Disasterpiece Drum Room-Design Phase

Introduction - Hey everyone, I've been a member of this board for a while now and I'm ready to start my drum room. A few months ago I started a rehearsal/studio thread but I decided I didn't want to give up the space/didnt have the funds to do so. So I've decided I am going to build a drum room. Goal: - To design and construct a relatively small drum room that is suitable for practicing and recording drums. - Acoustics as well as Isolation are important. - The room will be located in the basement and preventing as much sound from getting upstairs is my main goal... My neighbors are all deaf or cool. - I understand with such a small budget that I can only do so much, but I'm dealing with the cards I was dealt and I will jsut have to do as much as I can with those cards. How Loud?: I'm a drummer... nuff said. As loud as a drummer can play a typical drum set is as loud as I am, haha. Existing Construction: - Completely stripped basement area - Dimensions - Approx. 11'6" W x 28' x 7'2" - The area that I will be using from the drum room will be 11'6" W x (11' - 18'6") x 7'2" - The reason I wrote 11' - 18'6" is that I have 18'6" available to use, but I would like to use as little of that as I... well should. - Walls - Concrete form-not sure of specifics on that - Ceiling- Bare- Ceiling joists and bottom of 1st floor - Floor - Poured concrete - not sure of specifics. -Obstructions - On the right side of the room (18'6" L) is the middle of my house... so there is a steel I-beam -On window on the left side of room - approx 8' from the back wall. - Drain pipe that runs through 7'6" of left wall. *See picture because I know how confusing this must sound... Planned Construction: -Inside-out walls:2x4 studs / Single Sole Plate / Double Top Plate -Top Plates Attached with RSIC - DC04 Clips to existing ceiling joists (spaced properly) -Ceiling - 2x6 attached to top plate with truss brackets (hanging at 1" lower then existing joists -Beefing between existing joists - 2 layers of sheet 1/4 or 5/8" sheet rock, cleats, and caulk. -2 layers of 5/8 sheet rock on walls and ceiling - backrod and caulk where needed -Staining the concrete floor and that will be my finished floor, maybe an area rug. Planned Treatment: - Have done a great deal of research, but I will cross that bridge once I determine the length of the room and decide on contruction. Budget: -$1000 up front, but will be able to put a few hundred in each month. Questions: 1. Considering the low ceiling height and small area, how long would you suggest I construct this room. It would be easier to make it about 11' long to avoid framing around the drain pipe, but if it would make a significant difference, dispite the small dimensions, I'll do it. 2. What do you think of my proposed construction? Specifically, my proposed us of the DC04 clips to isolate the walls and ceiling. 3. Any other suggestions would be great. EDIT** Forgot to mention in original post that the 2 walls that are NOT next to the foundation will be double walls(separate frames). Is this the correct way to do this? Tell me if I got this right... -First Leaf - interior inside out frame construction - connected to concrete floor but decoupled from ceiling and walls -Second leaf - 2 walls are foundation and other two are coupled to existing ceiling and foundation walls but not coupled to inner leaf, except by means of the concrete floor? -Sorry, if this edit is confusing. Ohh and if this is the correct way to do it, what would be a good combination of mass? I know mixing gypsum thickness's is recommend, so I was thinking: -Inner leaf - 2x 5/8 gypsum -Outer leaf- 2x wall=foundation //// Other 2 walls - 2x 1/2 gypsum (maybe OSB in the middle of the gypsum?) *What would you recommend?

