I'm a MVO, I'm building a studio, and I know not a lot.

Hi everyone. First I want to thank all participating here, I have gathered a lot of very precious info and am very grateful to those sharing their knowledge. I have read many a thread which contained replies to questions I had, and I apologise in advance if the questions in this post already have answers somewhere, I couldn't find them! But first let me introduce myself - my name is Pierre, I am French but have lived in London for the last 15 years, I spend my life in recording studios but I am ignorant of all things acoustic. In other words, I am a voiceover artist - and as I'm of the male variety that makes me a male voiceover artist, otherwise known as MVO (in case you wondered what it meant in the title of this post!) We have now just moved to the South West of France, to a barn in the middle of the fields we bought which is being renovated, and I will have my own recording studio there. I intend to use it not only to record my own sessions for my clients but also to hire it out to clients wanting it either to voice or to mix, for both the VO and the music markets (we will be not far from a big city called Toulouse and the music scene is quite big in the South West). I gathered information from Rod Gervais's book (absolutely invaluable practical info, tips and advice in it), my sound engineers friends, as well as observing how the studios are designed. The construction bit is not difficult for me (I used to be a builder/carpenter in a previous life) but getting the acoustics right is. Very. I have drawn a plan (below) based on the info gathered and would love nothing better than to be told that I am an ignorant phillistine and that this shouldn't be done like this but like that, that this is so wrong but it would be so right like that, etc. For the HVAC I was thinking of using this Owens Corning product http://www.owenscorning.eu/en/products/ ... board.aspx but it looks like it's not possible to bend it at corners and I'm worried about 90 degree corners. Should I? Is there a good alternative? I was thinking of splitting it so that there are two distinct circuits and that there's no communication between control room and booth, is it the way it's done? I posted on the other forum a while ago, and since then have taken the advice given there and by other experts I know. So, I have amended the plans accordingly. The screed on top of Regupol is already in place. The doors are built - each is 150kg. And now, I have the butterflies as the walls are going up very soon and the window is about to be built. So if you have any comments / tips / remarks / critics of any kind the time is now! Beside freaking out I also have specific questions: - Density of fiberglass/rockwool for inside rooms, between walls and fabric: 703 or 705 - I was planning to alternate pannels with and without FRK for the rooms to be not too bright but not too dead either, is it a good idea? - Density of fiberglass/rockwool for inside walls: 703 or 705 - FRK or not? Someone here posted this link about comparison between different materials for absorbtion: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm I've read conflicting information re. what would the best be, some advocating OC 705 FRK while others say 703 all the way and it would seam that Rockwool is better than both. Any opinions? - Bass traps: stacked up triangles of rockwool / fiberglass, what I've seen described as superchunks (which density?) - or bass trap panels as per plan - or acoustic hangers? - I've never seen anything about bass traps on corners between floor and walls - is it because it's not necessary? Over the mixing desk and client listening area, should it be diffusers or broadband absorbers? - Would anyone know of a good and affordable system for stretching fabric on the wall? I have attached the plans of the studio and the design of the window and the doors. If you think they're any good please feel free to use them for your build, if you think they're no good please do tell me, thanks in advance for your much valued input!

and an updated plan taking into account a design feature doubling as traps (OK, they're more a design feature than traps but they're very nice and I got them at a price you cannot say no to. They trap from 500 hz, and there's plenty of bass trap at the rear anyway). Here they are - no it's not my studio, my studio doesn't have walls yet - but it will be the exact same effect, with the same number arranged the same same colour same everything (beside the bass traps at the corners of mine I've also included cloud panels over mixing and client areas (I labelled them as diffusers before, and didn't place them correctly, and Andre is right indeed, design is tantamount - doing the plans right to the most minute detail will save megabucks during construction - or bucks, at least) I also have bass traps in the vocal booth, do you guys think it's overkill? Again, thanks for reading (and if I've placed this thread in the wrong forum or did something else wrong without realising it, preventing you guys from replying please do let me know thanks) :|

Is it something I said? Is it because it's in the wrong forum? Am I the last person alive on the planet? Silence on my thread is kinda deafening... If you think design is utter crap and are not sure how you should say this, don't wear gloves I can handle it! :snack:

Okay, I'll have a go.. tho I hate long posts.. :mrgreen:

TheFrenchVoice wrote:

I have drawn a plan (below) based on the info gathered and would love nothing better than to be told that I am an ignorant phillistine and that this shouldn't be done like this but like that, that this is so wrong but it would be so right like that, etc.

