Hi fellas: I've lurked, studied, read 'the' book, learned how to do sketchup (badly! but hopefully good enough) and now I feel ready to post. :D
At this point in reading this site I have developed a wicked case of concrete slab envy and wish I had one- unfortunately I'm stuck with having to build my studio on the first floor of my raised foundation house.
Studio Function: I will be using this space primarily for singing and playing electric guitar as loud as possible without disturbing the neighbors, whose house is 20 feet away. No live drums will be used in the space. It's a quiet neighborhood so I'm most concerned with isolating the sound coming out of the studio rather than any noise coming in.
Goal: I want to make the best possible go of isolating this space as much as possible even though I know it's kind of a crap shoot due to the raised foundation. I've already plugged the windows with drywall and that has gotten me a lot of the way there. I'd just like to maximize the isolation and do it as smart/economically as possible.
Challenges: 1) raised foundation. 2) Can't 'bulk up' underneath the floor between the joists because there's just so little room to crawl under the house with the materials and do that
Inner Room Dimensions: 13'3" Length 9'6" Width 8'4" Height
Wall Construction: The house was built in 1939 and has 2x4 framing with the original 1939 era 5/8" gypsum on either side of the frame
Floor Construction: The layers are from top to bottom as follows as best I can tell from crawling around in the dirt and trying to decipher the tattered original plans I found hidden in a wall when I demoed the kitchen:
1/2" hard wood
3/4" plywood
3/4" sub floor
2x6 joists 16" o.c.
4x6 girders 7'0" o.c.
4x4 vertical posts (piers?) every 5'
these posts go into concrete piers that sit in the ground
Budget: I can spend $3k USD. Would like to spend a whole lot less. I'm happy to hire a structural engineer to tell me the weight limits of my joists. (anyone know of one in Southern California who you can recommend?)
I've attached a skp. file with the best rendering of the space I could figure out how to do. Hope it helps.
I've gotten many ideas from the book and this site regarding the walls & ceiling so my uncertainty is mostly concerned with how to deal with the floor. ie: should I just make the existing floor as massive as safely possible? Perhaps I should treat the floor as if it were a wall on its side- with one leaf being the existing hardwood&subfloor- building a frame over that and making the second leaf another sandwich of ply/mdf/ply? Or....?
Thanks!
Eric in Burbank, CAlifornia
New Studio: making the best of an elevated foundation..help!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13217.
"Perhaps I should treat the floor as if it were a wall on its side- with one leaf being the existing hardwood&subfloor- building a frame over that and making the second leaf another sandwich of ply/mdf/ply? Or....?"
One leaf being the existing floor and one being the earth or whatever it is below the floor after the air.
Any additiional mass would be better placed directly on top of the floor, no framing.
But you mentioned that this is a 2" X 4" floor and I would have to wonder if you can actually install additional mass on this thin framing member without added support and/or additional framing of a larger size.
One leaf being the existing floor and one being the earth or whatever it is below the floor after the air. Any additiional mass would be better placed directly on top of the floor, no framing. Got it. But you mentioned that this is a 2" X 4" floor and I would have to wonder if you can actually install additional mass on this thin framing member without added support and/or additional framing of a larger size. My bad. The floor is 2"x6" (16" o.c.) over 4"x6" (7' 0" o.c.) I've changed the info in the original post, Thanks. So my best bet for the floor is to build it up as much as safely possible, weight-wise? If so, what would be the best method in my construction situation?
hope it's not too early to... bump!
The skinny on this is that a 2 X 6 joist can only handle so much load. Hiring someone to tell you that will be throwing a handful of your start up money out the window.
Most will ask you what kind of actual sound levels are you trying to keep your neighbors from hearing.
A typical room like yours would use resilient channel, clips and hat track, double sheetrock panels etc., to achieve isolation. Removing interior wall panels is sometime part of the process to add mass towards the exterior of the wall.
But this is not a recommendation.
I do not know anything about this room from the words typed...every picture tells a story:)
Thanks, x.
I attached a skp. file. Should i do a drawing and post that?
Gotcha about the actual sound levels. I'll do a test with my radio shack unit.
Pictures give a better impression of what is actually in a room, sketchup is for designing, for me personally.
Pictures, as requested. 3 views of same room.
1) View from doorway:
External image, not preserved — original: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m176/tiltrite/studio-merge-1.jpg
2) View from corner
External image, not preserved — original: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m176/tiltrite/studio-merge-2.jpg
3) view from corner:
External image, not preserved — original: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m176/tiltrite/studio-merge-3.jpg
Got my Radio Shack sound meter and measured between 62-66 dB at the property line with my guitar going full tilt through a 2x12 speaker cab.
was playing as loud as I ever would in this situation: a measured 112-114 dB with the meter 3 feet from the speaker cabinet.
