Hi, My name is Sam Harris. I am a young Post Sound Designer in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. I work on post for independents film shot here in Oklahoma. Anything form short to Feature length. Some commercial work and little music, dont really have to space to record musicians proper. I am looking to turn 2 rooms in my house into rooms I can use for ADR, Dialog Editing, Stem Mixes, Background, and all the rest that I can do with my facilities and equipment. The two rooms are not that big 11'x11' and 12'x11' both 8' tall. I have made a 3d model of the two room. I think I made the models to scale. http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... 7145fcb37c . I do not care which room is used for control room and which is set up for recording. I am not looking to keep these rooms square. I also have wood floors under carpet so I can go with both floor surfaces. I have read a lot on how to do the walls, so I am really just confused how I should design the rooms to make them sound better. I have labeled everything that I think is needed in the room. The house has a 2ft crawl space below the floor so I can keep the rooms like that or I can redo the floors. I am just trying to get all information that I can to anyone who can help sorry if this is jumbled. I am not worried about the cost too much because I know these rooms are small so what every can be done to improve the acoustics is good. Thanks to anyone who can help.
P.S. Well I have made a few changes to the 3dmodel. I dont know if anyone will even look at them but if anyone does I am doing my best to get them accurate and looking like 2 rooms. I have never done anything like this so just trying to learn. http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... 7145fcb37c
I added the roof attic space. I was thinking it could help with the design. Maybe have the desk up against the wall at the low point to help give some angles. I am not sure. I also removed the windows to the outside. I can cover the windows with insolation and drywall if needed just another ides. Like I said I am young and trying to learn. Thanks again.
Looking for ideas/help on design 3d model
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13538.
Ok I noticed after I made the first post why nobody was replying. I am a noob and did not see John had already done a generic 2 room studio set up. Sorry for not noticing and making a noob mistake. I have thought taken Johns 2 room studio design and using the retro sound proofing wall method found here http://www.soundprooffoam.com/soundproo ... -best.html not using the design exactly just best example to give without more typing. Using these two methods I have started remodeling my 2 rooms for a home Post Sound studio. Here are pics of what we have done the first day and half of second day. I am doing a test pic first to make sure I get the size right then I will upload the rest. I will keep uploading pics. Unless I am told not to. I am just wanting to post these because you never know when someone else will come here looking and my room may help. If anyone has pointers please let me know.
How much isoaltion do you need? The sound isolation methods in the link are way overpriced for what they do. Forget the MLV, use additional layers of gypboard. Teh iosoaltion clips MAY be overkill for what you need.
Andre
Ok here are the rest of the pics. I live in a quit neighborhood so I am just looking for 2 rooms to edit and records thing like Dialog, ADR, VO, and some foley. I am just trying to get the most sound proof and best sounding rooms I can. I know it will not be perfect but better then nothing. Once again any pointers are appreciated thanks.
If you are planing voice and Foley, look at your HVAC system. It will almost certainly have to be quitened.
Andre
MLV meaning multi layer? Please just translate for me real fast(sorry noob). We are using quite rock or it is a drywall that is made by for sound proofing. Is the sound proofing roam just crap? I have talked to a guy that did it that way and he has had good results. I am not so much worried about the price of it all I just want to get the best sound proofing I can. I will then go back with auralux material on the walls. Thanks for the reply though. I am in a state where I am one of the only people doing post sound so not many people here to get help from.
Again thanks for the reply. I am working on the HVAC system too. It is not loud at all now. I have all new system put in when I moved into the house. I am looking into baffling (I think thats the right term) plexy O and I am getting new windows. I am getting as think and as many layers I can. I am also doing plexiglass between the rooms.If you are planing voice and Foley, look at your HVAC system. It will almost certainly have to be quitened. Andre
"http://www.soundprooffoam.com/quiet-barrier.html"
This is the MassLoadedVinyl <MLV> Avare called out.