Looks cool. could you just post the CR floorplan? (cut it from the pix, blow it up to 700x700pix max)

For the HVAC I was thinking of using this Owens Corning product http://www.owenscorning.eu/en/products/ ... board.aspx but it looks like it's not possible to bend it at corners and I'm worried about 90 degree corners. Should I? Is there a good alternative? I was thinking of splitting it so that there are two distinct circuits and that there's no communication between control room and booth, is it the way it's done?

You can box it in yourself, use mass like GB or MDF. It'll save you a lot of trouble fitting those pre-fab boards.. "splitting" is a good idea. just draw a plan and post it here. Check Rod's book for some good advice on where to place your HVAC stuff.

I posted on the other forum a while ago, and since then have taken the advice given there and by other experts I know. So, I have amended the plans accordingly. The screed on top of Regupol is already in place. The doors are built - each is 150kg. And now, I have the butterflies as the walls are going up very soon and the window is about to be built. So if you have any comments / tips / remarks / critics of any kind the time is now!

If you're not sure, postpone the built. Get the design ready and "aproved". When you're confertable with it, start the actual built :)

- Density of fiberglass/rockwool for inside rooms, between walls and fabric: 703 or 705 - I was planning to alternate pannels with and without FRK for the rooms to be not too bright but not too dead either, is it a good idea?

sure, why not. I haven't seen your acoustic plan yet, tho. Worry about that later ;)

- Density of fiberglass/rockwool for inside walls: 703 or 705 - FRK or not?

get the cheapest you can get, it'll do the job. Rod has some comments about that too in his book ;)

Someone here posted this link about comparison between different materials for absorbtion: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm I've read conflicting information re. what would the best be, some advocating OC 705 FRK while others say 703 all the way and it would seam that Rockwool is better than both. Any opinions?

For inside walls, forget about it and get just the cheapest wool. For acoustics, you can do either or both. different sheets have different absorption co. But, as always, use the standard 48kg/m3 stuff. It'll do the job just fine. No need to get into "acoustic" wool or anything.. Read the "acoustics" forum part here and you'll find your way.

- Bass traps: stacked up triangles of rockwool / fiberglass, what I've seen described as superchunks (which density?) - or bass trap panels as per plan - or acoustic hangers?

48kg/m3 again.. superchunks, hangers.. what ever you like. John's into hangers and slats, I'm into superchunks. Ethan is into resonating panels.. take a pick. They all do a good job. I prefer corner-filled traps (aka superchunks) cuz of the volume of wool (deeper traps, lower absorption)

- I've never seen anything about bass traps on corners between floor and walls - is it because it's not necessary?

It's because they take up precious space, but it sure works! (it's just another corner)

Over the mixing desk and client listening area, should it be diffusers or broadband absorbers?

Diffusers don't work well in a small room. Your pix are to fuzzy/small to tell me anything about dimensions.. Absorption is always good. Start with that.

- Would anyone know of a good and affordable system for stretching fabric on the wall?

your hands and skills?

Ro wrote:

Okay, I'll have a go.. tho I hate long posts.. :mrgreen:

TheFrenchVoice wrote:

I have drawn a plan (below) based on the info gathered and would love nothing better than to be told that I am an ignorant phillistine and that this shouldn't be done like this but like that, that this is so wrong but it would be so right like that, etc.

Ro wrote:

Looks cool. could you just post the CR floorplan? (cut it from the pix, blow it up to 700x700pix max)

Hi Ro, well thanks for replying to my post although you hate long ones, that's very kind of you sir! I've uploaded a large version of the plans HERE, hopefully it's clearer.

