Residential/garage style studio

Hi everyone, I'm new to the boards but have been reading for a while and gathering as much information as I can. This is a fantastic site and I was so happy when I found it. I apologise for making my first post a question or questions. Ok so my partner and I recently jumped in to the world of the home owner (interest rates in Australia are looooow atm!) We were originally going to buy but decided to build instead. We had massive problems from the start - the company we were building with went broke and well, its been a mess. Anyway to cut a long story short we're back into it again. Finally! I must admit, I didn't put a hell of a lot of thought into my studio space originally but essentially did what I could with limited knowledge and space. Below is a section of the council approved plans for the space showing dimensions etc. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6380/studioresize.jpg As you can see the two rooms aren't that big but its all I could do given money and space constraints. The house is located in a residential area. We will eventually have neighbors on the right hand side. We currently have neighbors on the left hand side and in front of us (in front of the garage). The house is split level with bedrooms located up the stairs and a kitchen/dining area directly over the garage/studio spaces. The garage and studio rooms are on a concrete slab. As you can see there are a few windows in the rooms - couldn't get it through council without them. I'll be using this studio to record (probably) mostly rock bands. My plan was to purchase an Allen and Heath Zed 436 and take the outs into a MOTU 24I/O and into the computer giving me a hardware/software combination. Might seem like too many ins atm for the space but I'm looking to the future as well. So I have many questions to ask but the first ones are: How do these rooms look to you people? Can you see any potential problems re: size, shape, location etc? Should I be getting my builder to integrate soundproofing into the initial construction of the rooms? Is it essential that I build 'rooms within rooms' after construction? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Aram.

Please read the post at the top of the forum. there's a bunch of aussie on the site that will be keen to help, but you have to follow the rules.

Hey Aram, Finally someone thinking before they build a house. Save yourself some money by not having them sheet rock/gyp board the two rooms, only insulate and "yes" a double wall construct is the way to go for best isolation. The windows you can make plugs for. Better for resale down the road anyway. And your ceiling will need some mass to it seeing how you have bedrooms above you. Hope his helped some Peace Tom

Thanks Tom, All very useful information. I asked my builder to look into glass for the windows and he came up with this: http://www.viridianglass.com/products/vlam-hush/default.aspx?ProductType=HouseHolder It seems fairly inexpensive and like you say I can add plugs later too. So next question: Should I get my builder to order the inner frame and get his people to put it all up plus the sheet rock or would it be less expensive to do all that myself? Thanks again, Aram.

Aram - unfortunately your council approved plans or your imageshak pics don't load for me. this site offers picture loading functions - maybe you could share your pics and problem with us that way.

Sorry John. Here's the pic. Not sure what happened to the other one. Was working a few days ago - imageshack :roll:

anson01 wrote:

So next question: Should I get my builder to order the inner frame and get his people to put it all up plus the sheet rock or would it be less expensive to do all that myself?

Get a quote from them and make the decision. Obviously DIY is always cheaper but not neccesarily faster. If you do have them do it watch closely as they build. All the details you need to know should be learned before you/they build so you know what to look for ie' flanking, caulking and isolation Peace Tom

Thanks Tom. Much appreciated. I'll do some more research over the next few weeks. I have to say I do worry about the builder and his guys doing it - just a little - as he doesnt seem to know much about this stuff but then he would be much better at actually building it all than I would and he could get all the stuff cheaper I'm sure. Anyway, I'll do some research and talk to him. Thanks again, Aram.

