Hello!! This is an amazing website. I don't know how to even begin to thank you for the amount of information I just attempted to absorb in an hour or so. I will try and get to the point.
We are building a brand new studio here in Lynchburg, Virginia, in the USA.
I have a picture of our current "blueprint" as far as the layout of the walls. I am sorry that I do not have a 3D drawing of it. I have seen what some of you are capable of with that 3D drawing program and it's really amazing. Learning to properly utilize such a tool will probably take longer than what I have time for.
What I'm going to do is copy/paste directly from the builder's contract as far as the specs of my building. I am looking for "red flags" as to things that will "raise an eyebrow" and cause you to say "Hey . . . now DON'T DO THAT!!!" I have done some homework on this concept and we'll have to see just how little I actually know about this studio-building thing.
The short description is that we're building a recording studio on a poured concrete slab. This studio will have two main rooms, a "live room" and a "control room", along with two smaller isolation booths, a bathroom, and a closet that will contain a hot water heater and the "heat pump" furnace. The whole building will be roughly two stories tall, and will include a "loft" that will be more or less open space over the entirety of the building. The control room and smaller booths will have "regular 8 foot walls". I am planning on installing fairly inexpensive wooden 1"x1" parkay flooring over all floor surfaces, including the loft area.
Here is the builder's contract specs.
A. General construction
1) All construction to be per plan, and to meet all Campbell County building codes.
2) Builder to furnish all required licenses & permits.
3) Footers to be 18” wide and 8” thick with 2 strands continuous .5” rebar
4) The main level floors shall be 4” of concrete with 6 mil vapor barrier, 2” gravel.
5) Exterior walls to be 9’ tall 10” thick poured concrete walls.
6) Exterior walls to be insulated with the most dense fiberglass insulation that will fit inside a 2x4 wall
7) All interior walls to be insulated with the most dense fiberglass insulation that will fit in a 2x6 wall
8) All walls, Save the exterior walls backing to concrete, interior and exterior shall have ½” sound board installed then z channel, then 1/2 ” sheetrock
9) Exterior door shall be 3’ steel insulated door without glass
10) Door between live room and control room shall be 3’ steel insulated door with full glass.
11) Doors to both isolation booths shall be steel insulated doors with full glass.
12) Door to utility closet shall be insulated steel with out glass
13) Door to bathroom shall be uninsulated interior luan door.
14) One 60 gallon electric water heater installed in utility closet with air handler.
15) There shall be a full bath on the main floor placed per plan.
16) One 13 seer heat pump with 3 speed fan installed, sized by HVAC contractor.
17) It shall be wired to code with lights and receptacle placed at the owner’s direction
18) No landscaping included save raking, seeding and strawing the yard.
19) The roof pitch will be 12/12 allowing for a loft and a vaulted ceiling
20) There shall be a loft over the control room that shall be 12’x22’ and will have 5’ knee walls on each side the ceiling shall continue up at a 45 degree angle until reaching a height of 8’ then shall become flat at the top. Allowing a place for duct work to run.
21) The safety railing of the loft overlooking the live room shall be 2x4 and 2x2 construction.
22) There shall be either a spiral staircase installed in the live room to access the loft above the control room.
23) The rafters shall be 2x10 and shall be packed with maximum allowable insulation and shall receive the same sound board, z-channel, sheetrock treatment as the walls.
24) The walls inside may be framed slightly out of square to allow for optimal recording acoustics…. Owner’s choice.
25) No flooring included, no sound absorption treatment included.
B. Exterior
1) One side walk 3.5’ wide shall be constructed that will lead from the driveway to the front stoop. It shall be 4” concrete.
2) Seamless aluminum gutters with downspouts as needed.
3) The concrete walls shall be furred out with 2”x2” strips and shall be covered with vinyl siding to match the existing house.
4) The roof shall be done with 3-tab shingles to match existing house.
2/4 ¬¬_____/______
C. Interior
1) Two new 3x3 windows shall be installed per plan… owner will supply up to two more windows one of which will be installed between the live room and the control room… the other may be installed in the loft.
2) All plumbing fixtures to be Delta (examples seen @ Hugh’s Plumbing)
3) 5’ tub shower combo to be fiberglass “Lasco” brand unit.