For the HVAC I was thinking of using this Owens Corning product http://www.owenscorning.eu/en/products/ ... board.aspx but it looks like it's not possible to bend it at corners and I'm worried about 90 degree corners. Should I? Is there a good alternative? I was thinking of splitting it so that there are two distinct circuits and that there's no communication between control room and booth, is it the way it's done?

Ro wrote:

You can box it in yourself, use mass like GB or MDF. It'll save you a lot of trouble fitting those pre-fab boards.. "splitting" is a good idea. just draw a plan and post it here. Check Rod's book for some good advice on where to place your HVAC stuff.

I've bought and read Rod's book thanks - it's just that I want to make SURE I get things right and what better than asking the experts like yourself and the others here? Here's the HVAC circuit

I posted on the other forum a while ago, and since then have taken the advice given there and by other experts I know. So, I have amended the plans accordingly. The screed on top of Regupol is already in place. The doors are built - each is 150kg. And now, I have the butterflies as the walls are going up very soon and the window is about to be built. So if you have any comments / tips / remarks / critics of any kind the time is now!

Ro wrote:

If you're not sure, postpone the built. Get the design ready and "aproved". When you're confertable with it, start the actual built :)

I am quite confortable with the design now, still have the butterflies though, and my motto is, I'd rather look stupid and ask than not ask and be stupid. So I ask and look stupid, a lot!

- Density of fiberglass/rockwool for inside rooms, between walls and fabric: 703 or 705 - I was planning to alternate pannels with and without FRK for the rooms to be not too bright but not too dead either, is it a good idea?

Ro wrote:

sure, why not. I haven't seen your acoustic plan yet, tho. Worry about that later ;)

I guess you're right!

- Density of fiberglass/rockwool for inside walls: 703 or 705 - FRK or not?

Ro wrote:

get the cheapest you can get, it'll do the job. Rod has some comments about that too in his book ;)

Well i was thinking of the Rockplus 100mm from Rockwool, 50kg/m3, should be fine I thought but just thought I'd ask...

Someone here posted this link about comparison between different materials for absorbtion: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm I've read conflicting information re. what would the best be, some advocating OC 705 FRK while others say 703 all the way and it would seam that Rockwool is better than both. Any opinions?

Ro wrote:

For inside walls, forget about it and get just the cheapest wool. For acoustics, you can do either or both. different sheets have different absorption co. But, as always, use the standard 48kg/m3 stuff. It'll do the job just fine. No need to get into "acoustic" wool or anything.. Read the "acoustics" forum part here and you'll find your way.

I've digged quite a lot in the acoustics forum but this link got me confused so I thought I'd better ask.

- Bass traps: stacked up triangles of rockwool / fiberglass, what I've seen described as superchunks (which density?) - or bass trap panels as per plan - or acoustic hangers?

Ro wrote:

48kg/m3 again.. superchunks, hangers.. what ever you like. John's into hangers and slats, I'm into superchunks. Ethan is into resonating panels.. take a pick. They all do a good job. I prefer corner-filled traps (aka superchunks) cuz of the volume of wool (deeper traps, lower absorption)

OK, I'll toss a coin then. Seriously, there's no rule of thumb as to when use one or the others?

- I've never seen anything about bass traps on corners between floor and walls - is it because it's not necessary?

Ro wrote:

It's because they take up precious space, but it sure works! (it's just another corner)

They take up space yes and no - as we never walk our feet right against the walls, so a bit of a bass trap downthere couldn't hurt I thought hence my question.

Over the mixing desk and client listening area, should it be diffusers or broadband absorbers?

Ro wrote:

Diffusers don't work well in a small room. Your pix are to fuzzy/small to tell me anything about dimensions.. Absorption is always good. Start with that.

I realised that after my post, so I corrected and decided on clouds there.

- Would anyone know of a good and affordable system for stretching fabric on the wall?

Ro wrote:

your hands and skills?

[/quote] That's funny - but I had more something like THAT in mind...

