New to Studio Construction, Can anyone pls help.

Hey all, i just got on this forum today and have been reading many posts but still haven't figured out the solution to my problem. My friends and I have been jamming in my friends basement but we have to stop everyday around 5pm or so when his mom gets home. I get home from work at about 4 everyday so I only get about an hour or so of quality playing time. I play the Bass and i know from experience how badly a loud bass guitar rattles the house. Sooooo... we've decided to try to turn a section of his unfinished basement into a soundproof room/studio so that we can play at all hours and leave his house undisturbed. I was wondering if this was at all an even possible expedition we are about to embark on and if so, was the best/cheapest way to do it. The basement floor is concrete, and the walls are concrete block with plumbing lines running against them. The ceiling is raftered with no tiles or insulation atm, so im guessing a drop ceiling is probally neccessary. My plan right now was to use 2x6x8 for the framing with 5/8 in rock on either side, but i don't know what i should use to insulate them, and whether or not i should fasten plywood to the rock. Should i use a floating floor? And when all is said and done will the drums/bass be audible from the floor above the basement? I know its asking a lot but I would greatly appreciate it if anyone has any useful tips/plans for building such a room.

You are correct in that the most likely way the sound is getting through is the ceiling. Also correct that bass travels more easily through structures.

The ceiling is raftered with no tiles or insulation atm, so im guessing a drop ceiling is probally neccessary. My plan right now was to use 2x6x8 for the framing with 5/8 in rock on either side, but i don't know what i should use to insulate them, and whether or not i should fasten plywood to the rock

I am not clear on what you mean by rock. The framing will not help much. Use RC as detailed in the link. The Recording manual on this website (actually it is SAEcollege's) has a section showing several designs for ceiling construction. Here is a link to the page: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html Scroll to the bottom of the page and you see three ceiling designs. As you look at the STC values between 2 and 3 layers, remember that the STC underrates the low end performance considerably. In reality, MOST of the improvement with the third layer is in the low end.

Should i use a floating floor?

No. The sound is coming from the ceiling, openings between the floors or unlikely, up through the walls.

And when all is said and done will the drums/bass be audible from the floor above the basement?

We can't answer that. First of all in reality is no such as sound PROOFING. It is sound ISOLATING. Secondly, think of controlling where sound does not go as being like trying to shape a balloon with air in with you hands. If you push on the sides, the top will pop and bottom will pop out. You have to address all parts of the balloon. Once you have the ceiling treated, will the sound then travel through a thin door up the stairwell? Are heating ducts going to carry the sound throughout the house? Have a friend walk around in the house as you are playing and note if the sound level changes further away from the stairwell. If it does, then your course of action would be to improve that route. Good luck![/code]

People do this sort of thing on a regular basis - however, I'd need a LOT more info than you gave before I could tell you whether YOU can do it - for one thing, you mentioned ''good" and "cheap" in the same breath - this is not a common combination anywhere I know of. Here are some of the things I'd need to know before I could give you an idea of possible plans - What size area? Include height as is, as well as length/width. How is the upstairs floor built? subfloor, floor, carpet, etc, describe it as if you were going to build it yourself. How handy are you and your band mates with tools, and are they available to you? What is the range of your budget? When it all comes down to it, you can isolate almost anything if you have the right design and budget and abilities - we need to find out whether that's you, or if you guys should invest in Pods and headphones and E-drums. Your answers to the above questions will get the ball rolling... Steve

AVare, you answered the floating floor question - "No. The sound is coming from the ceiling, openings between the floors or unlikely, up through the walls" - Actually, it would be really nice if sound isolation were that simple. Here is a study on noise control that briefly mentions flanking - I had a better link, but don't see it at the moment - http://www.tastimber.tas.gov.au/species ... oBull3.pdf Sound can travel through any structure that isn't isolated from hard contact, then radiate out through wall panels. For this reason, serious isolation, especially of low frequencies, can take some hard work... Steve

Thanks for the comment on my post.

Actually, it would be really nice if sound isolation were that simple.

What happened was that I assumed certain things when I wrote that. The problem being that I did not detail those assumptions in my post The assumptions included the following. 1. That like every house I have been in with a basement, the house structure is supported by the concrete walls of the basement 2. The majority of the concrete walls is underground. 3. The basement walls are bare, that is no paneling etc. attached to the walls and ceiling. 4. There are no inside partitions in the basement attached to the ceiling. Putting 1 and 2 together, any sound vibration from the floor going up walls would be effectively trying to move the mass of the concrete floor, the earth beneath it the concrete wall,a nd the earth behind it. So the vibration of the concrete floor would be negligible compared to all the other possible transmission routes. With 3 and 4, there would be no flanking paths around the concrete. As I thought about this while I wrote this post, I realized how silly 4 was. Without having much detail, I wrote in as much detail as the original post. That is why I used the word "unlikely." :)

Here is a study on noise control that briefly mentions flanking - I had a better link, but don't see it at the moment - http://www.tastimber.tas.gov.au/species ... oBull3.pdf

Thanks for the link. I'll look it up. Is the better link this one? http://www.usg.com/Design_Solutions/2_3_2_flank_sound.asp It is a good article. I think I got the link from one of your posts! An interesting story about flanking paths. In the seventies some architects were testing a new wall construction (I think at the NRC) for sound isolation. The results were abysmal. Much worse than several designs that should have been worse. They disassembled the test aprtition and discovered that the one of the carpenters who had built the wall had driven one nail that connected the two sides of the partition together! BTW I enjoy your posts very much. Thanks.