Plexiglass is a waste of your money in pursuit of isolation. You should slow down, like a lot, and read up on what it is you are doing as you are surely spending too much and will not get what you could better get with more knowledge.
I may have been wrong in saying plexiglass. I am working with a place Audio Associates that builds studios. Like I said we are not using exactly the design John made and soundproofingfoams site. We are taking some from that and many other bits of information. When you say slow down a lot you make me think everything I am doing is wrong can you please go a little more into that. I do not feel what I am doing is too far off. We are just framing now so what we do for isolation can still be changed.
What you are doing is not based on methods we are used to supporting as forum members who have access to world known designers and professionals in the field.
Your build is in a house that currently has a single framed wall with some type of exterior facade and sheetrock on the interior.
The issue with this is that most involved on any level will submit that mass-spring-mass or MAM is the
direction that any build needs to go in the effort to obtain sound isolation.
If I may: "I am not looking to keep these rooms square.", I do not know what this means. There is no support anywhere that suggests a square room is of any value. Far from it.
So.... What is wrong with using the quite batt and another layer or layers of sheetrock? With trying to keep the rooms from being square I am just going buy what I have learned in the few studios I have worked in and other designs I have seen. The studios I worked in always had no parallel walls and would use a very similar method with wall insolation and build to sound proof. I am not saying square rooms are no use I just dont want them square. I dont think I have been in may studio spaces that are 12x12 square, the few had a lot of material on the walls. Would getting rid of the MLV and doing Drywall+Green Glue+Drywall be a better choice?
From long ago: Triple leaf data: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=2142
The worlds cheapest sound isolation tips: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.p ... aeea01a06b
Glazing STC ratings:
http://www.jglacoustics.com/acoustics/s ... lazing.pdf
[it's the best that I can do on such short notice ]
You are far from doing the right procedure and are most likely doing some things that a friend of a friend suggested.
They are wrong and your work is incorrect as it stands. This only means, to you, that it will cost you more to do less.
Ok so I get dont use the materal from sound proofing foam. The only thing we planned to order from them was maybe the iso tracks. I am still not sure how I am far from doing the right procedure? I dont think you like what I am doing with the new walls. I have been told seen and read a lot to tell me 12x12 room with wood floors is bad. They sounded bad. So I needed to build the new walls. We are planning to use a low density insolation. I just read things here on this forum and in many books showing my method of insolation on the new walls in not far off. When I read all the stuff on walls in the reference area it talks about using layers and creating air space. I am planning with the new walls to add insolation then use a drywall material for the wall surface. I was going to use MLV but will not be anymore. I think that I am still fine in my progress. I want like the way the rooms are shaped I just need to get the material for inside the new walls figured out. The echo absorber I assume can be replaced with the low density insolation. Then I can do 2 layers on drywall with Green Glue between? Also the Glass thing you linked in what I was planning to do with the window between the room. I can do much with the exterior window I have neighborhood codes I have to follow. Again sorry for saying plexiglass earlier. I hear what you are saying I just dont see how I am far off.
It is hard to address vague items in your posts. For starters, as xSpace wrote, you a creating a triple leaf with your additional splayed walls. Any advantages of using GreenGlue are more than negated by this point alone.
Note my tagline. It is referring to the amount of time involved.
Andre
Well then I guess I am going to do it wrong then. I just dont see how the new walls will make the sound proofing from the outside worse? To me and everyone I talk to there is no way more sound will get through. The new walls will not have drywall on both sides just the side that you see. It will be old wall+insolation(r13 or 703)+drywall. But you say I should not use the GG because it will be useless. That would be greating the 3leaf too? Would doing drywall on both sides on the new wall be better? Then again something I dont get how adding the new walls makes a product that would help useless. I am just getting different information from different places. One place who builds studios says what I am doing will help, obviously not the best. Then I get you guys saying everything is wrong. I am reading everything I find here. I had read all the link given to me in this post already and I guess I just still dont get how what I am doing is making it worse.
