I have a question about how to maintain separation between two isolated walls where a two opposing doors need to be installed. How do you maintain isolation when the treadplate and transom, is shared between both doors/wall, will provide a path for vibration. Any advice or even a construction detail?
Room Isolation - door through
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 13036.
Don't connect the treadplate and transom is the advice given in most construction guides.I have a question about how to maintain separation between two isolated walls where a two opposing doors need to be installed. How do you maintain isolation when the treadplate and transom, is shared between both doors/wall, will provide a path for vibration. Any advice or even a construction detail?
That's what I am getting at. Would you construct the door frame in this case, similar to the way you would for an Isolated Frame double-glazed window. I'm basically referring to the construction details Figure 5.2 & 5.3 in Rod's book, Home Recording Studio : Build it like the Pros. I was going to post scanned copies of those figures, but I also want to ask the moderators, as well as Rod Gervais himself, if it would be ok to do so......before I did so. What say you all? Also, if I am going the two door route, should I still use 5/4 stock for the door frame, or will regular 5/8" jamb stock suffice? Perhaps 1" lumber for a jamb? Suggestions? I'm hoping that using that construction concept, in that I can still keep the doorway solid and sturdy, and maintain the max. amount of isolation. Input, help, comments..............thanks in advance for any of these!!!!! regards, ChrisDon't connect the treadplate and transom is the advice given in most construction guides.I have a question about how to maintain separation between two isolated walls where a two opposing doors need to be installed. How do you maintain isolation when the treadplate and transom, is shared between both doors/wall, will provide a path for vibration. Any advice or even a construction detail?
Yes, very similar. Post some pics or sketches so we can see what you're doing. BTW - "treadplate" and "transom"? Where are you from?Would you construct the door frame in this case, similar to the way you would for an Isolated Frame double-glazed window.
Actually, Rod suggests that it is better to build one single solid frame, all the way through, all the way around, and hang both doors on that one frame. So yes, the frame in that case actually will couple both sides of the wall.
IIRC, the main reason Rod says he does that is for safety: hanging a pair of huge, massive doors on a flimsy single frame each is not a good idea. Better to have them both hung on a shared very solid frame, which goes right through the wall to both sides for strength. Rod says that the slight amount of coupling / flanking that you will get with this method is negligible in the overall scheme of things, which is why it is so important to make sure that there is absolutely no coupling elsewhere: since this door frame will be the weak point, you don't want any more of them! You build the rest perfectly so that you can do what has to be done at the door frame for safety.
It's clear how you should do it, on page 96 of his book: one single large frame all around, with both doors hanging from it.
- Stuart -
Yes, with heavy doors you need solid frame constructions. Really.
I've seen "flimsy" frames on this board in several builds. Slamming and even just opening a door will weaken the frame more and more..
Building one solid frame... dunno. Rod says "sure". I say "hmmm". Building 2 solid frames would be a solution. Coupling them 2 frames would be your choice. It sure depends on the rest of your build.
You could build one solid frame and just not attach it to the inner wall (leave a 1/4" space, caulk it of course), or attach it using a decoupling/isolation bracket.
Stuart, totally understand where you are coming from and that approach makes perfert sense. With the amount of mass that I'm adding, the transmission that is going to occur shouldn't be much since I've decoupled the room pretty much everywhere else.
BUT, I'm with Ro on the door frame itself. I'm ordering the doors today and I think I'm going to go with separate frames and just couple them once the frames are in stalled. Not much difference in the price, but I'm not sure which solution will be easier for installation.
As for the treadplate and transom.............I really should have just said the entire door frame would be shared, not just a shared treadplate and transom.
Thanks for the advice and perspective. Just the right amount of push to get me moving again confidently.
As long as they are really solid, really tough frames, then I don't see a problem doing it that way. In my case, I plan to double up on everything around the door framing, and add a few extra members here and there, for strength. - Stuart -I'm ordering the doors today and I think I'm going to go with separate frames and just couple them once the frames are in stalled. Not much difference in the price, but I'm not sure which solution will be easier for installation.
That is pretty much what I've done with rough framing. I have double studded around the entire doorway for both walls. It's pretty solid, so I'm not too worried about going with a 1" (3/4") door jamb. I'm ordering the doors with four heavy duty hinges a piece and 1" jamb.As long as they are really solid, really tough frames, then I don't see a problem doing it that way. In my case, I plan to double up on everything around the door framing, and add a few extra members here and there, for strength. - Stuart -I'm ordering the doors today and I think I'm going to go with separate frames and just couple them once the frames are in stalled. Not much difference in the price, but I'm not sure which solution will be easier for installation.
Let's face it - if you intend to hang big heavy doors you are also dealing with big heavy walls.
Don't forget that you'll need some extra-long screws for the hinges, to go right through the jambs and deep into the underlying framing. They need to go deeeeeep.... - Stuart -That is pretty much what I've done with rough framing. I have double studded around the entire doorway for both walls. It's pretty solid, so I'm not too worried about going with a 1" (3/4") door jamb. I'm ordering the doors with four heavy duty hinges a piece and 1" jamb.
Well, one trip to Home Depot this evening and I've run into another question. Steel Doors? Have any of you all used Steel Doors? What is your take on them vs. Wooden Doors?
Steel is actually pretty good at isolating, if it is reasonably thick. Steel is roughly three to four times more dense than concrete, and about eight to ten times as dense as drywall. So if you get a door with 6 mm thick steel (about 1/4") then that's already roughly the same mass as three sheets of 5/8" drywall. But don't get a thin steel door: it will probably resonate too easily.
How thick is the steel on those doors you saw?