Thanks for the help so far people :) I've decided to let the builder construct the "room within a room". Have discussed it with the "better half" and cost wont be a problem ... within reason. However... I have some questions. First, after doing some research I'm actually a little confused about the best way to do the walls as I've seen some variety in the way people have done theirs. Should the construction go like this: Brick (outside) -> (original) frame with insulation -> air -> frame with insulation -> double gyprock (different thicknesses with green glue in between). Or should I also put gyprock on the original leaf as well: Brick (outside) -> (original) frame with insulation -> (double?) gyprock -> air -> frame with insulation -> double gyprock (different thicknesses with green glue in between). I have read that the second option would cost more but not give a justifiable increase in reduction. Is this right? I think that's what you were talking about in your post Tom? Also, should I get the builder to construct an "inside" frame that would make the room a slightly irregular shape - not rectangle? I don't have that big a room to work with so space is an issue. Thanks again guys :mrgreen:

Brick (outside) -> (original) frame with insulation -> air -> frame with insulation -> double gyprock (different thicknesses with green glue in between).

Yup! That's the way to go. Although you don't really need different thicknesses of drywall: The slight advantage you get from the differing resonant frequencies is offset by the slight loss in mass. Just go for two sheets of 5/8 on the inner frame, and you'll be fine.

Or should I also put gyprock on the original leaf as well:

If you mean "right up against the brick, in direct contact with it", then not, its not worth it. Brick is about 3 times more dense than drywall, so you'd need to layer up drywall until it was three times the thickness of your brick wall, just to double the mass of the wall. That's an awful lot of drywall! One or two sheets isn't going to make any appreciable difference. What WILL make a big difference is to render that brick wall (stucco it, plaster it, etc.) and then paint it, to make certain that it is absolutely airtight. An airtight seal is your friend. But if you mean "in the other side of the outer frame, with an air gap", then the answer is MOST DEFINITELY NO! That would make a three-leaf system, which is a really bad idea. It will make your isolation worse, not better, at the low end of the spectrum.

I have read that the second option would cost more but not give a justifiable increase in reduction. Is this right?

Yup! Very right. And could make it worse, if you do it as a three-leaf.

Also, should I get the builder to construct an "inside" frame that would make the room a slightly irregular shape - not rectangle?

Which room? I see two. What is the purpose of each room? If you plan to use one as a control room, then you want to make it perfectly symmetrical, not irregular, but splaying the walls and ceiling to reduce flutter echo and help control first reflections is an option that is often recommended here. If you want to do that, you need to splay each side wall 6 degrees, and angle the ceiling up 12 degrees. The front of the room (where the speakers are) is at the narrowest point. The walls and ceiling widen out from that point backwards. Your "music" room seems to be big enough that you could afford the space to do that. But if you only want a practice room, then by all means make it as irregular as you feel like. Or not. Either will work. There are pros and cons both ways. - Stuart -

One more comment: If your "music room" is going to be a control room, then you have both doors in the wrong place. They are in the exact spots where your bass trapping needs to go for best effect. You need to fix that. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Brick (outside) -> (original) frame with insulation -> air -> frame with insulation -> double gyprock (different thicknesses with green glue in between).

Yup! That's the way to go. Although you don't really need different thicknesses of drywall: The slight advantage you get from the differing resonant frequencies is offset by the slight loss in mass. Just go for two sheets of 5/8 on the inner frame, and you'll be fine.

Or should I also put gyprock on the original leaf as well:

If you mean "right up against the brick, in direct contact with it", then not, its not worth it. Brick is about 3 times more dense than drywall, so you'd need to layer up drywall until it was three times the thickness of your brick wall, just to double the mass of the wall. That's an awful lot of drywall! One or two sheets isn't going to make any appreciable difference. What WILL make a big difference is to render that brick wall (stucco it, plaster it, etc.) and then paint it, to make certain that it is absolutely airtight. An airtight seal is your friend. But if you mean "in the other side of the outer frame, with an air gap", then the answer is MOST DEFINITELY NO! That would make a three-leaf system, which is a really bad idea. It will make your isolation worse, not better, at the low end of the spectrum.

I have read that the second option would cost more but not give a justifiable increase in reduction. Is this right?

Yup! Very right. And could make it worse, if you do it as a three-leaf.

Also, should I get the builder to construct an "inside" frame that would make the room a slightly irregular shape - not rectangle?

