Hi all, I've been lurking here for years, and am only now looking to pull my rehearsal studio design together. This has been a great place to get ideas (usually way to many ideas, actually :)).
I’m the music director at our church, and am looking to build a rehearsal studio space with a few goals:
1. Have a quiet place to work out arrangements, learn songs etc.
2. Have a place for the rest of our band (minus drums) to come over and rehearse
3. Be able to record individual instruments, small groups (no drums), including electric guitars
4. Have a good room for mixing down songs and audio for video
5. Record voice-overs for eLearning development (10% of the time)
Our musical styles are quite broad – from pop/rock to black gospel.
I’d estimate our volumes to peak at 90-95db.
The room I have to work with is an attached garage that’s already been converted into a large playroom. The original garage was about 20’x20’, and the finished room is 19’ wide, 19.5’ deep and 8’ high. The floor is a cement slab, with a subfloor on top made of 2x4 or 2x6, with a 3/8” or so chipboard on top (I’ll need to tear up a piece of the subfloor to get more detail than that). It has gyprock walls on all 4 walls. It also has a door to the outside at the back of the room, and a door straight across the room to the interior of the house. Above the ceiling are rafters and the roof. The rafters also span a living room which sits behind the current room. There are currently two windows at the front of the room. I will be replacing them with better ones, and/or replacing them all together with an outside door (with a window in it). What I cannot do is remove the windows altogether and close the whole front in.
Another constraint I have to work around is that I need a way to go from the outside to the inside of the main house thru this room. My current thought is building essentially a hallway to connect the two doors, with a closet for coats, etc. Because there the door into the main house is 8 inches higher than the floor in the studio room, I'm planning on building a floor in the hallway that's 4 inches or so higher so you will take one step down into the studio, and one step up into the main house.
Finally, I also need to make room in here for a full size upright piano.
I’m trying to adopt the Wes Lachot design, as it seems to most closely suit my design goal. Unfortunately, I don’t have the length to do a 21’ long room, and I’m reluctant to lose the height by shrinking the dimensions all around.
So here’s my question. Since I have to build a wall to frame in a hallway, I’m planning on building that wall for isolation. I may also consider rebuilding the other walls for isolation as well. I also plan on splaying the walls 6 degrees on each side. To pick the dimensions for my room, I took one of the preferred ratios of 1:1.5:2.1, and averaged the width over the run of the splay. This works out to 8 feet high, by an average of 12 feet wide (10 feet at the narrow end and 14 feet at the long end) and 17 feet long. I think this should give me a room that sounds reasonably good naturally, and could be improved with a minimum of fuss. Is my thinking straight, or are there obvious flaws or other input I should consider?
FYI, I’ve attached a sketchup file of the proposed studio space. My apologies in advance for the poor quality. I’m not the best at using it.
Budget - I'm looking at around $4k US.
Rehearsal studio design help
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13165.
Some more info. The house is a two-story house, with an attached garage (that's been converted) and another attached garage that will remain a garage. Here's the idea.
Hi all,
I bought Rod's book, and have been banging thru it for the last few weeks. One of his suggestions, as you all know, is to document your current room "as-is". So I did that, and here is a pic of the room, with descriptions of the as-is state.
So with that pic in mind, I played out another design option. Essentially going with a rectangular room, using some optimal room dimensions from Rod's book (1:1.5:2.1) given me a volume of 1,934 cubic feet. To do it, and have adequate space for a hallway and storage for gear and coats, I designed the long walls using inside-out construction that could be completely, or partially, used for broadband absorption.
Here's the top view of the new proposed layout. FYI, I will be using room-in-the-room building method, with inside-out walls on the two long walls.
And here's a side view of the entrance to the room, with some nominal indications for closet space, counters and a 36" door.
So, here's some questions . . .
I plan on using the hallway as a cold room by putting a thru-wall a/c unit over the door to the garage. I'll then using a fan to pull this air up into the attic via ductwork and into the studio space via ceiling vents of some type. I'll also use a separate set of ducts in the ceiling to exhaust the studio air into the hallway. I plan on using a fan for pushing the air in, but can I rely on air pressure to handle the exhaust side? Any concerns with having the a/c unit pulling air from the garage.
I already have hardwood bought, and I'd like to use it. Based on some research I did, it looks like I can put vapor barrier on the cement slab (which is at grade level), cover it with 3/4" exterior grade plywood using concrete screws, and then nailing my hardwood to it. Does that make sense? BTW, I plan on attaching the wall bottom plates right on the slab.
That's all the questions for now. I'll have more later I'm sure :)
"Based on some research I did, it looks like I can put vapor barrier on the cement slab (which is at grade level), "
You should determine if a vapor barrier exists under the slab. Installing another one over the top, if there is an existing one below the slab, would create a dual barrier.