I've checked your plan (http://www.voixoff.pro/images/studio_pl ... _large.jpg) Looks good! Didn't pay TOO much attention, but I figure you understand what it takes to make a soundproof room. Sure others might have to comment about it. One thing; use just "standard" stuff. No "acoustic" stuff (like acoustic gypsum or anything), you'll throw away precious money. GreenGlue is cool. Again, standard stuff works fine. Plasterboard, Acrylic sealant, rockwool etc. Get that 50kg/m3 wool you talked about, it's cool. . Your HVAC plans are a bit unfinished. Blue and Red, is that cold and hot air ? Seperating rooms from HVAC is good, but you can just use a piece of flex-conduit (or whatever it's called). No need to throw away money (again). Read Rod's comments on HVAC again and redesign your plans. Do you know how much air pressure you need? Silencers? etc. details my friend, details ;) But you're on the right track!

I have acoustic nails and screws that I would really like to part with :) I even have left-handed AND right-handed fasteners! To the untrained eyeball they look bent, but trust me....

xSpace, very amusing, nice of you to entertain forum folks, not very helpful but very amusing, thanks! Jesting aside, I know what you mean about marketing pushing products as specialised when they don't do more than standard ones, but then again this kind of approach would also prevent people from considering specially developed products like Green Glue or similarly tech products, so not necessarily the best approach, is it? Ro thanks for your reply. The thing for walls as I understand it is mass, and Placophonique has more mass than standard gypsum board (plasterboard for the Brits here) hence me thinking of using it. Having said that you're right, it costs a fortune. After a bit of digging Fermacell is quite denser than Placophonique (Fermacell: 1200 kg/m3- Placophonique: 944 kg/m3 - standard Gypsum board: about 800kg/m3 depending on brands) so surely it would be better to have two-leaf Fermacell than two-leaf standard gypsum board, or am I missing something? re. the HVAC plan: you're right, it's not very finished, in fact the colors don't refer to anything, it's just to show that there are two distinct circuits!! One is for the CR, the other one is for the booth, in both cases it's air in on one side air out on the other. I'll have an AC option installed as well, but want the option to just run fresh air in/used air out without AC. As I understand after studying Rod's book, and applying common sense, I need a smooth flex conduit with insulation in it, and you're right, flex is the way to go, much easier to install. As for the air pressure, I'm not sure - and I'm not sure either where to source centrifugal (sp?) fans that slowly move a lot of air, anyone? Also, logic would tell me to fit the fan at the end of the circuit to extract used air than at the beginning of the circuit to inject fresh air, as it would also inject the noise of the fan - I do plan to install silencers similar to THOSE though so not sure if there would be a difference, plus if I want the option of injecting AC as well I guess it has to be a the in and not at the out - got to admit I'm out of my depth here... Now, re. fabric stretching tracks, anyone has had experience with one product or another? Thanks again for the contributions, keep it coming - worthwile or funny :poke:

Right, plans have evolved a bit taking into consideration beams and other unfortunately unmovable objects such as my wife's clinic (that's the wall on the right)... Now I'm faced with a question and am reaching out to the acoustic gods here: considering the design of the CR, which corner traps design out of those two (or any other design I didn't consider) would I be better off with? As I was already told here different people have different opinions but at the end of the day some designs surely are better suited to specific purposes than others... no? Another question: I already stated that I'm not sure about the traps in the vocal booth. It will be used by voiceover artists and singers. Should I put some traps on the back as well, should I not put any trap at all... Any takers on that one? PS: update on the HVAC: I'll let the professionals deal with this one, it's too involved and I don't have either the time or the skills to tackle it!

My only comment is that you are missing out on the option of using all your space for trapping. The internal wall design appears ok but the outer wall should follow the shape of the building. For example - the side walls could be slot resonators using the air space behind for increased depth (lower frequency) - similarly in the studio walls and the ceiling. cheers john

Thanks for your input John. Sorry if that was not clear: the outer wall on the plan on top is the wall of the building. For the rest, it's a room inside the building, which is larger and longer than this room.

For example - the side walls could be slot resonators using the air space behind for increased depth (lower frequency) - similarly in the studio walls and the ceiling.

Thanks, it's something I didn't consider but I like it a lot. I like my sound bright but tight and controlled with oomph to it and I was afraid to make the room a bit too dead, even with each other rockwool panel with FRK on room side and floor being hard wood floorboards. What would be the best place in the booth and the CR to fit those slot resonators? Thanks again!