This may help: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11487&hilit=triple+leaf The STC decreased when the third leaf was added to the wall. AndreI just dont see how the new walls will make the sound proofing from the outside worse?
Ok so it still seems to me the biggest and really only concern is the triple leaf walls that I will be creating with the new walls? I need to get rid of echo in the room. If I record ADR flat I can go back with altiverb and other plugin to add the room tone I want for the scene. I am not worried so much about low frequency. I live in a quite neighborhood. The most that I hear now in the rooms is small birds and things like that. My overall goal with this is get as much isolation as possible but have a dead room is more important. I have recorded ADR, and VO in this room before. The only real problem I had was the room sound.
xspace even asked you "So is a three leaf a good assembly for a vocal booth or anything where low frequency loss isn't a concern?" and you said "The short Andre answer would be yes, if low frequency is not a concern. The honest response is "when would you not need LF isolation?" and "If you do not design it properly, you can be pretty well guaranteed that it be screwed up." Further to that, a triple leaf requires greater mass (and cost) than a double leaf for the same isolation. Why do you want to triple leaf to begin with?" I am not trying to just argue what you guys are saying I am just reading things that make it seem way less then what you guys are saying. I also did try to contact consultants all that called were booked for a few months and the person who is helping (very little, I dont expect people to give free support when that is what they do for a living, like doctors at a party and a weird rash) is just doing a friend favor.
Get Rod's Book.
http://www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/1598630342/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253291704&sr=1-1
Sound isolation and room sound are two different things.
Andre
I know. I am using the room deign and later treatment on the walls for the room sound. I am trying to achieve isolation with the insolation materials and other things inside the walls. I also have read that book. I guess I dont know what to say. Myself and the guy helping me with the build have read a few books on this and read a lot here. We feel we are following what a lot of research says to do. I guess it seems to us at this point we are being told by you guys we are wrong but not being told what is wrong other then you dont like my new walls. There also seems to be some contradiction going on. I was told 3 leaf is bad but then read by the same person who said that it was good for what I am doing. Thank you for the help though. It is just hard to figure out if we are wrong because I keep reading things saying 703 between the studs, green clips for the hat channels, then 1/4 drywall+green Glue+5/8 drywall. Then on the drywall use auralux sound foam to deaden the room as need. I have a program to run frequency sweeps to help determine the treatment needed on the walls.
I am gusseing I am one of the "you guys." I do not know how much isolation you need. I aks in my first post in this thread and received no practical response. I am working from acoustic practice of what partitions do. [quiote]There also seems to be some contradiction going on. I was told 3 leaf is bad but then read by the same person who said that it was good for what I am doing. Thank you for the help though. [/quote] Read that thread in its entirity. The subject wall has 6" of concrete in the middle. The wall has a MAMAM resonance affecting 125 Hz. That is well within the range of the male human voice, if you want to record it accurately. Your wall, from I can tell, will have a resonance octaves above that.I guess it seems to us at this point we are being told by you guys we are wrong but not being told what is wrong other then you dont like my new walls.
Vague "I keep reading" without references or links. If you have read here about wall construction you have read that inside the walls there is no advantage to 703. Earlier in this thread you did not write 703 in the walls. In your first post you wrote about using MLV The inconsisitency in your posts implies lack of certaintly in your own knowledge. The mixed drywal thickness is not from Rod has written, nor my recommendation.It is just hard to figure out if we are wrong because I keep reading things saying 703 between the studs, green clips for the hat channels, then 1/4 drywall+green Glue+5/8 drywall. ..
The general recommendation includes bass traps and the proviso that foam absorbers are expensive for what they do and not as efective at low frequencies as fiberglas or mineral wool absorbers. There is also diffusion mentioned. BTW, acoustics is not easy field to understand intuitively, and there are plenty of snake oil salesmen around. Don't feel disheartened. This process of going through your design is infinitely better than reading that you have wasted thousands of dollars, or worse, you have to tear down and rebuild. Good and keep the questions coming! AndreThen on the drywall use auralux sound foam to deaden the room as need.