Never thought of checking for vapor barrier under the slab. I assume I can just dig up some of the lawn and look for it? Is there a better spot to check - middle of slab, in a corner?
I guess the easiest way is to ask yourself if you remember the slab ever having moisture or sweating due to environmental conditions.
If it has sweated or you have had issues keeping a flooring glued down before, it has no vapor barrier. (assumes enclosed and not open to the outside elements)
If you do not recall it ever sweating then you most likely do have one installed and wouldn't help anything by adding another.
Out of curiousity, would it be considered detrimental to seal the top of a concrete slab that already has a vapor barrier underneath? Or just pointless?If you do not recall it ever sweating then you most likely do have one installed and wouldn't help anything by adding another.
In a controlled environment sealing is done for many reasons on a properly poured and prepared slab. If the slab has any type of hydrostatic pressure issues then sealing it would only prolong the inevitable which could be a serious issue by the time you were actually able to detect it.
The subfloor that's on the slab was there before I bought the house. I'll need to check the slab once I do the demolishing in preparation for the build.
Next question . . . I’m planning on building my long walls inside out so I can use the wall cavities for acoustic treatment (see the green walls in the diagram I posted earlier). However, I’m concerned that if I fill all the wall cavities with acoustic treatment, I may over deaden my room. The long walls represent 31% of the surface area of the room alone, and that doesn’t take into account bass trapping, ceiling clouds, etc. Rod’s book recommends around 25% treatment as a generic rule, but it looks like I may get as high as 40%. Yikes!
So . . . the question is if I only fill some of the wall cavities with treatment, how do I finish the non-treated cavities? Or, a broader question is, what kind of finishing options have people used to finish off inside-out walls? I’ve seen the slat absorber approach, and having cloth stapled to the walls. Are there other options? I’m assuming I don’t want to put gyproc on part of the walls because it would create a three leaf wall for that section.
Thanks everyone for the feedback to date.
If you are removing the existing floor then you can tell when you do this. If glue/mastic was used to secure the laminate flooring it may have begun to break down in noticeable places. Theses areas will produce a noted hollow sound when walked across with hard sole shoes< if the area in question has become loose enough.
It is common practice to install visquen plastic as a barrier underneath the area that a concrete slab is to be poured, so you very well do have this already installed. It would not benefit you in any way to install another, especially if holes will be made in it by driving or shooting nails into it thereby piercing a very expensive do nothing ;)
Thanks xspace. I'll just run with the plywood and hardwood then and save myself some money.
Oh, and another question if I could. I think understand the MSM wall principle, and I am planning a double wall system with separate top and bottom plates (truly double wall). I'll be putting 2 layers of gyproc on the outside of each wall with one exception. For the long walls, I'll be putting 2 layers of gyproc on the inside of the walls. As I understand MSM, the system's efficiencies is based on a combination of the amount of mass on each side, and the spring effect of the air gap. My question is this - is there a recommended width for the air gap in order to match my 2-layer gyproc mass? I've re-read Rod's book section on this, and searched for info here as well, but have yet to find any suggestions around optimal air gap.
So, to re-cap, my two current questions are:
1. Any suggestions on ways to finish the inside-out walls so I'm not over-absorbing them and making a dead room, and
2. Is there a recommended air gap width for a double-wall with 2 layers of gyproc on each side?
Going by what I've read and seen so far on these forums and elsewhere, a big advantage of the 'inside out' wall construction is that you can go ahead and proceed as planned with filling between the studs on the inside of the inside-out walls (first caulking / sealing between the studs and drywall all the way around, so each rectangle formed by the studs and drywall makes five walls of an air-tight, six-sided 'box') with rigid fiberglass or mineral wool material, and then you can apply different 'faces' to different segments. It's an inherently 'modular' approach: each sealed rectangular 'cell' formed by the studs/drywall/insulation panels/fabric can be turned into a different type of 'panel' depending on how you decide to finish the 'front' (facing the inside the room) side - breathable fabric, slats, 1/4" plywood 'membrane', perforated panel, etc. would each create a different type / method of treatment - instead of having treatment 'panels' on the wall, they're in the wall.1. Any suggestions on ways to finish the inside-out walls so I'm not over-absorbing them and making a dead room...?