D. Allowances
1) 1 color of James T. Davis paint on walls, one color on trim, and one color on ceiling… $300 per color for additional colors.
2) A 4’x4’ pad shall be provided outside front door.
3) Light fixture allowance to be $200
I thank anyone that is willing to read these details and offer their opinon, even if we're WAY off. I hope I have provided enough information for you to get a general feeling for what we are imagining doing.
Thank You!!!
-J
First Post . . . Brand New Studio Build . . .
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13693.
jHon,
you caught me in a good mood and I'm answering........... but - I will caution you - there are rules and regs here - if you choose NOT to follow them - you will NOT be offered all that much help.....
try reading this and follow it's simple instructions:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3231
If you do not - then this will be both my first - and last - response.......
Rod
You asked or stated:
1) All construction to be per plan, and to meet all Campbell County building codes.
Response: no comment
2) Builder to furnish all required licenses & permits.
Response: no comment
3) Footers to be 18” wide and 8” thick with 2 strands continuous .5” rebar
Response: no comment
4) The main level floors shall be 4” of concrete with 6 mil vapor barrier, 2” gravel.
Response: haunches at the floor edges and beneath the inner bearing walls?
5) Exterior walls to be 9’ tall 10” thick poured concrete walls.
Response: Should we asume 12" concrete walls? i is thre any rebar in thos walls ad if yes - where, what size, number of bars?
6) Exterior walls to be insulated with the most dense fiberglass insulation that will fit inside a 2x4 wall
Response: Fluffy fiberglass will give you better isolation for low frequencies (by this I mean normal fiberglass insulation)
7) All interior walls to be insulated with the most dense fiberglass insulation that will fit in a 2x6 wall
Response: (See comment note 6 above)
All walls, Save the exterior walls backing to concrete, interior and exterior shall have ½” sound board installed then z channel, then 1/2 ” Sheetrock
Response: To begin – sound board is useless – beyond that – you have it located in the wrong place, it should be installed after the resilient channel, there is a difference between Z channel and resilient channel – Z channel does NOT isolate, ½” sheetrock is NOT enough mass to isolate effectively.
9) Exterior door shall be 3’ steel insulated door without glass –
Response: TL value around STC 35 – not much use…….
10) Door between live room and control room shall be 3’ steel insulated door with full glass.
Response: – Pretty much useless from an isolation point of view.
11) Doors to both isolation booths shall be steel insulated doors with full glass.
Response: see comments above
12) Door to utility closet shall be insulated steel with out glass
Response: no comment
13) Door to bathroom shall be uninsulated interior luan door.
Response: no comment
14) One 60 gallon electric water heater installed in utility closet with air handler.
Response: A 20 or 30 gallon short boy will suit all your needs – heck a 40 gallon will handle a 3 bedroom home with a bath and laundry……. This would be a tremendous waste of energy for no return. Relocate h.w.h. into loft………
15) There shall be a full bath on the main floor placed per plan.
Response: no comment
16) One 13 seer heat pump with 3 speed fan installed, sized by HVAC contractor.
Response: better spend some time on the HVAC spec – this is wide open – the control room needs are totally different than the needs of the working (tracking) rooms – i.e: control room have very little need for latent cooling – but tremendous need for sensible heat (latent heat is produced by people sweating – and requires de-humidification time – sensible heat is from equipment and requires NO dehumidification)
This spec addresses none of the true needs for studios – INCLUDING what the fresh air supply needs to be, how to handle dehumidification/humidification, equipment sizing, sizing or other means of determining the movement of air in order to provide a quiet system that cannot be picked up by the microphones, etc, etc, etc.
17) It shall be wired to code with lights and receptacle placed at the owner’s direction
Response: no good – what size is the service the builder is providing – how is he making sure there will be no ground loops – how is the gear and lighting being wired into the system………. Are the lighting/HVAC and gear circuits on different legs of the system……… is he providing an isolated ground system for the gear in the control room – for the gear in the main and iso booths………. How is he handling wall penetrations…… what is he providing for lighting……. Any special lighting provided for mood……… are any of the lights dimmable….. if yes- what is the dimming system and how is he protecting against RF/EF being picked up by mics – gear – single coil guitar pickups (Fender Mustangs for example) . Etc., etc,.