I am sorry for the first post referring to SPF.com. I have from the beginning been using cheaper better rated products(at least they have better STC rating). I was unsure until last night what I was using in the wall but from what I see here http://www.owenscorning.com/comminsul/d ... Series.pdf 703 seems to be a better choice then R13, not much but some. Unless you can show me something that shows otherwise. I also have seen that the view here is that R13 is fine I just want to use something better if I can. I know I have read R13 has no sound proofing/isolation properties. The biggest thing I have changed has been the drywall. I was going to use soundboard dyrwall. I am unable to find the link but I did read that it is good to do different thickness of drywall because they will have different resonance frequency. The MLV is no longer in the picture. From the test on the Green Glue site I will get a better STC rating with 2 layers of drywall and Green Glue between then using one layer of drywall with MLV behind it. I know that 2 leaf is better but I dont think 2 leaf would have been possible and 3 leaf still offers an improvement. I know it does not help as much with the low but from the post you linked earlier the graph still shows a good improvement. The isotrack have also removed. We are trying to find any research on how having a resilient channel with Drywall+GG+Drywall will perform. I know that foam is not the best for acoustics. I am still researching all that. I also kind of have to wait for the room to be built before I can get the acoustic material. I plan to use diffusers, bass traps, ect and anything that maybe needed to help. I guess with the first post I was using the soundprooffoam reference because I didn't remember all the names. I forget details like that all the time, and it was at the time a good visual representaion, not anymore so we can forget that site. I have to right down a lot of stuff to remember. I am sorry if I come off bad with the replies. You snake oil reference is good for how I feel after reading a lot of this stuff. Everyone company says something different and every person seems to think one idea works better then another. So I am not trying to be ungrateful. You have free dinners if you are ever in Oklahoma for sure.
12x12 is bad acoustically, because both dimensions are the same. So you will have room modes reinforced in both dimensions. You need to get away from duplicate dimensions, and choose a known good room ratio, or at least get close to one. Wood floors are NOT bad. In fact, they are GOOD. . . . when done properly. Many designers recommend wooden floors (or rather: hard, solid rigid floors in general), for a variety of reasons.I have been told seen and read a lot to tell me 12x12 room with wood floors is bad.
If "insolation" means rock wool or fiberglass insulation, then low density is no use. Optimum density is 48 kg/m3. Higher density than that does not buy you much additional benefit. Lower density does not do the job.We are planning to use a low density insolation.
Shape is probably not too important. Room ratio is important, and wall angles are important if you splay them, as is the ceiling angle, if you plan to angle that too. But overall shape is not too much of an issue for the live room. For a control room, of course, shape is paramount, and aesthetic "likes" or "dislikes" take a back seat.I want like the way the rooms are shaped I just need to get the material for inside the new walls figured out.
What is an "echo absorber"? Do you mean some kind of treatment to deal specifically with flutter echo, or are you talking about overall room treatment, or are you talking about bass trapping? If you angle your walls and ceiling correctly, then flutter echo should not even be much of a problem.The echo absorber I assume can be replaced with the low density insolation.
Well then you'll end up with something that does not accomplish what you are hoping it might. If you do it wrong, it will not work. Sorry to be blunt, but you cannot bypass the laws of physics by hoping they will go away for you: they wont. They apply to your room, just like any other room. If you don't take them into account, your room will not work. Period.Well then I guess I am going to do it wrong then.