Wouldn't that make the hallway a 'warm room'? :mrgreen: I wonder if it might not be better to change the order around... Air conditioned air goes in to the hallway (making the hall the 'cold room') A passive (no fan) duct goes from the hallway to the studio room An 'active' (with fan) duct blows exhaust air from the studio room to the outdoors My guess is that you might hear less 'fan' in the studio from a fan 'sucking out' than you would from a fan 'blowing in' (?). Potential problems I can think of with the garage as the source of the incoming air would be 1) a car, furnace, or anything else in the garage emitting carbon monoxide or other nasties and deadlies, which are getting pumped into the studio 2) fibers or particles from exposed, unfaced insulation, asbestos, sawdust if you do woodworking in the garage, etc. getting blown into the studio - is the garage 'finished' with drywall? 3) if the garage is dusty, etc., same issue 4) if it already gets pretty hot and/or humid in the garage, it could put extra strain on the system.I plan on using the hallway as a cold room by putting a thru-wall a/c unit over the door to the garage. I'll then using a fan to pull this air up into the attic via ductwork and into the studio space via ceiling vents of some type. I'll also use a separate set of ducts in the ceiling to exhaust the studio air into the hallway. I plan on using a fan for pushing the air in, but can I rely on air pressure to handle the exhaust side? Any concerns with having the a/c unit pulling air from the garage.
I like the idea of using a fan to exhaust the studio - I can see where that might be quieter. I'm wondering about exhausting directly to the outside, though. Wouldn't that create an under-pressured (?) hallway since I'm not returning air to the hallway as I suck it out? Also, my rationale is that by returning the air to the hallway from the studio, I could use the temp and humidity controls to control the air conditioner and regulate the hallway, and by extension, the studio as well. If I exhaust to the outside, I'd need a separate system to do this. Does my rationale hold up?Wouldn't that make the hallway a 'warm room'? :mrgreen: I wonder if it might not be better to change the order around... Air conditioned air goes in to the hallway (making the hall the 'cold room') A passive (no fan) duct goes from the hallway to the studio room An 'active' (with fan) duct blows exhaust air from the studio room to the outdoors My guess is that you might hear less 'fan' in the studio from a fan 'sucking out' than you would from a fan 'blowing in' (?). Potential problems I can think of with the garage as the source of the incoming air would be 1) a car, furnace, or anything else in the garage emitting carbon monoxide or other nasties and deadlies, which are getting pumped into the studio 2) fibers or particles from exposed, unfaced insulation, asbestos, sawdust if you do woodworking in the garage, etc. getting blown into the studio - is the garage 'finished' with drywall? 3) if the garage is dusty, etc., same issue 4) if it already gets pretty hot and/or humid in the garage, it could put extra strain on the system.I plan on using the hallway as a cold room by putting a thru-wall a/c unit over the door to the garage. I'll then using a fan to pull this air up into the attic via ductwork and into the studio space via ceiling vents of some type. I'll also use a separate set of ducts in the ceiling to exhaust the studio air into the hallway. I plan on using a fan for pushing the air in, but can I rely on air pressure to handle the exhaust side? Any concerns with having the a/c unit pulling air from the garage.
1) The fan blowing out of the studio would create lower air pressure in the studio. This would cause air to be sucked in to the studio from the hallway, which would in turn suck air in from the air conditioner in the garage (or you could have a fan of equal strength blowing the conditioned air into the hallway so you have a 'push' at the beginning and an equal 'pull' at the end). 2) You'd either have air from the hall going in to the studio, or air from the studio going in to the hall, so you can probably get away with that either way. That plan appeals to me as having the controls in the hallway instead of the studio would mean fewer holes punched through the studio walls = good.I like the idea of using a fan to exhaust the studio - I can see where that might be quieter. I'm wondering about exhausting directly to the outside, though. Wouldn't that create an under-pressured (?) hallway since I'm not returning air to the hallway as I suck it out? Also, my rationale is that by returning the air to the hallway from the studio, I could use the temp and humidity controls to control the air conditioner and regulate the hallway, and by extension, the studio as well. If I exhaust to the outside, I'd need a separate system to do this. Does my rationale hold up?
"I plan on using the hallway as a cold room by putting a thru-wall a/c unit over the door to the garage. I'll then using a fan to pull this air up into the attic via ductwork and into the studio space via ceiling vents of some type. I'll also use a separate set of ducts in the ceiling to exhaust the studio air into the hallway."
If you think this through you may see the holes in your logic.
You will be recirculating "used" air if it is coming from the hallway side and bad air if it is coming from the garage side.
So, I'm not going to recirculate the used hallway air, but I was planning on pulling air from the garage side. I felt the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning or other bad air is low, especially since my garage is unfinished and as leaky as a sieve :). The other thing is that in the winter, I'll also need to recirculate air in the studio, and I won't want to bring it directly in from outside as it'll be freezing. I'd rather keep exchanging the air with the hallway, and leave a door open from the house to the hallway to allow fresh, heated air in."I plan on using the hallway as a cold room by putting a thru-wall a/c unit over the door to the garage. I'll then using a fan to pull this air up into the attic via ductwork and into the studio space via ceiling vents of some type. I'll also use a separate set of ducts in the ceiling to exhaust the studio air into the hallway." If you think this through you may see the holes in your logic. You will be recirculating "used" air if it is coming from the hallway side and bad air if it is coming from the garage side.