18) No landscaping included save raking, seeding and strawing the yard.
Response: no comment
19) The roof pitch will be 12/12 allowing for a loft and a vaulted ceiling
Response: no comment
20) There shall be a loft over the control room that shall be 12’x22’ and will have 5’ knee walls on each side the ceiling shall continue up at a 45 degree angle until reaching a height of 8’ then shall become flat at the top. Allowing a place for duct work to run.
Response: no comment
21) The safety railing of the loft overlooking the live room shall be 2x4 and 2x2 construction.
Response: again - please reconsider........... very difficult to isolate to the outside world
22) There shall be either a spiral staircase installed in the live room to access the loft above the control room.
Response: relocate stair to the (now empty) water heater room……. This stair makes isolation not only to the loft impossible – but to the outside world even that much more difficult.
NOT TO MENTION THAT IT TAKES UP QUITE A BIT OF FLOOR SPACE IN AN ALREADY SMALL LIVE ROOM....
23) The rafters shall be 2x10 and shall be packed with maximum allowable insulation and shall receive the same sound board, z-channel, sheetrock treatment as the walls.
Response: Totally useless this = first off the bays of the roof MUST breath – which means continuous vapor barrier and ridge vent, along with proper vent directly beneath the roof sheathing creating a space for free movement of air along the bottom of the roof sheathing.......... next – the bottom of the rafters along with the floor joist become the direct link to the outside world – and nothing you do is going to save you from that (the joist will HAVE to tie into the bottoms of the rafters to lock them in and remove the outward thrust on the concrete wall (which you do not require to have rebar installed – and which would require special structural engineering to take the imposed load.
Regardless of this – the KNEE WALLS will also be a flanking source to the outside world………
Lots of issues with this approach……… the isolation should be located at the ceiling of the rooms below – and that should be structurally isolated from the loft above.
24) The walls inside may be framed slightly out of square to allow for optimal recording acoustics…. Owner’s choice.
Response: this is really bad at it’s best……… these decisions have to be made before the work ever begins – which means you need plans that indicate what is going to be built………. Not some fluffy undefined idea about the “owner’s choice”………
25) No flooring included, no sound absorption treatment included.
Response: no comment
I really have no comments about the remainder of your ideas - as they do not really efect the studio itself from an isolation of acoustic point of view.
Based on what I have read- I would recommend that either you go to your local library and borrow some books about the subject - or go to a book store and buy some - and then study them.......... one of the problems with trying to learn about acoustics here is that there is so much info spread around in so many little places - and so very much info being bandied back and forth within each thread - that it is next to impossible to do it by reading the existing threads.
Don't get me wrong - once you begin to get a little light glimmering in the far entrance of the tunnel (and know enough to be pretty sure it is not the lights of an oncomming train - you will be well suited to as more structured questions - and als o be able to truly understand the answers.
But until then - you need something more compact and concise.....
Hi Jhon, and welcome! (Is that really how your name is spelled?)
