All,
I am currently ripping up my carpet on the first floor and redoing the level with all 3/4" hardwood floors. I am trying to figure out if there is an alternative for some noise deadening that I can put under the wood besides SHEETBLOK? That stuff looks great but man at $399 to $500 for a 4 x 40' roll seems a bit steep when I am planning to do 2 large rooms. I am not sure hot good it is too as I cannot seem to find any reviews of the stuff.
Thoughts? Looking for a sublayer that is small that can help some? I know it will not be sound proof but something that works?
Thanks,
Doc
Sheetblok alternative?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13254.
I can't remember where i saw it, but somewhere in some forum, I read an interesting debate about an alternative to sheetblok, and the main suggestion was sheets of rolled roofing, aka saturated felt! You would have to look into it alot more but it might help when typing in searches etc. Mark.I am trying to figure out if there is an alternative for some noise deadening that I can put under the wood besides SHEETBLOK?
Saturated Felt is a Joke. LOL. Breaks down over time. Not good. There is something sold at home depot call GAF Tri-Ply rubber. BUT, Personally I have had GREAT success with sheets of 1/4" Neoprene. Cheaper and works. generally you can order them in 48" wide rolls.
Actually saturated felt is not a joke.
The largest issue is it is a petroleum saturated product which leads to all manner of building code breach and multiple insurance issues.
Too that end it is not recommended by anyone that I have read*, but it is not because it does not have isolation qualities.
It is basically a fire hazard which is why it can be placed on the roof and you can still get insurance.
The triply is about the same thing...different price, same effect,,, fire hazard.
But...many things will burn and many things will be used that would otherwise not be used when it comes to trying to develop an acoustic environment.
Concrete will burn given the proper ignition.
*: Excluding Phillip Newell.
And this statement disproves my point.. How??? The issues make it a "JOKE" for use.Actually saturated felt is not a joke. The largest issue is it is a petroleum saturated product which leads to all manner of building code breach and multiple insurance issues.
It doesn't even address you sir, but addresses the qualities of the product under discussion or rather brought up as a joke with no clarification.
Simply to say "because I said so" passed with my parents.
It seems that mass is what we all look for in these areas. Mass, decoupling, air and insulation, that is the thing! It isn't uncommon to use products like 1/2" to5/8" sheetrock, MDF and the like. The view here on mass loaded vinyl type products is, you can get better, cheaper.Looking for a sublayer that is small that can help some? I know it will not be sound proof but something that works?
"Saturated Felt is a Joke. LOL. Breaks down over time. Not good." Fact is, as long as this product does not get wet it will last virtually forever:) So that negates the "not good" part of the sentence, and the breaks down part as well. I appreciate your desire to want to be in the fray, but product description is important and should not be viewed using a 20 year old lens or with a cover of authority that does not exist outside of this forum.And this statement disproves my point.. How??? The issues make it a "JOKE" for use.Actually saturated felt is not a joke. The largest issue is it is a petroleum saturated product which leads to all manner of building code breach and multiple insurance issues.
http://www.studiospares.com/Sound-Insulation/Acoustistop-12Mx3M-Sound-Blocking-Sheet/invt/465070
UK supplier of studio kit.
there sheetbloc is cheaper but half the thickness of aurelex sheetbloc.
Not sure if there is a distributor in other countries.
http://www.academyfloor.com/index.php?m ... cts_id=144
I tear this up all the time on demo jobs on fully insured homes
Peace
Tom
I should probably run up there and type "if it is used on the wall" but I don't feel the need.
Yes sir it is not uncommon to use felt in a residential structure, wood against wood or wood against concrete/brick has been an accepted practice for some time now....on floors.
edit: OR on stucco or some other type of concrete facade...interior or exterior...jezz, the possibilities are really quite varied, but concrete/mortar will be a deciding factor in a vertical placement.
Cute.. LOL. Still, IMHO a waste of money. Feigned Authority has nothing to do with why I share what I share... Arrogance will clog your bagpipes though. Feel free to share density specs though....I appreciate your desire to want to be in the fray, but product description is important and should not be viewed using a 20 year old lens or with a cover of authority that does not exist outside of this forum.
If you are building a disposable studio, I could accept this statement, however, until man comes up with a way to eliminate all the moisture in air, the product will continue to be in a moist/wet environment, and will break down "over time" Moving along....Fact is, as long as this product does not get wet it will last virtually forever:) So that negates the "not good" part of the sentence, and the breaks down part as well.
Is this a matter of words? I know roofing as that black butimen foil for roofs http://classicroofingni.com/Assets/Phot ... %20003.JPG Is this what is also called saturated felt? If not what is the correct English word for this stuff? I really should like to know since I'm never sure if English guys understand what I'm referring to when I call this 'roofing'. Anyhow this stuff is good for sound isolation (where applicable) with the fire property limitations described by xSpace. A lot of pro dampening foils are made based on bitumen.......and the main suggestion was sheets of rolled roofing, aka saturated felt!