Then you are talking to the wrong people! You should be listening to folks like Andre and xSpace, who are telling you the truth: A 3-leaf wall will always have WORSE isolation in the low frequency end of the spectrum than a 2-leaf wall, all other things being equal. This is a simple principle of physics. From your photos, it certainly looks like you ARE building three-leaf walls. The existing walls appear to be standard single-stud 2-leaf walls. You are putting up a second frame next to that, and you are going to add a third leaf: That is a BAD idea. It WILL reduce the isolation in the low frequency end of the spectrum. That is a basic fact, dictated by the laws of physics.I just dont see how the new walls will make the sound proofing from the outside worse? To me and everyone I talk to there is no way more sound will get through
Nobody said that! Green Glue is good, and does the job it was designed to do. It does it very well, if you use it correctly.But you say I should not use the GG because it will be useless.
Putting GG between two layers of drywall does NOT create a 3-leaf wall. The layers are in contact, so they act as one leaf. The thing that is creating the third leaf is that your existing walls already has two leaves, and you are about to add the third one. You should take OFF one leaf form the existing wall BEFORE you add the new leaf. That will improve your isolation greatly.That would be greating the 3leaf too?
If I understand what you are saying, that would make a FOUR-leaf wall, which is even worse than a 3-leaf for low end isolation!!!! Like I said before: You need to take off leaves on the existing walls, to have only one leaf left on the existing frame, and you also need to beef up the mass in that leaf. THEN you build your second leaf.Would doing drywall on both sides on the new wall be better?
Adding mass to a wall will get you "mass-law" increases in isolation. Mass law says that you get 6 dB extra isolation each time you DOUBLE the mass. So if you need 48 dB more isolation than you have now (quite probable), then you can double the present mass 8 times over, and you will get there. So if you currently have 2 layers of drywall, you can increase that to SIXTEEN layers (add SEVEN new layers to EACH side) and you'll get the isolation you need.... That's what you will get with mass law. On the other hand, if you build a proper MSM wall, you can accomplish the same level of isolation with just 4 layers of drywall in two leaves. But you have to do it right. You can't just guess. How much more isolation do you need than you have now? What are your numbers? How loud are you now, in dB? How quiet do you need to be? Without that, you don't even have a goal. If you don't have real numbers to work with, you cannot possibly design what you need. And if you don't design it, it will not work! The probability that you'll get the right results by pure luck and no design, is somewhere around zero.Then again something I dont get how adding the new walls makes a product that would help useless.
Then you must be looking in some wrong places! The information you get here, on this forum, is based on solid scientific principles of acoustics, backed up by years of research, and successfully implemented by world-class studio designers. Information you find elsewhere that contradicts what you find here, can safely be ignored.I am just getting different information from different places.
Sad to say, but if they are not following the laws of physics in their recommendations to you, and can't tell you how an MSM wall works or what mass-law is, then I wouldn't be trusting them too much! Lots of places claim to "build studios". Not all of them do so successfully....One place who builds studios says what I am doing will help,
Well, you DO want isolation for your room, don't you? That IS why you are building it, right? So that it is isolated from the outside world? So that you don't annoy the neighbors and end up with the cops knocking on your door all the time? And so that if you record anything in there, you can do that without capturing sounds from the outside world too? If you don't need isolation, then why would by bother building a studio like that at all? In any event, your triple-leaf wall isn't the only concern: it is one of many. Others include room rations, HVAC, shape, materials and treatment.Ok so it still seems to me the biggest and really only concern is the triple leaf walls that I will be creating with the new walls?
Do you mean flutter echo? Or do you mean resonance? Or do you mean reverberation? That's three very different things.I need to get rid of echo in the room.
You can hear small birds from inside your room, and you want to record ADR in there, and you say you don't need isolation? Sorry, but I'm not understanding your build at all!!!! That makes no sense.The most that I hear now in the rooms is small birds and things like that.
Well which is it? First you say you DON'T need isolation, now you say you DO need as much as possible? It's really hard to hit a moving target... :)My overall goal with this is get as much isolation as possible but have a dead room is more important.
