plot, this room is on the street corner side of the house, so the nearest neighbour here is across the road as such. It is all brick, with a laminated wood floor and being on the ground floor of a double-storey, has a standard ceiling, but I have not had a chance to check out any information pertaining to the existing ceiling construction.
As this room is basically one of two lounges (reception rooms) in the house, the main problem with it is that it is also the access point to a large conservatory, so I would need to cordon off a portion of this room (to create a 4.50m x 3.00m space). I would hope to create this “inner room” right up against the one end of the room and then completely seal off this structure, once complete, with a dry-walled partition which will be the visible face/wall when entering the original room from the rest of the house and if my assumptions are correct, this would also act as the 2nd outer leaf for this side of the structure. Here is a very basic sketch done in MS-Paint.
The garage, on the other hand, which is accessed via a door off the kitchen, is brick on the side attached to the house, but with the remaining 3 walls being built of breezeblock and then the biggest flaw of all (so far), being a corrugated plastic roof - the type used for carports, or enclosing patios and entertainment areas etc, which will obviously require the insertion of a reasonable ceiling with insulation right up against it, after which I would be face with the same restrictions as the previous internal room option, where construction would need to take place on the inside of an existing shell.
The landlord is OK with me modifying the garage to a certain degree, but as it is not my house, it would be practically impossible to rebuild any of the blueprint structure and it is a natural concern that the higher the cost of any of this project, the more I stand to lose through this house being a rental.
Furthermore, the breeze-block walls of the garage may not be structurally sound enough to assume I could fix any studs wall structure to it – I say this because the history and build quality of these walls would be difficult to prove – the mere fact that they are breeze block with a corrugated plastic roof leads me to believe that they have been put up as a basic garage and not necessarily an original feature if you know what I mean.
The other problem with the garage is that it is too small for me to use by itself, as I need space in my control room to house (footprint-wise ... ie. some of these are 16U, some are 12U and some are 32U) - 5 x outboard racks, 1 x patchbay rack, 1 x recorder rack, 2 x synth/sampler racks and a 2 metre wide Soundtracs console.
For my purposes, I am quite happy to track vocals in the control room and also to set up the V-Drums in there when needed, so a proper Live room / Control is not critical, but I would be tempted to do the inside room as a single all-in-one room at first and then apply the same concept to the garage and create a “live-room” in there at some point, but this would end up with double costs and double the amount of work etc, although it does give me a very useful environment with 2 seperate rooms etc (a bit of a luxury, really) ... but if the task lying ahead of me were attainable, then I would probably push for this option as space is always useful, rather tha cramming everything into a single room.
Here is a rough MS-Paint sketch of the basic layout of the existing garage with no detail added for the studio as the requirement is basically to utilise as mush of the existing floorspace as possible.
If we can find a way to place our kitchen white goods elsewhere in the house, then it may well be a lot easier to put my gear into the room INSIDE the house and basically use it there compromising volumes until I could gut the ENTIRE garage space and build this room within a room idea in the garage instead and end up with a 5.00m x 3.00 space which is pretty useful, plus would give me the peace of mind in knowing that I can pretty much do anything in the garage as it is currently unfinished in any way, so I don't stand to ruin anything by doing any of the work.
OK, I have now waffled enough and I hope that I have given as much info as is required to get a basic idea across to you guys --- all I am looking for here initially is the thumbs up that it is a pretty standard build according to some other great threads on here (the vocal booth thread, "from shed to studio" etc etc) --- or if I will not be able to achieve the objective without a more major outlay for example.
Many thanks for any help offered.
Steve
My (yet to be finished) studio is a completely free standing structure.
Ceiling rests on top plate, wall corners against walls. Haven't even needed a sway brace or overhead hanger.
However I have 1 dyna bolt (concrete bolt) for every 3m of wall.
Dyna bolts aren't the easiest things to remove and I doubt you would pass building regulations without something holding it down. Either bolt or concrete nails.
Do some of your own research on that.
your ceiling will be limited to a certain span depending on Kg/sq m.
There are a lot of smart span products on the markert now that work much better than 8x4 or 10x4 timber.
Yep, although I am not an experienced builder or anything, my common sense tells me that the ceiling is the bigger worry for me here.
Been thinking about this non-stop and as a failsafe approach, perhaps I could rest the joists on top of the frame/walls as well as fitting a pair of those hanger/brackets per joist for peace of minds sake.
I guess I need to be looking at actual spanning measurements to get an idea of overall weight and support requirements for a ceiling like this, as that is probably the actual pitfall in terms of the techincal spec to get right.
At that size room I don't think you will need it.
But head down to the timber yard and get the specs
Hi Steve! Welcome! Nice to see a newcomer who actually HAS read the stickies, and done what they say! So an extra good welcome for ya!