Hello Eric, English builders call that stuff 'Roofing Felt'. Hope that helps. JBIs this a matter of words? I know roofing as that black butimen foil for roofs http://classicroofingni.com/Assets/Phot ... %20003.JPG
Thanks Jan, And do Americans and Aussies also calling this 'Roofing Felt'?English builders call that stuff 'Roofing Felt'.
yes we do Eric
http://guardianplumbing.com.au/blog1/?p=745
Thanks John,
Giles, in this case I don't understand your resistance, except for the questionable fire properties.
If this wasn't a limitation, I should use or advice it a lot certainly for easy applications as rolling it out on lightweight floors.
It has much better internal damping properties than e.g. traditional neoprene. It's a relative cheap and dead mass.
The springiness of neoprene (elastic) is no advantage over the dead weight (viscous) of roofing, for this kind of application.
- Elastic: stores energy and gives it back
- Viscous: absorbs energy
Intel: What did you decide to do in the end?
Eric:
Where would you rate dry sand as either Elastic or Viscous? Xspace:The springiness of neoprene (elastic) is no advantage over the dead weight (viscous) of roofing, for this kind of application. Elastic: stores energy and gives it back Viscous: absorbs energy
Do you think sand has all of these qualities, particularly kiln-dried sand? JBIt seems that mass is what we all look for in these areas. Mass, decoupling, air and insulation, that is the thing!
Well, these are the four components of isolation but I am not aware of any one product that can give you all of them at one time, sand included.Xspace:... Mass, decoupling, air and insulation, that is the thing!
Viscous. Sand (fine and dry, it must flow) works as a damper. Not necessarily as efficient as other synthetic materials but it damps. Shearing forces come into play (are needed) which aren't that high for sand. But it has it advantage of its high cheap mass of course. Sand is easy to use on strong horizontal surfaces, but wall filling (I mean normal cavities) is an unpractical idea since the sideways forces of sand filling in function of time become extreme (you blow up your wall = get shape of a drop = a lot of reinforcement or strength must be provided to withstand these forces). That's different of course if you use it to fill hollow concrete blocks. And sand is no magic. It's (in most cases) still better and more logic just to use traditional double leaf systems with absorption (whether lightweight or heavy walls). There are cases where I used sand with success because it was either cheap good mass (+ additional damping) or in special industrial cases (damping the steel (3 to 6mm) of HUGE silencers by welding an additional steel casing around them filled with sand). At FN http://www.fnherstal.com/ I once improved shooting ranges by spreading a thick layer of sand on the concrete roofs (was the easiest and cheapest manner in that situation). Brian Ravnaas once tested/measured the effect (vibration levels) of filling speaker stands with sand (and with leadshot and a mix of both I believe, not sure of the latter) with good success. The difference between viscous and elastic is easy to check. Drop a piece of elastic material on the ground (e.g. a dried ball of silicone) and it jumps up again as a ball (silicone deforms, stores the energy and gives it back). It restores to its original shape. Drop a lump of children's modeling clay or plumbers caulk on the ground, it deforms and falls dead. It does NOT restore to it's original shape (deforms, but absorbs/dissipates this energy). Stylized: Green Glue is mainly viscous, Silicone is mainly elastic. Traditional neoprene rubber is mainly or big part elastic, if it shouldn't one couldn't use it as a spring for decoupling. It does NOT decouple by absorbing the vibration but by acting as a spring (which relates to the isolation caused by the phase relationship between both leafs or whatever you're decoupling). Roughly: the faster something restores to its original shape the more elastic. The more elastic a decoupler the higher the insulation in the proper targeted frequency range but the worse the dip in the resonant frequency range (and the "worse" part is worse and much more risky than the gain in the "higher" part) Edit: I accidentally stumbled upon this: Sounds logical. But haven't bought the article (yet). http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?0601879Eric:Where would you rate dry sand as either Elastic or Viscous?The springiness of neoprene (elastic) is no advantage over the dead weight (viscous) of roofing, for this kind of application. Elastic: stores energy and gives it back Viscous: absorbs energy
Eric, typically we use references to felt when it is in the 15 to 30 pound per square range (100 s.f.) - - and would refer to the link you posted as either single or double coverage roofing........ but well all understand that it is a bitumen. Here - roofing felt = roofing paper - which is placed before singling a roof with typical shingles or even with the roofing you linked to. RodThanks Jan, And do Americans and Aussies also calling this 'Roofing Felt'?English builders call that stuff 'Roofing Felt'.
Thanks Rod. The material I refer to is exactly that picture. Here they refer just to roofing. It has nothing to do with paper (there is reïnforcement in), and are standard between 3 and 5 mm. If I refer to roofing (representing that picture) then there can't be a misunderstanding? I can now call it roofing (which I'm familiar with), Roofing felt as Jan and John, or felt as you use (but which sounds rather general). Hence from now on I call it "Roofing Felt", is that a good compromise?Eric, typically we use references to felt when it is in the 15 to 30 pound per square range (100 s.f.) - - and would refer to the link you posted as either single or double coverage roofing........ but well all understand that it is a bitumen. Here - roofing felt = roofing paper - which is placed before singling a roof with typical shingles or even with the roofing you linked to.Thanks Jan, And do Americans and Aussies also calling this 'Roofing Felt'?English builders call that stuff 'Roofing Felt'.