Actually, this may just be the only studio design forum on the Internet where you DO get free support from people who design and build studios for a living! That is why John created the forum. That's what he does for a living, and there are piles of free advice from him here, if you'll just look around. There are also several other world-class studio designers and builders, and world-class acoustic experts, and world-class construction experts here on the forum too, and they all do offer free advice, even though designing and building is what they do for a living. (And then there are folks like me who have been hanging around long enough, and have researched and studied hard enough to pick up a few tips here and there, and don't mind sharing what we learned for free.) So if its free advice that you are after, you'll get it here, . . . provided that you come at this from the right angle: first, learn the basics. Then propose your design, in detail. Then ask specific questions, using the right terminology.I dont expect people to give free support when that is what they do for a living,
I very much doubt that anyone here will tell you that 3-leaf is GOOD! And I didn't see anyone do that here either. You can build a 3-leaf wall if you want, but if you expect it to do the SAME job as a similar two leaf wall, then you will have to spend a lot more money on it, since you will have to add a lot more mass to it, or make if much thicker (or both). I think maybe you mis-understood the comments here. Some folks use very short, cryptic posts. Then there are other folks like me, who like to wear out their keyboards and fingertips to provide long, detailed explanations. :)I was told 3 leaf is bad but then read by the same person who said that it was good for what I am doing.
That's correct. Partly. By itself no insulation has sound isolation properties. When used AS PART OF A SYSTEM it has amazing sound isolation properties. That is the issue. For example, hold up a 4 inch thick piece of rock wool in front of a speaker, and you'll see that it doesn't do a lot to stop the sound at all. But put that same piece of rock wool inside a correctly designed and built MSM wall and it will increase the isolation of that wall greatly, by as much as 16 dB. It does that for several reasons, but the two mains ones are that it drives down the resonant frequency of the MSM system, and it damps resonance inside of the cavity. When the rock wool is out in open air, it cannot do either of those. It has to be inside the wall to do that. By itself it does nothing. As part of the MSM system it is amazing. Like Andre said, acoustics is not intuitive, and not easy. You cannot look at individual materials and guess how they might act if you put them together. There are underlying principles at work, laws of physics and equations that dictate how things interact. You need to understand those principles yourself, or to trust people that do understand them. An MSM wall is a tuned system, specifically designed to resonate at a certain frequency that is way below the human hearing range, and to block all higher frequencies. If you do ANYTHING to that wall that changes the principle on which it is based, then you will INCREASE the resonant frequency, and it will no longer isolate well at the low end of the spectrum. That's what folks here are telling you. If you make a 2-leaf wall ("MSM") into a 3-leaf wall ("MSMSM"), then the laws of physics dictate that the resonant frequency of that system will be HIGHER, and it will isolate LESS in the low end. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not understand the principles of acoustics.I know I have read R13 has no sound proofing/isolation properties.
A waste of money: The equations of acoustics speak about "mass", not about how much you paid for that mass. Plain old ordinary drywall is good cheap mass. Soundboard is more expensive for the same amount of mass. The sound waves don't care how much you paid for the mass: all they see is mass. If you have LOTS of money, then buy lead sheeting! That has stacks of mass in a very thin dimension, and is great in acoustics, for some applications. But a thick sheet of drywall will isolate practically the same as a thin sheet of lead with the same mass, and only costs a small fraction of the price. Mass is mass: buy the cheapest you can get.I was going to use soundboard dyrwall.
You won't find that recommendation here. The slight gain you get from differing thicknesses of drywall is offset by the reduced mass, and you say you plan to use GG anyway, so its a moot point. Much better to go with two layers of 5/8 drywall for the greater mass, and GG for all the good stuff it does at the low end.I am unable to find the link but I did read that it is good to do different thickness of drywall because they will have different resonance frequency.
Good! That's a real expensive way of getting mass! It works, but you pay a LOT for it.The MLV is no longer in the picture.
No. 3-leaf can NEVER offer an improvement over two leaf, all other factors being equal. That would break the laws of physics. A 3-leaf system will ALWAYS have worse low frequency isolation than a 2-leaf system of the same total mass and thickness.I know that 2 leaf is better but I dont think 2 leaf would have been possible and 3 leaf still offers an improvement.
