Walls-Walls & More Walls

What's up everybody, I'm back with some more questions and hopefully some answers. Let me just say I already read the FAQ"s and I also did a search on my questions and I read all that I could. I even looked at the pictures of Left Bank Studio,Blue Bear Sound,Joe Egan's Studio, and Silva Productions. Plus, I read all the stuff That came with the pictures and I think that's why am a little confuse now and I hope you can help me out? In the first picture we have a layout of my studio and as you can see I have some orange in the layout were I hope to build John's inside out wall design or A. B. or C. I also have some yellow in my layout were I hope to build the STC 63 wall example. Ok before I ask my questions let me guide you through the second picture under my studio/wall layout. A. is John's inside out wall design. Starting with the first piece of sheetrock: sheetrock>insulation>air space>sheetrock>stud frame w./ insulation>sound board>sheetrock. B. is John's inside out wall design with a extra piece of sound board. Starting with the first piece of sound board: sound board>sheetrock>insulation>air space>sheetrock>stud frame w./insulation>sound board>sheetrock. C. is John's inside out design with a little twist to it. I don't know if it will work but here it goes. Starting with the first piece of sound board: sound board>sheetrock>insulation>air space>sound board>sheetrock>stud frame w./ 703 insulation>cloth. What I want to know is do I have my wall layout right?as far as where John's wall design and the STC 63 wall example goes? Will the A.B. or C walls still work were the orange is at? Does it matter what side the insulation is glued on? If the STC 63 example is wrong where I have at what can I do to replace the STC 63 wall design example in those spots? What if I don't put an air space in the A.b.or C. wall designs? The reason for that is because I think I read some were that insulation is consider an air space. Do you think John's inside out wall design is sufficient enough for a live room?and if not Can I triple on material on any of the A.B.C. or STC 63 walls that already has two dffrent layer of material? and if my example is wrong then how? EXAMPLE: sheetrock>insulation>air space>sheetrock>stud frame w./ insulation>sheetrock>sound board>sheetrock> I think I read some where that's it's not a good idea to triple on material for the walls. My reason for it is because I live about 25 ft. away from the live room and you will never know when you will get a heavy metal band come through your studio. Plus, the outer walls are made out of a really thin metal with rusting holes on it. I hope I didn't confuse ya with all my questions. Thank You Ozzie P.S. A little more info: The studio/walls will be on the same slab unless I end up building a drum room away from the live room. The walls have not yet been angled in my layout but will later.

Ozzie, apparently from your proposed wall construction you've missed this basic (but important) concept - from this "faq" thread - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8&start=45 one air space (including insulation) two masses. Period. Check out the border around the picture - this is what you want between ANY two places where you don't want sound to travel. Not three masses and two air spaces, all that accomplishes is to waste space and materials for less isolation. The only exception to this you should consider is the extra insulation layer in John's inside out walls, which you didn't draw correctly. Please look at the last graphic you posted, and examine the different wall constructions - you'll notice that the EXACT same materials can get you either STC 40 or STC 63, simply by PLACEMENT. Let me know if this is still confusing... Steve

What's up Steve, First let me thank you for the quick reply. Now let me see if I got this right. John's inside out wall design should be - Starting with the first piece of sheetroock and going from there: Insulation(air space)>sheetrock>stud frame w. insulation>sheetrock or even cloth? Do I have this right and does it belong where the orange out line is at? DO I have the STC 63 examples in the right places which would be the yellow walls which is made up of: two piece of sheetrock>stud frame with insulation>cavity?>stud frame with insulation>two piece of sheetrock?Do I have this right? or should I just use John's inside out wall design where all the orange and yellow out lines are at? Do you think John's inside out wall design is sufficent enough for my live room with the outer wall made out of a thin metal that is rusting with holes and my house being 25 ft. away with no insulation in the walls? Steve - I did look that picture but I guess the little naked guy through me off and I guess John's picture through me off also because the little gap between the insulatin. I'll try to post a picture of it to show you what I mean. Hopefully after you help me out I can reply with some confusing information that kind of goes against what your saying unless I'm tripping. Thank You Ozzie