I mean like this

Cheers for taking the time John I'm most grateful! Now I get what you mean - I assumed with my ignorance that air gap was important but I see why more rockwool would make more sense. The red thick lines between the two rockwool layers in the air gaps, are those the resonators?

Right. John, I realised that there are questions that really do show blondness. My last question about slots resonators location is one. Yes, I realise that it cannot be between the two leafs creating MSM. I've posted below a picture of the updated plans taking into account your suggestions. After studying some more I have now left a gap between the rockwool panels and the walls inside the studio. And now I really am at loss as to what to put where to prevent dead dull sound. I guess installing each other aforementioned rockwool slab with FRK facing the room would be a start but beside that bugger me if I've got a clue. Would you or anyone be able to direct me? You talked about slot resonators, should they be at the back and front instead of the superchunks? Should I put Helmotz there and some slot resonators on the side somewhere? Also, I posted about room ratios in the design forum but maybe I should have psoted here? Basically I have those (averaged) dimensions: cms - L: 620 x W: 405 x H: 240 Ft/In - L: 20.01 x W: 13.29 x H: 7.87 and get the result graphics below. Is it good doctor? Am about to order material and don't want (and can't afford!) to screw this one up... Cheers!

Any opinion on the room ratios results above, anyone? these graphic thingies really mean nothing to me and I could do with some help - cheers!

Voice, you don't seem to understand the skins involved by your drawings. In this drawing the grey is the outer skin. The black is the inner skin and the brown is the internal acoustic treatment. It works the same in the vertical where the booth is one frame and the control room another - and they never join.

Voice sounds very nice - or you can just call me Pierre :D Thank yo uvery much for taking he time John, I'm most grateful. I did those drawings but you're right, I could still be confused by my own stuff :mrgreen: Though, I think I'm not this time - the skins are as below, the inner walls are slanted. Or, do I misunderstand you and do you mean that they should be like on your drawing? I thought slanted was better, and that acoustic treatment didn't change the structure of the room (ie., if walls are parallel but treatment is slanted it's still considered a parallel room)? But maybe there are other forces at work? For the doors I went for the single suppadoor desing, but I always have the option to add another door in front as you've done it should my suppadoors leak a tad (although since I have about a million different types of seals on them I doubt it). What about the room ratios, any taker?

do you mean that they should be like on your drawing?

Yes Pierre.

Cheers John - now though, I'm utterly confused... I thought that slanted walls were the way to go in the CR, and that it was compulsory for the walls to be not parallel in the vocal booth??? I know that the acoustic treatment make it non-parallel but I was under the impression that regarding parallels, it was the actual leaf that mattered and not the acoustic treatment? Could you please enlight me as I'm now really lost... and about to put the walls up, ta so much!

Often, John splays the side walls with an angle to reduce early reflections on mixspot and flutter echo, but that's being done since the splayed walls are hard surfaces like slot resonators. If you were to put insulation covered with cloth walls (angled) they won't reduce early reflections and flutter echo because they are angled.. its because the are absorptive. catch me? So, if you want to finish with slot resonators on your side walls, the best way to do it is like John told you: Build it a rectangle, and splay the inner treatment since it will be a slot resonator (hard surface) I hope its more clear now

Thank you for your time jbassino, that does make sense indeed. John, again thank you for your time and expertise - what you're doing here with this forum passing on your knowledge and allowing other experts to do the same - and then allowing people with no knowlwdge to gain some, is admirable. :shot:

Right, plans update. I have carefully taken onboard comments and advice from a lot of very friendly and helpful people here and also friends in the field (mostly sound engineers working in high end facilities in London, UK) and... :yahoo: here's the final plans :shot: Well, final if no one here shouts at me telling me that I'm an utter moron because I've forgotten (insert basic stuff I could have forgotten here). One question I had was, in the CR, opposite the entrance door (veneered 100mm MDF as per my door plan posted here) am I right in placing a slat resonator? Thanks again to all involved, I'll try and post pix of the studio as it goes up!

Looks good to me :P