If you are building with double studs, the adding resilient channel will do nothing for you. The purpose of RC is to decouple the two leaves. You already have double studs, which accomplishes the same thing, and does it even better. Adding RC to a double stud wall will not gain you anything.We are trying to find any research on how having a resilient channel with Drywall+GG+Drywall will perform.
There is nothing wrong with using good acoustic foam... except that it costs more than other materials that can do more or less the same job for a fraction of the price! Acoustic foam works. But so does 703, or rock wool, or fiberglass insulation. Once again, sound waves don't care how much you paid for your absorption. Don't get me wrong: acoustic foam has its uses, but for the vast majority of those uses you can do the same job with other, much cheaper materials.I know that foam is not the best for acoustics.
Bad idea! Like Andre said: design it all completely, BEFORE you start building.I also kind of have to wait for the room to be built before I can get the acoustic material.
Why? Diffusers make no sense in a small room like that: Once again, if you build the room right then you won't need diffusers. You will have all the diffusion you need from the way the room is built. If you design and build it right...I plan to use diffusers,
The big difference in THIS forum is that nobody here is trying to sell you anything! Everyone here is trying to explain things to you, and help you, not sell you stuff. By very, very wary of web sites that try to sell you stuff, or that make magical claims for their products, without providing any actual acoustic data from testing their products in independent acoustic labs. (The GG web site is about the only exception: They actually do provide stacks of data on their products, most of it from testing done by independent labs, and their products do work as advertised.) But if you see fantastic claims for a product that sounds too good to be true, then they really are too good to be true. The laws of physics place limits on what can be done to sound waves by each type of material. any manufacturer who claims that his product performs BETTER than the laws of physics dictate, is a liar. Plain and simple. I'd suggest that you spend some time trying to grasp the underling principles of acoustics, and reading over this forum carefully, to get the idea of how things should be done. Then take some time to re-think your design and incorporate all of that. Only then will you be certain that what you are building will actually do what you want. - Stuart - (Edited to fix some stooopid shpellink miztakez!)You snake oil reference is good for how I feel after reading a lot of this stuff. Everyone company says something different and every person seems to think one idea works better then another.
Echo absorber is a type of insolation.What is an "echo absorber"? Do you mean some kind of treatment to deal specifically with flutter echo, or are you talking about overall room treatment, or are you talking about bass trapping? If you angle your walls and ceiling correctly, then flutter echo should not even be much of a problem.
We are waiting trying to firure out how to remove the three leaf. Will it still have the effect if we blast insolation into all cavities so there is not air space?Well then you'll end up withe something that does not accomplish what you are hoping it might. If you do it wrong, it will not work. Sorry to be blunt, but you cannot bypass the laws of physics by hoping they will go away for you: they wont. They apply to your room, just like any other room. If you don't take them into account, your room will not work. Period.
Yes echo fllutter caused by the room being 12x12 sorry forgot a word. Ringing sound made my the rooms design.Do you mean flutter echo? Or do you mean resonance? Or do you mean reverberation? That's three very different things.
Im sorry I dont remember saying I dont need isolation. I was meaning with the birds that I dont need STC rating in the high 60s, 50-55 would be fine.You can hear small birds from inside your room, and you want to record ADR in there, and you say you don't need isolation? Sorry, but I'm not understanding your build at all!!!! That makes no sense.
Yes need isolation. I am trying to say I dont need a room that you can put a car with 15 12in subs in and not hear anything outside the room. But will keep bird and other sounds like that out.well which is it? First you say you DON'T need isolation, now you say you DO need as much as possible? It's really hard to hit a moving target...
I said I would use what I have to. Was not saying I would use anything for sure yet. I think I may just delete my other post here and just stop now.Why? Diffusers make no sense in a small room like that: Once again, if you build the room right then you won't need diffusers. You will have all the diffusion you need from the way the room is built. If you design and build it right...