Ozzie, first of all if your outer wall is crappy tin siding you can pretty much just pretend it's not there. Second, the main reason John came up with his "inside out wall" was to save space - however, this won't work well if you don't have an outer shell with some mass. Aussies tend to build outer shells with brick, not lightweight tin. In sound proofing, mass and space are your friends - thin and light are NOT. Basically, all the "inside out" wall does is to put the mass on the OTHER side of the studs, so that you have a sort of "built in" acoustic treatment. The downside is that you create a narrower air gap (which still should have insulation in it for better performance) - You can build the "inside out" walls for another reason, and that's to save a bit on material cost - the sound doesn't care which side of the studs you put wallboard, it only cares that there are two leaves of mass (wallboard, in other words) each of which can be any number of layers of material but NO AIR between them) with ONE air gap between these leaves. More mass, better soundproofing. More space between the two leaves of mass, better soundproofing. Insulation placed in the air space between leaves, better soundproofing. Differences in materials of either thickness or type from one leaf to another - better soundproofing. If a leaf (center of mass) is seriously ventilated, it doesn't count. Example - typical roof sheathing doesn't count as a leaf, because it's VENTED to keep moisture from building up and rotting the structure. Keep working at it, this stuff is NOT intuitive at first... Steve

:? Damn Steve I'm more confue then ever. I'm starting to have panel bass trap flashbacks :shock: Joe Egan's Studio

Below shows the first course of action taken in the existing structure. We added 6" of insulation to the ceiling and added a sandwich consisting of 5/8" sheetrock - 1/2"Celotex Soundboard - 5/8" sheetrock to all existing walls.

-not your quote Steve

A leaf is all the layers of mass on ONE side of the frame, whether it's one layer or four.

Not three masses and two air spaces, all that accomplishes is to waste space and materials for less isolation.

the sound doesn't care which side of the studs you put wallboard, it only cares that there are two leaves of mass (wallboard, in other words) each of which can be any number of layers of material but NO AIR between them) with ONE air gap between these leaves. More mass, better soundproofing. More space between the two leaves of mass, better soundproofing. Insulation placed in the air space between leaves, better soundproofing. Differences in materials of either thickness or type from one leaf to another - better soundproofing

Things like this get me confuse :? Steve. I though I understood but I guess I don't. I read and I read but I just don't get it Steve can you help me out. Can you tell me what to do step by step with my wall layout(picture 1)? How would you build the walls where the orange out line is at with the information you know?and How would you build the walls where the yellow out line is at with the information you Know? I would like to build the walls with sheetrock or soundboard or both if it's better. Thank You :? zzie

Looking at your orange outline, for you exterior wall. For better sound proofing, instead of having: tin>insulation>sheetrock>insulation>sheetrock>insulation>soundboard>sheetrock. with what Steve was saying, you would want<using same materials>: tin>sheetrock between studs>sheetrock between studs>insulation>insulation(other wall)>soundboard>sheetrock Or something to that fashion. Same thing for interior walls. Ron

What's up VSapceboy, Thanks for trying to help but I'm still trying to understand what you and Steve are talking about. tin>sheetrock between studs>sheetrock between studs>insulation>insulation(other wall)>soundboard>sheetrock [/quote] Can you shed some more light on what your trying to explain to me? Is this all one wall or two? Do you have some more examples? I'm more of a visual person so can you or Steve put some drawings (examples) up of what you are trying to explain to me pleeeeeease? Thank You Ozzie

Ozzie, can you post a drawing of just what is already there for your outside walls? All your inner separating walls can be done like the STC 63 wall example, but your outside walls will need a different design depending on what is already there. Also what you mean by light tin with holes in it - can that be replaced with more solid material? Please do as accurate a drawing as you can for these outside walls... Steve

What's up Steve, here is a drawing of my studio the way it is right now. The first drawing with lines is pointing to the material and the second one is the samething just without the lines, just in case the lines may have confused you. Siver- crappy tin or metal / Tan- osb board Purple- sheetrock/ Green- garage door Pale-insulatin The only place I have insulation /osb board/and sheetrock is the studio I'm in now which will be Studio B later.

Also what you mean by light tin with holes in it - can that be replaced with more solid material?

The light tin that I'm talking about is the kind that they sell at home depot for building storage sheds or roofs and the reason it has holes is because it's rusting in some places. The thing is Steve my brother is renting the place so I would hate to redo the whole place and end up moving later-it's bad a nuff that I'm putting up all this time/money/ and material into this place already but what did you have in mind when you said "more solid matertial" maybe it could be done but I doubt the owner would let me change the outside but I'll see what I can do. Thank You Ozzie

Steve - I just wanted to post this drawing up because this will be the way my studio will be later but with the angled walls and the STC 63 ex where they belong and whatever we come up with the outside walls. Plus, two more question Steve:

All your inner separating walls can be done like the STC 63 wall example,

So the whole yellow outline that is painted in the very first drawing is correct? In the STC 63 ex. is that a gap in betwwen the two walls? I just want to make sure.