I see several red flags in there. The ones that came to mind first are:
The normal recommendation here is for insulation density to be around 48 kg/m3 (about 3 lb/ft3). If you go much less than that and it isn't very effective acoustically. And if you go much more than that, then you are just paying more money for little extra benefit. And if you go with extremely dense stuff, then you run the risk of flanking. So you might want to change that to specify a density of 48 kg/m3, give or take a bit. It doesn't have to be fiberglass, either: Mineral wool is also good. Either will do just fine. Also, even though the studs might be 2x4 or 2x6, the actual depth of the air gap (cavity) will be larger: The air gap should be at least 4", and much more if you can afford the space. Also, some studies show that completely filling the cavity (leaf to leaf, and floor to ceiling) has a positive effect on isolation (improves it), as long as you don't cram it in too tight. So you might want to specify that that the entire wall cavity should be filled with insulation, not just the space between the studs, as for a normal wall.6) Exterior walls to be insulated with the most dense fiberglass insulation that will fit inside a 2x4 wall 7) All interior walls to be insulated with the most dense fiberglass insulation that will fit in a 2x6 wall
Six issue right there! #1) 1/2" isn't very much. Go for 5/8. It does several good things for you acoustically. #2) Soundboard? well, O guess that's OK, but ordinary common drywall is just as good (if not better), and much cheaper. Mass is mass. Get the cheapest mass you can. ( Sound waves don't care how much you paid for it. ) #3) "z-channel" is not what you want. Normal z-channel does not decouple, so it is useless. "Resilient Channel" (RC) is what you would want. Only proper RC decouples acoustically. Hat channel does not, ordinary z-channel does not. And you probably don't even need any channel it at all, if you build the wall right! Because... #4) A layer of 1/2" drywall (or soundboard) with a thin air gap and then another layer of 1/2" drywall is a REALLY BAD idea! The air gap, or cavity, will only be the same depth as the Z-channel, which is nowhere near enough! That thin cavity and thin drywall will cause the wall to have a rather high resonant frequency, probably way up there where you don't want it, in the very audible range. It also wont isolate very well. You need more mass, a much larger gap (at least 4 inches), and insulation in the cavity. #5) That's a three leaf wall, if I understand the description correctly: concrete wall -- air gap -- soundboard -- air gap -- drywall. Three leaf is a BAD idea. It should only be 2 leaves. #6) Even that small air gap should have been filled with isolation. (Of course, you won't actually have that in the end (I hope), but they way it was specified should have had insulation in the cavity.) The above makes me suspect that your builder doesn't understand acoustics, nor what is involved in building a studio. He's in for a steep learning curve! And you will need to be supervising a great deal. There are may things that he needs to "un-learn", and many precautions he has to take, to avoid trashing your isolation and acoustics.8) All walls, Save the exterior walls backing to concrete, interior and exterior shall have ½” sound board installed then z channel, then 1/2 ” sheetrock
For a studio, all doors should be sold core wood, very thick, very massive, with heavy duty hinges, door closers, etc. If you want a steel door, then get a proper acoustic steel door. And be prepared to pay big bucks for it! Otherwise get wood. All doors need multiple seals around them, too. At least two seals per door, preferably three.9) Exterior door shall be 3’ steel insulated door without glass
Glass in the door? It can be done, but you need to specify thick laminate glass, not just any old glass. And you need to specify how it is to be mounted, sealed, etc. And you need to calculate the mass density of the door, glass and wall to work together as one. They all need to be roughly the same.10) Door between live room and control room shall be 3’ steel insulated door with full glass.
You need to specify the separation of circuits, the isolation transformer (if permitted by code) and most important of all the grounding (earthing). It must have star grounding, and very good (low resistance) grounding. Very important. Also stuff like specifying how much power you need, where you want it, distribution panels, etc.17) It shall be wired to code with lights and receptacle placed at the owner’s direction
Is 2x10 enough? Did you get a structural engineer to check the plans, spans, loads, and stuff. I guess you did, but it does no harm to check.... There will be an awful lot of mass up there, hanging from those joists: thy need to be able to support the load.23) The rafters shall be 2x10 and shall be packed with maximum allowable insulation and shall receive the same sound board, z-channel, sheetrock treatment as the walls.
What does "slightly" mean? The spec doesn't mention the angles, nor that the framing is two separate decoupled frames, nor that that the inner-leaf walls and ceiling can not, under any circumstances, touch the outer-leaf walls/ceiling. I'd suggest that you make that far more specific, such as specifying a minimum splay of 6 degrees on walls, and minimum angle of 12 degrees on the ceiling, etc. In fact, I'd suggest that you need actual PLANS in mind before specifying any of this.24) The walls inside may be framed slightly out of square to allow for optimal recording acoustics…. Owner’s choice.
A single window between CR and LR isn't much, if you plan to record in there! In order to isolate, that window needs to be two separate panes, each one being thick laminate glass, placed with at least 8 inches of air gap between them, correctly mounted, sealed, etc. Installing studio windows is a lot harder than installing normal house windows, if you want them to isolate correctly. Attention to detail is very important here. Even simple things, like cleaning before installing, because once they are installed, you cannot EVER clean the other side! I didn't seen any provision for HVAC in those specs, except for this: "16) One 13 seer heat pump with 3 speed fan installed, sized by HVAC contractor." that isn't much to go on! HVAC is a large part of the entire build, and requires careful layout of the ducts, silencers, etc., which probably needs to be coordinated with the builder. Anyway, that's the stuff I noticed at a first quick reading. Maybe others can comment too. - Stuart - (Edited for spelling and other errors)1) Two new 3x3 windows shall be installed per plan… owner will supply up to two more windows one of which will be installed between the live room and the control room… the other may be installed in the loft.