A pedestrian walking in front of my house would hear the sound clearly, but I doubt the neighbors next to my house could hear anything inside their house. I do not know what the legally acceptable dB level at the property line is; Nevertheless I want to be conservative and not have to worry about annoying the neighbors or giving anyone an excuse to make a 911 call.
I suppose I'll just have to beef up the inner leaves of the existing room as much as I can and call it good. Good enough, anyway! I'll have to live with the results of this. Any further sound reduction will have to be done at the amp. :x
So the latest plan is to:
1)Put down a layer or two of ply on the floor. [over some yoga mats- thanks John S.!]
2) Put a single layer of rock on the walls and cieling. Green Glue behind the new layers and acoustic caulk on the seams. Re-do the window plugs according to M/A/M. Make a beefy door. Isolation=Done.
I made a beefy door for an amp closet before. MDF, Plywood, ordinary caulk and ordinary weatherstripping. Worked very well, actually. Now that I know about green glue, acoustic caulk, and type 'k' gasket I can make an even better one. :D
External image, not preserved — original: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m176/tiltrite/door-2.jpg
Detail:
External image, not preserved — original: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m176/tiltrite/door-1.jpg
I'd like to revisit this for a moment. I see your point that the earth under the floor is the second leaf. However, the airspace between the floor and the ground is not sealed in any fashion. Does that negate the airspace function as a spring in the M/A/M equation and perhaps warrant the use of the 'wall on its side as a floor' method after all? BTW: my bad the floor framing is 2"x6 16" O.C. not 2"x4". I've corrected it in the original post. Thank you!"Perhaps I should treat the floor as if it were a wall on its side- with one leaf being the existing hardwood&subfloor- building a frame over that and making the second leaf another sandwich of ply/mdf/ply? Or....?" One leaf being the existing floor and one being the earth or whatever it is below the floor after the air. Any additiional mass would be better placed directly on top of the floor, no framing. But you mentioned that this is a 2" X 4" floor and I would have to wonder if you can actually install additional mass on this thin framing member without added support and/or additional framing of a larger size.
Hi Tiltrite,
I'm following this thread as I'm pretty much in the same position as you, although my renovation is in my basement, my space is too small to build out the walls in the m-a-m fashion, so I'm following Jeff Cooper's advice (from his book) and will eventually build out the walls similar to what you have suggested. Though he mentions furring strips with insulation between, then sheetrocking. I'll follow your build to see what sort of isolation you come up with. Best of luck with your project! -DougI suppose I'll just have to beef up the inner leaves of the existing room as much as I can and call it good. Good enough, anyway! I'll have to live with the results of this. Any further sound reduction will have to be done at the amp.
Hi Doug, That's funny: I have the cooper book too and just last night re-read the bit about the furring strips with insulation between. Is that a legit idea or is it better to just add the sheetrock? From what I keep reading here, it seems that the furring strips would create a 3rd leaf. Not sure about this so would like to know more. Best with your project, too!Hi Tiltrite,I'm following this thread as I'm pretty much in the same position as you, although my renovation is in my basement, my space is too small to build out the walls in the m-a-m fashion, so I'm following Jeff Cooper's advice (from his book) and will eventually build out the walls similar to what you have suggested. Though he mentions furring strips with insulation between, then sheetrocking. I'll follow your build to see what sort of isolation you come up with. Best of luck with your project! -DougI suppose I'll just have to beef up the inner leaves of the existing room as much as I can and call it good. Good enough, anyway! I'll have to live with the results of this. Any further sound reduction will have to be done at the amp.
Aw geez, never considered the 3rd leaf thing. Perhaps some expert can answer that?
Thank you! -DougBest with your project, too!
As I understand it, the air spring will still perform but not at the same as if the air were sealed. So adding another frame and additional mass creates a three leaf. At least one of the leaves you are building has to be more dense then the earth to over come the 3 leaf effect. And you are adding to the flanking of this wooden structure by adding additional framed mass which will allow sound to vibrate directly into you floor but with a better connection.I'd like to revisit this for a moment. I see your point that the earth under the floor is the second leaf. However, the airspace between the floor and the ground is not sealed in any fashion. Does that negate the airspace function as a spring in the M/A/M equation and perhaps warrant the use of the 'wall on its side as a floor' method after all? BTW: my bad the floor framing is 2"x6 16" O.C. not 2"x4". I've corrected it in the original post. Thank you!