Question by question:
Yes. Assuming that the outer leaf is only a single leaf. If it's a double leaf already, then I got some good news, and not-so-good news, and some bad news. The good news is that it still can be done, the not-so-good news is that it would be much better to attack that outer leaf and make it into a single leaf before proceeding, the bad news is that if you have no choice it still can be done, but things start getting complex. And expensive.Is it possible/feasible to construct a “room within a room” including the ceiling (which is my biggest concern) inside an existing household room WITHOUT flanking (or anchoring to, or damaging) any of the existing structure ?
You might want to be careful about that: Even though your intention isn't to float it, what you are doing actually is floating it! You might want to read this thread on floating floors: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173frame borders and resting on the existing floor via rubber pucks (more for protection than floating isolation).
Yes. You might need to brace it internally while you are building it, but if you think about it, that's basically the way a house is built anyway: framed walls, joists across the top, nothing else to hold it up except itself. Its the same basic principle. Not too sure about the "freestanding" part, though: it needs to be attached firmly to the existing floor somehow. I doubt that code would allow you to build something like that without it being attached to a foundation, directly or indirectly.So can I run the joists for the inner/new ceiling across the top of the framed walls or into hanging type brackets fixed to the upright/sides of the wall frames --- and is this entire structure capable of being freestanding within the existing room and without these joists being anchored to any existing part of the room?
You should really contract a structural engineer or contractor who knows about ceilings, to tell you how to do that part. You need to dimension the joists hefty enough to span those distances while supporting the weight of the drywall, insulation, any electrical or HVAC that might be up there, etc. You can't just slap up a couple of 2x4's and hope for the best.... CRUNCH!!!I would be inclined to assume that the biggest problem here is supporting the ceiling which will probably be 2 x layers of plasterboard,
It might be 2-leaf, it might be 3, or it might be more. It all depends on "knowing" about the "unknown". You need to find out how it is built already.Would I be correct in stating that although the existing ceiling is at the mercy of its’ current (unknown) construction elements, erecting a freestanding structure inside the room will pretty much create a 2 x leaf structure?
Possible? I guess it is, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be. Those walls / ceiling will be extremely heavy and hard to move. And if you do manage to move them, then you run the risk of damaging your seals, drywall cracking, etc. And you'd have to build it in sections small enough to fit through the door. Dunno.. Might be tough. So short answer? "Maybe, but...."Furthermore, is it in any way possible (even with extremely complex planning and detail) to construct this inner room in such a way that it could be modular to the point of being able to deconstruct it, move it to another premises and then reconstruct it at a new premises?
Acoustic or electronic? If that's acoustic, then you are looking at levels up around 115 dB. That's a lot. how quiet do you need to be on the outside of your room? That's the big question here. Stone deaf granddad two floors up and at the other end of the house? No problem. Cranky baby sleeping right next door? That's a bit tougher! Add a couple more layers of drywall, and a bigger air gap, very thick laminate glass in all windows with large air gaps, Rod's double door design, or his "superdoors" everywhere that you need a door, with triple seals, extra mass. Etc. Do you have a rough outline of your existing room, and idea about your layout? One comment: that ceiling is already low. It's going to get a lot lower.... Another comment: Download SketchUp, and do all your design work in there. Much better than Paint! - Stuart -I do play drums (V-Drums),
"to construct this inner room in such a way that it could be modular to the point of being able to deconstruct it, move it to another premises and then reconstruct it at a new premises?"
Cannot be done. Sheetrock, not going to happen.
It will be more difficult, require more effort to develop a knock-down type of isolation that is effective in any way.
As a diy project, it isn't going to happen.
Thank you for all of the answers and advice guys.
We have decided to take the house, so I will be having a crack at it sometime in the new year as we only move in at the end of January 2010.
I may be back on this thread with a few more questions as the thoughts/options come to mind.
I have had another look and considering it is not my own house, I have a new idea in mind to put all of my synthesizers, V-Drums and composition workstation (basically 2 x 12U racks containing the main computer/soundcards/converters/samplers on top of which sits my 88 note controller and 3 more racks with all of my synth modules etc) in the big room in the house.
I would not have to be too concerned over acoustics OR isolation as that entire room would ultimately become an electronic composition/workstation room and remove all of that gear from my All-In-One room type setup that I have currently.
I could then do the garage out "properly" and although it would be a bit small and boxy, I would only have to house my big Soundtracs IL3632 and 5 x outboard racks along with the recorders and patchbay racks in there and use it as a mix room and do any loud tracking in there as well (by compromising slightly and monitoring the takes from the other room in the house --- not optimal, but as this is not a commercial facility, I could work around these compromises).
I could focus more on isolation in here as the room is pretty much raw concrete etc, so no finishes to worry about damaging compared to doing any construction inside the house itself.
Gotcha --- I knew I was out on a limb here.As a diy project, it isn't going to happen.
Thank you for that and the comments on the questions ... appreciate the friendly welcome!So an extra good welcome for ya!
Downloaded and will be trying it out tonight. OK, thanks again to all and see you around here soon. SteveDownload SketchUp, and do all your design work in there. Much better than Paint!
Good luck