Damn! Rod beat me to it!
Listen to him, not to me (unless we say the same thing, then you can listen to me... :) )
- Stuart -
Rod! I do appreciate your comments, and will now read them all again a few times. I just got started and I'm taking a beating already.
I thought I'd read the "Please Read Before Posting" thread but apparently not well enough. I will study that as well and return with additional questions, assuming that they are permitted.
-J
Jhon, I think Rod is being way too modest here. What I'd suggest is that you not only do what he said, but more specifically that you also buy and read HIS book, which is very highly regarded on this forum. It is called "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. You can find it on Amazon. That's the single best investment you can possibly make in your entire studio. I learned a huge amount from it, and it has saved me from making some major blunders and wasting tons of money. It has also forced me to stop, think, back-peddle, and learn as much as I possibly can before I start building. If you buy no other book, get that one. And if you buy one other book, get "Master Handbook of Acoustics", by F. Alton Everest. Between those two you'll have a very solid basis for building your studio. Looking at your layout, there are many ways you can improve that greatly, and those two books will teach you what, how, where, and why. - Stuart -I would recommend that either you go to your local library and borrow some books about the subject - or go to a book store and buy some - and then study them
I just bought Rod's book . . . with "expedited shipping" (as this now feels like a dire emergency) and will now get back to feeling the overall "smackdown" feeling of realizing that I just stepped into an arena with which, even after ten years of recording, I know next to nothing about.
I will attempt to formulate some questions . . . allthough my first one is really . . . "Should I just forget about this?"
And by the way Soundman2020, I do appreciate your attention to my questions. Rod is obviously a genius at this type of thing and left me feeling like I was a complete idiot and had no business doing this at ALL. I will recover though, and be better for it. My builder friend and I have never done this before, so not being aware of some of the terms Rod mentioned will hopefully be rectified shortly.
Thanks to all of you so far . . . I will get up to speed. We were supposed to start on Monday.
-J
Absolutely not! Whatever you do, don't give up. What you want to actually CAN be done, and the living proof of that is all over this forum. Many, many threads are testimony that it can be done. Many folks here have done exactly what you are planning to do, and they have done it successfully, on all kinds of budgets, and in numerous places around the world. If they can do it, so can you."Should I just forget about this?"
Not at all! What he said makes perfect sense, and I bet it won't take you long (once you have his book) to figure it all out. The terminology sounds like Greek at first, but it really isn't that hard, once you start reading. That's why Rod wrote the book! So folks like you and me, who in reality "have no business doing this stuff", can actually learn from guys like him, who DO know what they are doing, and then we can end up having "some business" doing this. I don't think Rod's intention was to make you fell like an idiot at all: He's not like that, from what I've seen. On the contrary, to me it looks like his intention was to help you get started, save you money, and give you stacks of priceless advice. You are one lucky fellow to get him commenting so extensively on your plans. I mean that seriously. He's a highly respected designer / builder / writer, people pay him very good money to design and build their places, and you just got a whole bunch of his advice for free! Think about that...and left me feeling like I was a complete idiot and had no business doing this at ALL.