Yeah, Peter Steel his doors do wonders :mrgreen:
Steel is good, as Stu pointed out they are heavy. But how much buckaroons would such a door cost?
Voxboy - go with solid core wooden doors in a sturdy door Jamb.
Stuart and Ro - would guys care to enlighten us on your experience with steel doors for isolation?
I looked into this a while back, when I was trying to figure out what kind of doors would be best for my room, and I came across several companies that make steel acoustic doors. Some even make industrial-grade steel acoustic doors, for factories and plants. I was really interested in the idea of steel doors when I saw that some of those guys offer STC ratings up in the 50’s and even 60’s range, but I totally gave up on the idea when I saw the prices :shock: Even a low-STC-rated steel acoustic door is going to cost you a small fortune. Add up the cost of four or six doors, which is what I would need, and it eats up my complete budget for the entire studio! So I gave up on that idea, and I’m just going with Rod’s door designs for some doors, and probably a pair of your sliding glass designs in one other place. Steel is a great concept for doors, but way out of my price range. Anyway, here are some of the links that I had saved for those steel acoustic doors, FWIW: http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/103 ... DOORS.html http://www.cmsacoustics.co.uk/c-acousti ... l_door.htm http://www.industrialacoustics.com/uk/d ... _doors.asp http://www.oeler.com/highperf_doors_windows.html http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... /doors.asp http://www.rivett.com/fleming.html http://www.power-technology.com/contrac ... tflo2.html http://www.tradeindia.com/selloffer/170 ... Doors.htmlStuart and Ro - would guys care to enlighten us on your experience with steel doors for isolation?
Took another trip to Home Depot after a Tee Ball game to do some recon. The steel door that I saw was fiber glass filled 26 gauge steel. It's still pretty heavy, but the 26 ga steel has me concerned now. It's no where near 6mm steel. What I do like about it is that the door jamb is solid and already beefed up. Plus it's readily available at Home Depot. Price of the door is $116. The price of the solid core door (used door with fabricated jamb) I wanted to order with the four heavy duty hinges wold be about $100. Given the prices of both door options, what woudl you all do?Steel is actually pretty good at isolating, if it is reasonably thick. Steel is roughly three to four times more dense than concrete, and about eight to ten times as dense as drywall. So if you get a door with 6 mm thick steel (about 1/4") then that's already roughly the same mass as three sheets of 5/8" drywall. But don't get a thin steel door: it will probably resonate too easily. How thick is the steel on those doors you saw?
Thanks for the links Stuart. excellent references.
Voxboy - tap the steel door - I bet it rings.
That steel sounds way too thin, and the price sounds way too low for the kind of steel door you need. The ones I priced when I did this exercise before started at around US$ 1,000 or so (each door!), and go up to something like US$ 4,000, so I don't think you'll be getting anything like what you need for US$ 116.
"Filled"? That makes me think it is hollow inside! Not what you want. I thought you were talking about the kind of sheet steel doors that I've seen here in Chile.The steel door that I saw was fiber glass filled 26 gauge steel.
I'd go with the solid core wood, I think. Like John said, I bet that kind of light weight steel will ring like a bell if you tap it. That's what I meant by my comment about resonance. You don't want your door to join in with the band, and sing some of its own harmonies for you! You might be able to beef up the steel door somehow, but I wouldn't have a clue how you would go about that, or how successful you would be, but a solid core wood door is a tried and trusted method, and there are known ways of making that work well. By the way, do you have Rod's book, Voxboy? If so, then look on pages 92 - 98 for details about how to build your own door, based on a solid-core wood door. You basically just add mass to it, and seals around the edges. It works out much cheaper than a manufactured acoustic door. - Stuart -Given the prices of both door options, what woudl you all do?
Years ago we installed a thick steel door on a rehearsal room, it's pretty heavy. It worked like a charm, there was only some leaking on the perimeters since we didn't seal it of. (later we did)
The door was rescued from from an old building.
Recently I helped a friend with converting an old shed into a rehearsal room. It had a "semi" steel door in there already. Let's see if I can dig up some pix. It's absolutely soundproof. The door was a combo off steel and wood. 17cm thick 0_o
edit: here's an old pic of that door. unsealed yet. the room belongs to a friend. it's a work in progress
thanks Ro. can you get the pics, that would be cool?
just uploaded on old (before) pic. I'll ask for an update
Jeeezzzzz.......Talk about beefed up....that's got to be from a meat locker or something. After looking at the cheaper steel door at HD again. I'm thinking I'll use the solid wood door. The door was filled with fiberglass and was pretty dead sounding when I tapped it. BUT, I'm not quite convinced it's going to do the job. Since the steel itself is only about 1 mil total. 26 ga steel is about .017 in. and 1mm is about .03 in. The doors are not hollow, but filled with rigid fiberglass. I'd still want to add more mass to it, so why not just use the solid wood door in the first place. BTW, I do have Rod's book, and refer to it constantly. Cover is getting a little dog-eared, but not to worry.Years ago we installed a thick steel door on a rehearsal room, it's pretty heavy. It worked like a charm, there was only some leaking on the perimeters since we didn't seal it of. (later we did) The door was rescued from from an old building. Recently I helped a friend with converting an old shed into a rehearsal room. It had a "semi" steel door in there already. Let's see if I can dig up some pix. It's absolutely soundproof. The door was a combo off steel and wood. 17cm thick 0_o edit: here's an old pic of that door. unsealed yet. the room belongs to a friend. it's a work in progress
Yup, beaflocker door indeed :)
Forget about that flimpsy "steel" door than and go with a good old trusty solid wood core. Beef it up as needed.