Ozzie - Let's try to make this easy. Look at the picture of the STC 63 wall. Ignore all the rest. This is a view looking down on it from above. Make believe that the left hand wall is your existing wall - and the most left side is your steel siding outside the building. That sidiing isn't gonna be a lot of isolation - pretty lousy in fact. But ripping it off to do it all right will be very expensive. So instead of doing that - why not just cut drywall to fit in between the studs and push it up tight to that metal siding on the left. Sort of drywalling inside the framing bays. Not a perfect world - but a lot better than the siding all by it self. And then insulate the bay. NOW - now you're ready to build your new inside wall. That's the one on the right side of the picture. After you build that wall you can still see the insulation on the outside wall - because you do not want to cover that up - that would be bad. Build that wall an inch inside of the old wall - then insulate it - then drywall it. (Yes that is a gap - you always want an air gap) Can you picture it now? Rod

Here's a quick drawing of what he's saying...

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I intended - I really appreciate you all taking the time to help out, I'm gonna be happy anytime soon just to get the "gator level" low enough so they only chomp on my ass, instead of trying to trim my eyebrows... Steve

By george I think I've got it :idea: and then the little light turns on :lol: OK two more stupid questions : How many sheets of drywall inside the studs or is one piece of sheetrock enough isolation? Let's say I'm trying to finish with a cloth finish and 30 degree angle walls for my monitors and etc... when I finish the outer wall do I use the second wall (inner wall) to do all that or do I use John's inside out wall design after the second wall that is out lined in red in the drawing below? I would like to thank everybody that has been helping me with my studio, I'm really greatful thank you. I don't know if ya ever heard this before But it takes a village to raise a child but I guess in my case it takes a forum to help me build a studio :lol: Thank You Ozzie

Ozzie, you're getting closer but not quite there yet - why don't you tell me how much thickness you can use (total, from existing frame) for your added walls on the outside perimeter, and I'll draw a wall plan for you and explain each part of it... Steve

Steve- When you ask me:

why don't you tell me how much thickness you can use (total, from existing frame) for your added walls on the outside perimeter, and I'll draw a wall plan for you and explain each part of it... Steve

This is what comes to mind: Well the stud is 3.5" wide so I'm thinking 3 or 4 pieces of sheetrock can fit into the studs without insulation but then I'm thinking I need the insulation so with insulation I can put two pieces of sheetrock or He could be asking me how much thickness I can use for my added walls on the outside perimeter because he doesn't know if it fits into my budget so if that the case just let me know how much thickness I need and I'll find a way to get the money so I can do the job. -Tho' life is complicated only what you make to be- Thank You Ozzie

Ozzie, mainly your drawing has too many air gaps - your outer metal + the sheet rock you put between studs is ONE leaf - after that, you should only have one air/insulation space, then ONE more leaf. That inner leaf will need to be at least two layers of sheet rock. This will mean you only have to build one more frame than the one that's already there. If you put insulation between part of the outside frame studs, then you can either put up the other frame and insulate it, then put on your inside layers of sheet rock - OR, you can build the frame laying down on the floor, put your layers of sheet rock on the frame, and stand it up, caulking it and fastening it where it will sit. Doing it this second way is John's "inside out" wall construction - the main advantage is only having to build one more frame, and having a place to put acoustic treatment and cover it with cloth (the cloth staples to the frame, covering the insulation material that's being used as acoustic treatment.) If you put sheet rock pieces between your outer studs up against the metal, you need to either put Tyvek up against the metal first or use "greenboard", which is special sheet rock designed for wet locations such as bathrooms. I would recommend BOTH. Remember - you only want ONE air gap, and only TWO centers of mass. Adding more gaps and wallboard is a waste of time and money. It will do much more good if you use that extra wallboard to make the TWO centers of mass heavier. (like, 3 layers per leaf instead of 2) Mass, then air, then mass. QUIT. I don't know how else to say this. Take a look back in this thread where you posted the graphic of different STC rated walls - note the STC 50 wall? This is essentially what your last drawing shows. 3 leaves, two air spaces. Now, note the STC 57 wall - one LESS leaf, less material, MORE STC. Now, note the STC 63 wall - exact same amount of material as the STC 40 wall, but with the two inner boards moved to the outside so that there is only MASS, AIR, MASS. The key here is placement - having two or more air gaps in a wall only serves to couple the wall surfaces together better, so that sound has an easier time getting through them. NOT what you want. What I asked previously was how much space can you use for your outside walls, measured from the inside of the existing frame to the inner surface of the final wall? If you can give me that, I'll do two choices of wall for you and estimate the difference in STC for you... Steve