Hey everyone, I am getting closer to construction, but no replies... did i leave something out? Well anyway, I bought rod's book and read all the sections that would apply to my room and it helped a lot. I've been toying around with not leaving a space for a small home theater and just making a big live room. -My new goal would be to make a room that could: 1.) serve as a drum practice room 2.) serve as an effective practice room for a 4/5pc band 3.) have the ability to record decent live tracks for us to review so that we can improve our songs My main concern would be the room ratio, I know that with small rooms, ratios are less important that room treatment but the available space has a terrible ratio: 7' : 18' : 22' = 1 : 2.57 : 3.14 New questions if I decide to use all the available space...: 1.) Do you think that I could achieve all these goals with such a low ceiling height? 2.) Should I use all the space (7'H x 18' W x 22'L approx.) or adjust to come closer to a 'good' ratio? I've honestly done a great deal of research on these forums, recording.org, and read rod's book but this would be a big investment and I just want to make sure that if I decide to go with a rehearsal room instead of just a drum room, that I could make it sound good for band practices/recording those practices. Again the room would not need the capabilities to record studio quality tracks, because the recordings would be solely for our own use... but I would like them to sound decent.

Hello Disaster! I've not got any advice or words of wisdom for you, sorry....but your project looks interesting and I'll keep an eye on it if you don't mind. Best of luck JB

Hey no problem, thanks for keeping an eye out. Hopefully I'll start my construction soon. Even though this build would be much easier then a full studio build(control room/live/iso), there is a lot less info here of rehearsal spaces. Although I'm not looking for recording studio quality tracks, I would like to make sure I'm spending my money and using my space in the most effective way.

Hi again Disaster, [i] I was wondering what finished width your doors would be, unless I've missed something on your plans, and also which way they would be opening. [ii] Are you just concerned with keeping the noise leakage as low as possible? Cheers JB

1. Well that would all depend on how I setup my room. I have 3 different ideas and I'll sketchup all 3 today so that you guys could give me more help. 2. Absolutely. My goal is to be able to rehearse with a 4pc heavy rock/blues+metal influence band at a reasonable level, and have the the noise level be tolerable on the floor above.

The acoustics could probably be easier to sort out, but at the cost of isolation - that's looking at your proposed room dimensions at least. Also, the way I read your dimensions it seems you'll have a fairly low ceiling height [is that correct?] so getting MASS up there is going to be tricky. Have you considered a floating drum riser, and maybe risers for the amps? That will help to get the drums off the slab/foundation. [i] What's the foot print area of your kit, or whichever will be the biggest Kit in your basement? [ii] What is the highest Cymbal height you expect to have? JB

Yes, the ceiling height is 7'2" foundation to existing joist. The new joists, that will rest on my new isolated 2x4 frames(inner leaf), will hang 1" lower then the existing joists, then have 2x5/8 gypsum attached to them. That would put my interior height at approx. 83.75", so for our sake ~ 7' (84"). I also plan to build a decent size cloud above my drum kit, which won't be a probably b/c I'm sitting down while playing. 1. Total area of my drum kit, not sure because it's at my guitarist's house right now. But I plan to have a floating riser for the kit that would be somewhere around 7'6" x 7'6" 2. Again, I don't have access, right now... but I believer the highest cymbal is 5ft-ish, maybe lower. Here are my *new* 2 options: Option 1: Much longer room/narrower room (approx 7' H x 10.5' W x 18.5' L Main area, with 7' W, 8.5' L extension for vocalist and stuff. Pros: - Leaves 7' x 11' x 20' area for future home theater - Less area = less $$$ Cons: - Bad layout, acoustically??? - Cramped for a 4pc band Option 2: Approx 7' H x 18.5'W x 21'L Pros: - Decent ratio, seems to be more acoustical? - Enough room to comfortably fit full band, P/A, laptop w/ usb interface - Enough room to rock the **** out Cons: - More area = more $$$ - Doesn't leave any room for my future home theatre Questions 1. Do you think the extension on option1 would make the room less acoustically sound? 2. Do you think option1 would be sufficient enough to serve as an acoustical, isolated, reasonably comfortable rehearsal space? Saving me money and space for my home theatre 3. Do you think that option1 is simple 2 small and has a terrible ratio so I should go with option 2 because its sexy? 4. Do you think I'm indecisive like a girl, but that it's okay because I'm about to dump a lot of money in this and more so because I've read Rod's book back to back?

