Is diffusion dead?

Whatever. It's pointless to argue over subjective stuff like "sounds better" or "sounds worse" so I don't even try.All I care about is what can be proven

once again all of Dr Floyd work is proven and in his book you should find proof of how thing work and why what you state as a proof of irregularities is only a bad interpretation of what humans hear in small rooms few post back you stated that your diffuser sounded great here the quote so please don't say sound reproduction quality is not important.

The "crossover" frequency is determined mainly by the lower limit of the diffusors. It's not a hard transition, and I promise you they sound great. Besides the video All About Diffusion I mentioned above, our Hearing is Believing demo also lets you hear them in action. Even more important, look at how much more uniform the RT60 decays become with our diffusors versus bare walls. I'm not trying to brag about my company's diffusors! But you did ask.

it is all sow a fact that the microphone used in such a demonstration is not the equivalent of a head and 2 ears and there is to start no head transfer functions no discrimination depending on frequency and direction no tone variance with angle etc. etc.

valentin wrote:

Remember not because you can measure something it means it correct or not correct

Yes, and my opinion about the damage done by early reflections is based mainly on listening. I remember very well the first time the value of absorbing reflections was shown to me. My friend, studio designer Wes Lachot visited me, and we played some music on my living room system that had only bass traps at the time. At his urging I grabbed two pieces of 703 from my basement and we propped them up on chairs at the side-wall reflection points. The improvement in imaging and clarity was immediately obvious. Soon after I added permanent absorbers in my living room and also my home studio, and I'd never consider going back. More: When the first prototypes of my company's diffusors were ready, I replaced the two side-wall absorbers in my living room with diffusors. My wife and I sat on the couch, I put on some music, and we both looked at each other and said "Much worse!" This was after having absorbers there for several years. More: The way my living room is set up, if you stand behind the couch and lean down a bit, your head is too far back to be in the "reflection free" zone. This makes it very easy to quickly hear the music with and without early reflections. This has become a standard demo when friends and potential customers visit. Everyone prefers the sound with reflections absorbed. Measurements came after, as a way to learn why the sound was so much better with absorption. --Ethan

Ethan, I think you just gave a great demonstration of the huge difference between learning something about the theory of sound by reading books and looking at pretty graphs and tables, and actually sitting down to LISTEN to sound, then figuring out the science behind what you hear. Some people seem to think that reading a book about sound is better than actually hearing it. Kind of like assuming that simply reading a book about flying an F-16 will enable you to actually fly it. - Stuart -

yesterday i saw your videos on difusion it is kind of contradictory to see you demonstrate how a guitar sound great with a diffuser just beside it even if it is not a optimal position and the microphone (ear) also just beside and then an absorber and to see how dead and uninvolving the music is well its the same with music coming from a speaker reflections make music richer that's why we here music in extremely live halls and this is preferred to the one played at out side with no boundaries common Ethan you are great musician and have been doing a great job promoting acoustics and helping many people all over all i have to say is that i shall respect your view even if i am not totally for it.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Ethan, I think you just gave a great demonstration of the huge difference between learning something about the theory of sound by reading books and looking at pretty graphs and tables, and actually sitting down to LISTEN to sound, then figuring out the science behind what you hear. Some people seem to think that reading a book about sound is better than actually hearing it. Kind of like assuming that simply reading a book about flying an F-16 will enable you to actually fly it. - Stuart -

and actually sitting down to LISTEN to sound

This coming from someone how still listens through yamahas ns10 and think of a reference speaker makes me :yahoo: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This coming from someone how still listens through yamahas ns10 and think of a reference speaker makes me

What ARE you smoking? I've never even owned a set of NS-10s! You were the one telling us how NS-10s and Auratones sound the same, and that average home stereo speakers have wonderful flat response.... :) Maybe your reading comprehension could do with a little brushing up. Right along with your acoustic comprehension.