I've gotten some ideas on question 1 (how to treat inside out walls), but no takers on question 2. Anyone got any suggestions on recommended air gap width for a double-wall with 2 layers of gyproc on each side? Related to that question, does air gap include the space taken by insulation? Take for example, a gap of 5" between two gyproc walls that contains 4" of insulation (2" on each side). Do you consider it an air gap of 1", or an air gap of 5" which happens to have insulation in part of it?Oh, and another question if I could. I think understand the MSM wall principle, and I am planning a double wall system with separate top and bottom plates (truly double wall). I'll be putting 2 layers of gyproc on the outside of each wall with one exception. For the long walls, I'll be putting 2 layers of gyproc on the inside of the walls. As I understand MSM, the system's efficiencies is based on a combination of the amount of mass on each side, and the spring effect of the air gap. My question is this - is there a recommended width for the air gap in order to match my 2-layer gyproc mass? I've re-read Rod's book section on this, and searched for info here as well, but have yet to find any suggestions around optimal air gap. So, to re-cap, my two current questions are: 1. Any suggestions on ways to finish the inside-out walls so I'm not over-absorbing them and making a dead room, and 2. Is there a recommended air gap width for a double-wall with 2 layers of gyproc on each side?
Minimum of 1 inch between framing members. Since the insulation is included as part of the "air", your actual air cavity is measured from back of drywall on the one wall to the back of the drywall on the opposing wall. A 1 inch gap with nominal 3-1/2" studs on a double framed wall gives you an 8 inch air space.Anyone got any suggestions on recommended air gap width for a double-wall with 2 layers of gyproc on each side? Related to that question, does air gap include the space taken by insulation? Take for example, a gap of 5" between two gyproc walls that contains 4" of insulation (2" on each side). Do you consider it an air gap of 1", or an air gap of 5" which happens to have insulation in part of it?
Thanks everyone for your feedback, esp xspace who has been generous with his advice.
No other questions at the moment. I'll be spending some time now building some wall and ceiling drawings outlining specific construction details, mostly to ensure I completely think thru the process. I'll also be starting a building materials list so I can pull a budget together. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions as I progress.
Hi all, quick question on sound absorption coefficients. I can't find any retailer of owens corning 703 in my area. However, I can get this product. It's a 2" inch thick 3lbs/ft3 rigid fiberglass insulation made by Ottawa Fibre. It looks similar to the 703 product. For comparison purposes, I list the sound absorption coefficients for both products below.
703: .17 (125Hz), .86 (250Hz), 1.14 (500Hz), 1.07 (1000Hz), 1.02 (2000Hz), .98 (4000Hz), 1.00 (NRC)
Ottawa Fibre: .21 (125Hz), .76 (250Hz), 1.16 (500Hz), 1.15 (1000Hz), 1.09 (2000Hz), 1.09 (4000Hz), 1.05 (NRC)
Looks close enough to me. Any comments.
Todd
Sorry to interrupt here but I'd like to know if/how the comment above applies to inside-out walls. I mean, would you still want the 1 inch between framing members or would you be going for the 8 inch air gap or something in between? If I'm thinking it through correctly 1 inch between framing members would not be possible when 1 of the walls is inside-out. Assuming you had 2 layers of 5/8 drywall on the inside-out wall you'd need more than 1 inch between framing members, right? So what is the recommendation on this? This is something about inside-outs walls that I've yet to grasp. Everyone sings the praises of them and they seem to be the way to go on my project but am I wrong that you are gaining interior space at the expense of losing isolation due to the smaller air gap between leaves?Minimum of 1 inch between framing members. Since the insulation is included as part of the "air", your actual air cavity is measured from back of drywall on the one wall to the back of the drywall on the opposing wall. A 1 inch gap with nominal 3-1/2" studs on a double framed wall gives you an 8 inch air space.
That is it. Gaining interior floor space at the expense of loss of isolation in the lower frequencies. The 1 inch is just a reference...it references the fact that you do not want the framing members of your double wall system to contact each other in any way. So people use 1 inch....but 1/4 of an inch is the same thing when keeping the framing decoupled is in question. The air of your wall is measured from the one hard boundary to the next hard boundary. The space between "sheetrock and sheetrock" or "block wall and sheetrock", etc. etc. Does that help in any way?This is something about inside-outs walls that I've yet to grasp. Everyone sings the praises of them and they seem to be the way to go on my project but am I wrong that you are gaining interior space at the expense of losing isolation due to the smaller air gap between leaves?