Hello Disaster, have you followed the thread by Soundman2020? He was having to really compromise on room ratios but [if I remember correctly] he just ended up getting as much space as possible out of a tight area. Some of the real experts were advising him not to get too hung up on the ratios considering what space he had. JB

have you followed the thread by Soundman2020? He was having to really compromise on room ratios but [if I remember correctly] he just ended up getting as much space as possible out of a tight area.

Exactly. It got to the point where trying to squeeze out a few more millimeters of room dimensions to get even closer to a good ratio became a "battle of diminishing returns". In other words, the changes I could get by modifying a dimension here and there really didn't make much difference acoustically, and made the room itself strange in one sense or another, such as ceiling too low, or room too narrow. I checked many, many possible alternative dimensions, and found that the numbers really didn't change that much, or certainly not enough to make it worthwhile, so I went with a ratio that is a compromise: it gets fairly close to Sepmeyer #2, and still gives me reasonable dimensions. It's not optimal, but it will work, and there are no huge red flags with the ratio I came up with (just minor bright orange ones! :) ). I'm also splaying my walls and ceiling, which helps for several reasons. The only way I'd be able to get even closer to a good ratio would be to drop the ceiling way down low, or widen the room so much that I'd have no space left for a usable LR (Or knock a hole into my neighbor's garage!!) . The advice from the experts was to not get all tied up in ratios anyway, since they are just approximations to get you away from really bad dimensions, and close to good ones. Even the best mathematical models and predictions are only rough estimates at best, and reality could be entirely different from what the numbers say anyway. You'll have to measure the acoustics od the room once it is finished to find out how it REALLY works, then treat accordingly. So, as long as you are not building a cube or square profile room, have a reasonable height ceiling, and are fairly close to a known good ratio, you should be fine. Height is your best friend, acoustically: Low ceilings are not a good idea. Especially with drums, where you will want to put mics overhead: those mics will pick up reflections (and therefore comb filtering) from the ceiling if it is close. Make the ceiling as high as you can, if you possibly can. If not, then just live with what you have, and be aware of the issues that will arise as a result. - Stuart -

Sorry, I haven't checked this thread in a while. Well, I understand that ceiling height is very important when recording drums but I don't have much of a choice. My options would be a room in my basement approx. 11.5' x 20' x 7'H or my garage which would be very narrow, about 8.75' x 19' x 8'-10'(the ceiling begins to angle at 8'... sorry I don't know the technical term) I would prefer the basement because the foundation walls would be beneficial when it comes to sound proofing and I would also appreciate the extra room. Could I get decent results with a 7' ceiling by putting a nice close over the kit? Remember, I/n not looking to create a studio, I simply want to have a drum practice/band rehearsal space that has decent acoustics and can record decent tracks. The recordings. for the most part, would be only for us to listen to and review.