What ARE you smoking? I've never even owned a set of NS-10s!

but....weren't you the one telling everyone in an extensive post why people used NS10s? viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13590&p=93790&hilit=NS10#p93790

yes he was and when he ask me to put proof for my statements i did. so Ethan and many others may not agree with certain side reflections as been a good thing that i can understand because it been the way things have been done for many many years new theories have always had a bad time in the beginning and some will never get to the light but i will support this one to me soundman 2020 comments have become too thin :blah: :blah: :blah: surely its mutual

valentin wrote:

it is kind of contradictory to see you demonstrate how a guitar sound great with a diffuser just beside it even if it is not a optimal position and the microphone (ear) also just beside

That's the best way to show people what a diffusor "sounds like" when they're not able to see and hear one in person. But it's not necessarily wrong to have diffusors near to a source or microphone. Do you not agree that the diffusors in my video, even very close, sounded much better than a bare wall or curved surface? That's why I included the photo from Skywalker sound showing diffusors used intentionally that way. Skywalker has an amazing room that's very large. They didn't have to put diffusors so close for that recording, yet they chose to. Diffusors in small rooms have other benefits. My Hearing is Believing video shows how much more even the RT60 times are when diffusors line the entire room.

that's why we here music in extremely live halls and this is preferred to the one played at out side with no boundaries

A room the size you find in most homes is totally different than a concert hall! In a concert hall the side-wall and ceiling reflections are not early. I'm curious: 1) How large is your listening / mixing room? 2) Do you have any absorbers at the early reflection points? 3) Have you ever measured the room response at the listening position? --Ethan

my dedicated music room is 4.11 x 5.35 x2.35 meters and is at this moment under construction this is not my first room that i acoustically design and i do have measurement equipment this room shall be ready in about 3 weeks here are some pictures photo of garage area where room is sketchup plan and as you will see a am putting money where my mouth is celling 2d qrd diffusers 5" deep wall diffusers 9" deep here is one of the room i have design here is me making measurements ant a anechoic chamber

here some other words from Dr. Trevor J. Cox (SALFORD UNIVERSITY) and Dr. Peter D’Antonio (RPG)

In critical listening rooms, a mixture of absorbers and diffusers is used to control the acoustics of a space. Treatment is placed to control first order reflections. When absorbers are used, the sonic images forming the soundstage are points in space. When diffusers are used, these images take on a more natural width and depth. Which material is correct, absorber or diffuser, is to a certain extent a matter of personal taste. If all the treatment is absorption, then the room turns out to be rather dead. While some people favour this for mixing audio, others do not, and for a listening room a very absorbent environment is not best. Consequently, if some liveliness is to be left in the room, a combination of absorbers and diffusers must be used

page 4 introduction acoustic absorbers and diffusers all these words are from people far wiser than me and that have devoted a lot of time and effort to scientific ways

Help me out here...are you guys on the same page or different sides?

Diffusion city! That little room cannot sound clear/good? Do you have a share in a diffusion company? :shock:

it will definitely not have the pinpoint stage that a none environmental room has on that i will agree but that's not what i am looking for in this design about clearnes i think it will be very clear and sound great the Rt will be around .35 +-.05

valentin Also, are those pallets just to keep the the product off the floor? It's not some kind of "floating floor" system :mrgreen:

lilith_envy wrote:

valentin Also, are those pallets just to keep the the product off the floor? It's not some kind of "floating floor" system :mrgreen:

:lol: :lol: :lol: just to keep them of the floor that room is basically a concrete bunker i will put an acoustical door a windows

xSpace wrote:

Help me out here...are you guys on the same page or different sides?

we are more on the same side as we both agree in using difusion in small rooms but Ethan perspective is more a RFZ (reflection free zone) and mine is a RRZ (reflection rich zone)

valentin wrote:

here some other words from Dr. Trevor J. Cox (SALFORD UNIVERSITY) and Dr. Peter D’Antonio (RPG)

That's all fine, and I see little to disagree with. But one key thing missing is how the choice of diffusion versus absorption is influenced by the size of the room. This is crucial! The closer the reflection points are to the listener, the more you need (IMO) to use absorption. Also, this part is highly subjective:

When absorbers are used, the sonic images forming the soundstage are points in space. When diffusers are used, these images take on a more natural width and depth.

Who is to say what sounds more "natural?" Especially given that most pop music today is assembled from separate sources recorded with close mics one track at a time. :mrgreen: After you finish your room with diffusors at the reflection points, it'd be great if you covered them with absorbers as a test. If you record and post some music along the lines of my Hearing is Believing video, I'd love to hear the difference. --Ethan

"Sure, that's a small room." The usage of this term "small room" is a blanket statement that assumes to include every bedroom that these young guys are attempting to build a hit maker recording environment in. It is misleading. It should be quantified with a room volume...because I am seeing upwards of 1,800 cubic feet in the realtraps room and the other posters room. It is misleading, that is just my opinion, but I do know how to multiply a few numbers.

After you finish your room with diffusers at the reflection points, it'd be great if you covered them with absorbers as a test

i had experience with that configuration, but for my personal enjoyment use i prefer this one :D thanks