From they way you phrased that, I guess that Monday is no longer the planned starting date? :) Please do stick around, and please do carry on posting, documenting your plans and your eventual build, asking questions, reading, learning, etc. There are many folks here who can comment on what you are planning, suggest changes, fixes, improvements, explain concepts, advise, etc. This is a great community, once you figure out the people a bit. You'll find that many people here post in short, sometimes cryptic ways that can easily be mistake for "a smack-down", but in reality it's just part of the culture here. It's just shorthand, trying to help you. Getting comments on your thread is a GOOD sign, even if the comments sound negative: it means people ARE interested in helping you, and they've spotted a pitfall that you are about to dive into. If someone says "Why are you doing it that way?" or even "That's a dumb way to do it!", then it 's NOT meant as an insult, but rather as helping you to AVOID doing the dumb thing. I'd much rather hear Rod or John or Andre or various others tell me in advance "That's really stupid, Stuart! That won't work!" a few minutes BEFORE I pick up the first hammer, rather than just after I put down the final paintbrush.... So ignore the style, and just read the substance. Don't take the comments to heart: they are there to help, not embarrass. Think of it this way: You might not realize it, but Rod just did you a huge favor, and saved you many thousands of dollars! If you would have started on Monday and built it the way you had in mind, it would never have worked as a studio. You would have wasted every single cent you spent. But thanks to Rod's comments, you now have a very clear path to follow, you know what you were about to do wrong, and how to fix it, so the money you do spend on building your studio will now be wisely spent, not wasted. So don't be discouraged by comments on your thread! But most importantly, you actually can do what you want to do, so don't give up before you even try! - Stuart -We were supposed to start on Monday.
Stuart,
You should be given an award for your extensive, enthusiastic and driven help (meant as a complement).
You compared yourself with a parrot. :mrgreen: In that case it's a price-winning parrot.
Wow! Thank you for the kind words, Eric. Coming form someone like you, that sure is praise from high places. :oops:
You made my day! :yahoo:
- Stuart -
Thank you guys. I have spoken with my builder and we are about to rethink this concept a bit.
I want to make a few statements that I neglected to mention before, that further explain our original intentions and what we have to work with, etc.
There are some general questions that affect our overall concept, and I would like to ask those questions, based upon information already given in this thread.
1. I will go to Radio Shack and get a sound level meter ASAP. I could say "I wanna record guitars and amps, but not too loud" but that is absolutely worthless information-wise, so I will adjust my commentary from here on, being very technically specific. New world for me.
2. Almost every bit of my previous recording experience has taken place in my two room basment studio, completely dead space by way of Auralex and more Auralex. "Dead" space has been fairly easy to manage but it has no life and has really become very boring.
3. The original incarnation of this studio concept was budgeted to cost a little over $47,000. I feel like we should be able to create something that will be fairly respectable and suit my needs with that kind of budget.
4. I was enjoying having a "blueprint" of sorts to ponder and brainstorm about, but we are certainly not tied to that format. We have not even begun digging in the dirt yet, so anything is possible. It is that freedom that makes this all seem so intimidating.
4. MY GOAL for this project? I am seeking to build a (relatively) small recording studio that is as professional as possible with the budget that we have to work with. My recording projects are typical rock/country/gospel/metal band projects and I seek to improve the way I do things by building a facility that is far superior to my "2 dead rooms" basement studio.
And now, I will dare to ask a few questions. (I feel like I'm standing before the 'Jedi Council' and need to select my words carefully . . )
1. Since my original concept is philosophically flawed, is there a place where I could "sift through" some properly constructed, scientifically considered "blueprints" and simply select a superior model and build that? I'm assuming they would cost something and they're probably well worth it for the author's expertise'.
I have searched this forum and will continue to do so, but I am being completely honest when I say that I am "drowning" in all the variations and technical descriptions. I don't consider myself to be a "dumb musician" but I am certainly not a building engineer, and as I said earlier, this is all quite intimidating to grasp quickly. It's an art-form unto itself.
2. In general. is our premise of the "loft" a losing proposition, sound quality-wise? Sound containment-wise?
It is obviously less expensive to forsake this premise if it's not a good idea to start with. A good friend of mine in Nashville records in this kind of setup and likes it a great deal. Perhaps I need to request his "plans".
I dare not ask further questions right now, I'm already pushing my luck. My two questions encompass just about everything!!
Again, I do appreciate this site. I just gotta stop wearing my heart on my sleeve and start learning the rules of studio construction.
-J
Take a look at this basic informational package put together by John Sayers, designed to get you as a studio designer, equipped with knowledge...use-able, durable knowledge that has passed the test of time and is supported often in the books that you are reading and the online documents you have yet to encounter.
I'd think getting a quote from a experienced studio designer should be considered. If you want to start building as soon as possible this would be the way to go. You'll get a great studio design and they'll let you know what you can do with your budget. I'm sure some folks here can suggest a few people for the job.