So it's been a while but I finally have the funds to start construction on this room. My final decision was to go with option 2, which can be viewed above. I decided to re-post my ideas now that I changed direction. Introduction - Hey everyone, I've been a member of this board for a while now and I'm ready to start my drum room. A few months ago I started a rehearsal/studio thread but I decided I didn't want to give up the space/didnt have the funds to do so. So I've decided I am going to build a drum room. Goal: - To design and construct a relatively small band rehearsal room. - Acoustics as well as Isolation are important. - The room will be located in the basement and preventing as much sound from getting upstairs is my main goal. - I understand with such a small budget that I can only do so much, but I'm dealing with the cards I was dealt and I will just have to do as much as I can with those cards. - I am not look for studio-quality recordings, however I would like to take some measures to make the room sound good for band practice and to possibly record some tracks for our own review. How Loud?: I'm a drummer... nuff said. As loud as a drummer can play a typical drum set is as loud as I am, haha. Existing Construction: - Completely stripped basement area - Dimensions - Approx. 18.5' x 21' x 7' - This would be somewhere around what the interior finished room dimensions would be - Walls - Concrete form-not sure of specifics on that - Ceiling- Bare- Ceiling joists and bottom of 1st floor - Floor - Poured concrete - not sure of specifics. -Obstructions - Steel I-beam down the center of the room (existing joists sit on this beam) - Drain Pipe/1st floor bathroom plumbing (this is the red area boxed out in my Option2.jpg, which you can see 4 posts up) Planned Construction: -Inside-out walls:2x4 studs / Double Sole Plate / Single Top Plate -Walls attached with DC04 brackets to foundation walls to act as sway brackets -Ceiling - 2x6 attached to top plate with truss brackets (hanging at 1" lower then existing joists -Beefing between existing joists - 2 layers of sheet 5/8" sheet rock, with backer rod, caulk, and help up by 1x3's -2 layers of 5/8 sheet rock on walls and ceiling - backrod and caulk where needed -Staining the concrete floor and that will be my finished floor, maybe an area rug. -To complete to outside leaf that consists of 3 foundation walls and the existing 1st floor+plus beefing and will build a 4th wall. Planned Treatment: - Have done a great deal of research, but I will cross that bridge once I determine the length of the room and decide on contruction. Questions: 1. How advantageous would it be to put pink fluffy insulation between the 2 leaves? Considering I will have rockwool/rigid fiberglass lining the inside leaf. 2. What do you think of my proposed construction? Specifically, my proposed us of the DC04 clips to isolate the walls and ceiling. 3. Do you think my proposed construction for the ceiling is a good idea for decoupling? See attached sketchup file. Sketchup File-hopefully this works https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B2NEc2t3HvD7ZjhmNjViODgtZjgyOS00NWViLWI4MzMtZWYzNGIxYTQ5Y2Vm&export=download&hl=en

Great to see that you are finally moving forward! :) And congratulations on a well thought-out plan!

1. How advantageous would it be to put pink fluffy insulation between the 2 leaves? Considering I will have rockwool/rigid fiberglass lining the inside leaf.

Very advantageous. It damps resonance in the cavity, improves isolation, reduces the MSM resonant frequency, etc. Good idea to put it in!.

3. Do you think my proposed construction for the ceiling is a good idea for decoupling? See attached sketchup file.

Have you considered using Rod's technique of interleaving your new joists in between the existing joists? That way you could gain a few inches of room height. Your final inner-leaf surface would end up just an inch or two below the existing joists. You would probably still loose a bit below that for treatment, at least in some parts of the room, but it might be worth looking at. - Stuart -

Thanks for the quick response, I will use pink stuff then. In regards to new joists - Yes, that's the way it is framed in the sketchup. I have a few questions reguarding new joists. 1. If I use truss brackets to prevent twisting do I still need cross bracing? Btw span in 11ft and I'm using 2x6's 2. The total width is about 22' but my i-beam intereferes. Do you think I can run 2x6's on either side, help up by 4x4's to rest my new 2x6 joists on, resulting in 2 11ft spans? Does that make sense? What I'm describing is framed out in the attached sketchup btw.

I think those questions would be best answered by a structural engineer, or by an experienced contractor who knows what code says in your area. Maybe Rod could comment on that. Or Brien. - Stuart -

10/03/10 - Update -Waterproofing company coming in to finalize contract and start work. Estimated to be done within 1-2 Weeks and guarantees against moisture/flooding. So this makes me feel much more secure. -Contractor that will be helping me build this came and looked at the project. Framing/Sheet-rocking is all planed. The only thing we are debating is where to put insulation between the 2 leaves. I will be putting it between the 2 ceiling leaves and between the wall that is Mass-Wall/Air/Mass-Wall. However, not sure if I'm going to put between the 3 walls that are Mass-Foundation/Air/Mass-Wall. Any comments of that idea? -Last update, this week I will be purchasing a few sheets of 5/8 drywall, backer rod, and acoustic sealant, to start beefing up between the existing joists. My plan is the complete the first leaf, including framing, drywall, caulking, electrical/Hvac penetration, pink insulation, before I approach the inner leaf.

Disasterpiece I have a somewhat similar project in mind, although I have started out with a different plan. Would love to hear about your progress.