Well, heres my shot at it. :D fitZ

That'll do 'er, Fitz, thanks - looks like yer concrete hatch kinda "spilled over" a bit though - that fine Coos Bay wind blow the stuff around a bit? :wink: Ozzie, all I'd add to that is to remember my comments about the "greenboard" and tyvek - that crappy tin isn't gonna stop much moisture, so you want a barrier and stuff that doesn't care about moisture as much. If you don't know what "greenboard" is, check with your local building supply. It's sheet rock for use around wet areas like bathrooms and kitchens. Thanks again Rick, I might get a full 5 hours tonight... :lol: Later... Steve

Hey Steve,, no prob ole buddy. I've actually got a ton of things drawn, but didn't want to stick my stuff into your domain, but I know you've been dealin with them gators :D Can't whip em unless ya gits some shuteye once in a while. Ha! Just let me know if you need ANY drawing done and I'll be happy to do it. NOW that I know how to post em! By the way, I'll be posting my plan soon. Give ya something to try out those new gator rippin techniques on. :P fitZ ps....my concrete hatch contractor was lazy. He just covered it with earth.

"ps....my concrete hatch contractor was lazy. He just covered it with earth" - AHA!!!?! Another steenkin' cover-up, I KNEW it... :lol: Come to think of it, it's just like REAL concrete contractors do :roll: Again, thanks a mil, man - I'm actually gettin to the sack and it's only 1:30... Steve

Ok guys I think I got it now, Tell me if I got the right: I can use the second wall(inner wall) to soffit my monitors at a 30 degree angle, build my bass traps or even finish it off with a cloth finish?- example circled in yellow

Remember - you only want ONE air gap, and only TWO centers of mass. Adding more gaps and wallboard is a waste of time and money. It will do much more good if you use that extra wallboard to make the TWO centers of mass heavier. (like, 3 layers per leaf instead of 2)

So what your saying is I can put three or even four layers of sheetroock or some other material on each of the walls? I know I'm probably pushing it with the four layer. - example with orange arrows -I hope I have this right- Thank You Ozzie P.S. Thank you Cadesignr for the drawing and everyone that help me :D

" I can use the second wall(inner wall) to soffit my monitors at a 30 degree angle, build my bass traps or even finish it off with a cloth finish?" - Not a good plan, ozzie - you would need to build your soffits/traps INSIDE the mass-air-mass envelope we've been talking about. You have the wall design down now, but if you use part of that wall structure for "double duty", such as bass traps or speaker soffits, you will weaken your sound proofing. Both those additions will need to be INSIDE of your "mass-air-mass" envelope, unless you don't need hardly any isolation at all. If you build your inner leaf as an "inside out" wall, then you would want a cloth covering over the studs to cover the insulation that is acting as acoustic treatiemt. However, this is NOT the thing to do for front, splayed walls or speaker soffits. Unless you're mixing surround, these surfaces, when part of a Reflection Free Zone with enough angle to eliminate early reflections, should be reflective. Only rear (and some ceiling) surfaces should be absorptive in a normal RFZ, NON-surround control room... Steve

What's up Steve, My bad for taking so long to reply. My damn real job gets in the way sometimes. Steve is there anyway to soffit my monitors at a 30 degree angle and build my bass traps with out weaking my soundproofing? If there is away to do this or if there isn't can you tell me how to go about doing this with my inner wall? that would be my reason for always adding a extra spring and leaf in my drawings because I wasn't sure if I could use the inner wall to soffit my monitors at a 30 degree angle and build my bass traps with out weaking my soundproofing. Thank You Ozzie

Ozzie, check out Aaron's 3-D plans on this page http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=60 and the next one in the thread - then c'mon back and ask questions... Steve