If you just blow insulation unto the cavity, you will still have an air gap since insulation is mostly air anyway. In order to turn the existing walls into only one leaf, you have to take off one of the two leaves. The normal way of doing that is to remove the drywall on the room side of the studs, so that you can see the framing inside the wall, and also see the leaf on the outside of the wall. Then you use the drywall that you just took off to "beef up" that outer leaf. You do that by cutting it to the shape and size so that it fits in between the studs, up against the existing outer leaf. You hold it in places with cleats, and you seal it all around the edges with caulk. Do 2 or 3 layers, depending on how much isolation you need. You didn't tell us how much isolation you need (you didn't give any numbers, in terms of decibels) so it's hard to guess how many layers you will need their to beef up your outer leaf. Two should most likely be enough, but you might need more.We are waiting trying to firure out how to remove the three leaf. Will it still have the effect if we blast insolation into all cavities so there is not air space?
That's not flutter echo. Flutter echo is due to walls being parallel, flat, rigid surfaces. The issue with the room being 12x12 is a problem with resonance, not flutter echo. Two different things. If your walls are parallel sheetrock then you would still have flutter echo between them even if your room was based on a perfect Sepmeyer ratio. And you could very well have a 12x12x12 room with no flutter echo at all, even though you'd have huge resonance issues in such a room. It seems to me that you are a bit confused about the terminology, but don't worry about that: I was pretty confused when I first came here too. 've learned a huge amount since then, but it takes time and diligence.Yes echo fllutter caused by the room being 12x12.
OK, that's a start! At least you have a goal in mind. STC 55 is certainly doable with what you have, if you do it right. But beware about STC ratings. STC does not take into account the frequencies where you will have the most problems. The STC rating system is designed mainly for speech, not for music. You can have a wall with a great STC rating that is no good for a studio. A better measure for studio walls is "TL", which means "transmission loss".I was meaning with the birds that I dont need STC rating in the high 60s, 50-55 would be fine.
What you are talking about, and what people are suggesting for you, will accomplish that, if you do it right. If you don't do it right, then chances are you will still hear the birds, and also the dogs, the rain, the wind, passing vehicles, the guy next door mowing his lawn, the refrigerator, the vacuum cleaner, the TV....Yes need isolation. I am trying to say I dont need a room that you can put a car with 15 12in subs in and not hear anything outside the room. But will keep bird and other sounds like that out.
Why would you do that? Don't get discouraged! You have some of the best guys in the industry here, and mountains of the best information in the industry, available all over this forum. Yes, I can understand that you you are pretty down, because you came here thinking you were doing fine with your build and discovered that you are not doing so fine, but you should be HAPPY about that, not discouraged! It means that you won't waste your money, and that your room actually will do what you want it to do, if you follow the advice that you find on this forum. Deleting your post and giving up would accomplish nothing. It would not make your room any better (which is your final goal here!). On the contrary, stopping now when you just learned several things that you are doing wrong would leave you PERMANENTLY discouraged, because if you just carry on with your build and ignore the advice you are getting here, then your build will be a failure, you will have wasted a lot of money to get there, and you won't even be able to record well in it! I'd really suggest that you slow down a bot with the build, and tale a while to read through this forum. Find a build thread from some member here who already did something similar to what you want to do, and read through that thread carefully. Learn about how an MSM wall actually works, learn about the terminology, learn about what "acoustic isolation" is and what "acoustic treatment" is, and how they are entirely different things, that need entirely different materials and methods. If you get stuck, or don't understand something, then ask. Then sit down and design your room, carefully, thinking about all the details, and post your design here, for the experts to look at and comment on. Then, and only then, should you start building. Do that and you'll end up with a great room. Ignore that, and you will spend a lot of money on a building a room that doesn't isolate well, and sounds lousy. - Stuart -I think I may just delete my other post here and just stop now.