Glad you're enjoying yourself - I have that link also, but the one I was looking for was one of the Canadian ones, CBD series. I was thinking they had done one just on flanking noise. BTW, sound can travel just fine through concrete, so for serious isolation you would still need to isolate the sound from ever impinging on the concrete. WSDG have an article on their site on a night club that was built in an office building (at ungodly expense) that is isolated so well that the 100+ dB club can't be heard outside in the other offices - full floating was one of the key things that helped accomplish that (along with serious mass, of course, and probably some re-engineering to help support it all) Let's see what Silk brings back, I love a challenge... Steve

WSDG have an article on their site on a night club that was built in an office building

Are referring to the club in Basel? John seems (rightly) very proud of that project.

Being more interested in the "how" and "why" than the "where", I didn't mentally file that info - when I went back to the WSDG site last nite I couldn't find the article, so can't say where it was. You're likely correct though, since you were familiar with the item at all... Steve

Is this the article? http://www.wsdg.com/resources/resour.php?SL=te&BL=7 It is the one I was refering to.[/quote]

Yeah, that's the one - thanks... Steve

Thanks for the reply guys i appreciate ur help.... The exact size of the room has yet to be determined, my guess though is that the room will probably be somewhere around 15x20 feet, we have a lot of room to work with. The ceiling height right now from floor to rafters is 8ft, with about another 1-2ft of space between the rafters and the actual upper floor. The whole floor above the area in question is hardwood/tile i believe. The room will be in the corner of the basement against 2 concrete walls, however, they both have PVC plumbing lines running against them, so we will most likely still have to build a frame for those 2 walls as well, that leaves us about 6in of airspace between the frame and the wall. There is also a window well in each of the walls which i dont think should affect anything. Tools are not an issue, we have access to all the tools we will need, and our budget is probably somewhere around 800$ give or take a few hundred. We are all pretty handy, on of us is an electrician, one is a sheetmetal worker, and i am something of a novice carpenter, manpower is not an issue. The only thing i wouldn't know how to do is put in the drop ceiling. BTW Avare, "rock" is in reference to the 5/8in "Sheetrock" or "Drywall" we were going to use on the frame. I hope this is most of the info u will need Steve, and thx again for ur help. -Ben

I just checked out the saecollege website and checked out the STC rating section. It gave me good ideas on how to work the walls/ceiling, but how does a staggered stud wall work, do u just use 2x6's or 2x8's for the top and bottom of the frame and stagger 2x4 studs, it seems to make sense.

Nvm, I just read the construction section and it answered my inquiry. ;)

Wow, sae institute site is great! My only question is what is gypsum board? Is it like drywall and where can i get it? I live in NJ where there is a home depot around every corner, would they carry it? And also, when I attach it the the plywood walls should i glue it up?

My only question is what is gypsum board? Is it like drywall and where can i get it?

The different names used for the same product, and trade names being used generically is very confusing. Think of it this way The wallboard made by USG is the same product. Home Depot will know the name used in your area. Subtle hint, USG stands for United States Gypsum. :D

when I attach it the the plywood walls should i glue it up?

Gluing is not necessary in this application, but it won't hurt. You are mentioning plywood again. Why? IF drywall is cheaper, you use that. Good luck! Andre

Sheet rock, drywall, gyp rock, gyp board, wallboard, gypsum wallboard, gypsum, plasterboard, all the same thing. Andre, sorry to correct one little thing but it DOES matter if you glue successive layers in the same wall leaf - doing that causes all the layers to act as one, which generally reduces the effectiveness of the isolation. This is because leaving each layer in a leaf to act on its own causes more than one panel resonance, and more than one coincidence dip. This means that whatever frequency gets through ONE of the layers easiest will NOT get through the other layer(s) as easy, due to the different resonance - in fact, about the only GOOD reason to glue multi layers is to lower the panel resonance - but this comes at a cost of having all the weakness in that leaf be at one frequency. That frequency will pass through easier. It's better to achieve lowered mass-air-mass resonance in a wall by increasing the air cavity between leaves, and by constructing each leaf in a double leaf wall different from its partner so that the two leaves don't have the same characteristics. Silk, actually we'll need EXACT construction details on your whole space in order to not steer you wrong on this - and with a budget of only $800, you don't want to have to do anything twice. You need to check out some of the drawings both here and on the design forum, and do some drawing of your own, showing existing and proposed wall construction, ceiling construction, room shape, etc - Then we will be more able to suggest ways to go and ideas to keep within budget... Steve

Nothing to apologize for. Correcting people AND providing the underlying knowledge is how we learn.

doing that causes all the layers to act as one,...

An excellent description of the theory why the layers should not be glued together! I used to believe this, until I read from several acoustics designers (and yes I can not remember where or which ones) that they believe that making it one contiguous leaf is actually better. As you wrote, the best way to lower the partition resonance is to increase the space. Are there any studies published on this issue? I am not aware of any. :cry: This has intrigued me enough that I will do some calculations and post the results for discussion in a separate thread. Going back to the subject of the thread:

You need to check out some of the drawings both here and on the design forum, and do some drawing of your own, showing existing and proposed wall construction, ceiling construction, room shape, etc - Then we will be more able to suggest ways to go and ideas to keep within budget...

Great advice. Keeping us on topic and helping Silk. Andre

One thing I've considered is doing walls with one side glued and on 12" stud centers for mass/stiffness, then the other leaf on steel, with resilient channel, and three different thicknesses of NOT glued gypsum. Eric doesn't think this difference in thickness matters much, but I've seen calculations that show it helps at least a bit... (note I said Calculations, not reality, though) Steve