Which room? I see two. What is the purpose of each room? If you plan to use one as a control room, then you want to make it perfectly symmetrical, not irregular, but splaying the walls and ceiling to reduce flutter echo and help control first reflections is an option that is often recommended here. If you want to do that, you need to splay each side wall 6 degrees, and angle the ceiling up 12 degrees. The front of the room (where the speakers are) is at the narrowest point. The walls and ceiling widen out from that point backwards. Your "music" room seems to be big enough that you could afford the space to do that. But if you only want a practice room, then by all means make it as irregular as you feel like. Or not. Either will work. There are pros and cons both ways. - Stuart -

Awesome! Thanks so so much Stuart! I'm actually going to see the builder today so I'll let him know what you have told me. :D Just so you know the "media" room will be the control room and the "music" room will be the live room. Also, the control room (media room), to save costs will not be a "room within room" :oops: . However, it will be well insulated and tbh I'm not too worried about sound escaping as I'm not planning on monitoring too loudly or too late at night. Also, above will be a kitchen (might get them to do the ceiling properly to keep kitchen noise out), the right hand side will be the live room and the left hand side will be the subfloor of one of the other levels of the house (air and footings). At the rear will be a hallway separating the studio rooms from the garage. Do you think this is ok? So for the walls what I'm getting is... Brick (outside) -> Plaster (or some kind of render) over the inside of the brick (painted) -> frame with insulation -> air -> frame with insulation -> double gyprock. I think thats right. Thanks so much again Stuart. Maybe I shouldnt worry about splaying the walls? Maybe just treat them later? Dunno. Awesome. :D

Hey Aram. You're welcome! Glad to help. But don't sing victory yet. You still have some problems there, and some of them might be something to worry about. One of them depends on the answer to this question: What is the height of the ceilings in those rooms? I'm guessing around 2.4 m?

Just so you know the "media" room will be the control room and the "music" room will be the live room.

OK. Got it! I was thinking you would have it the other way around, but I guess you need more space for your instruments? OK, so I assume that the front of your CR will be where the window is, but that's going to create an issue as you will have glass right behind your speakers. Are you planning to plug that window somehow? You don0t want glass behind your speakers, or you will get reflections and comb filtering. Unless you soffit mount them, I guess. Are you planning to soffit mount your speakers? So your speakers will be firing down the long axis of that room, of course, and it looks to be plenty long enough that you can get a good mix position around the 38% mark with your speaker acoustic axes intersecting at 60° just behind your head. Good!

Also, the control room (media room), to save costs will not be a "room within room"

Well, looking at your plans, it kind of half is, and half isn't. Ditto for the live room (LR): Neither one of them is the fully decoupled 2-leaf MSM room that it needs to be. They are both sort of "half-and-half". Not quite sure why that is, but you won't get good isolation if you build it like the plans show it right now. Let me go back to some of your initial comments and questions, to clarify:

I'll be using this studio to record (probably) mostly rock bands.

So you are going to be LOUD! Undoubtedly! You are probably looking at levels around 115 to 120 dB SPL in the live room, maybe even more. There is no way that the construction you show in the plans, and are talking about in your posts, is going to isolate that very well. You have bedrooms upstairs, (future) neighbors a few meters away on one side, the crawl space under the house on the other side, the garage behind, and simple windows up front...

Should I be getting my builder to integrate soundproofing into the initial construction of the rooms?

Absolutely, if you can afford it. Or at least get him to make provision for it in the plans and construction, so that it can be completed easily and correctly later, if money is tight now.

Is it essential that I build 'rooms within rooms' after construction?

If you want good isolation, then most definitely! You simply cannot get good isolation from single-leaf construction, nor from the typical construction used in houses, and certainly not enough to tame an enthusiastic rock band.

I asked my builder to look into glass for the windows and he came up with this:

Looks like good laminate glass to me. But check those specs, and compare them to your reality. The very best they have to offer requires one pane of 12.5 mm, then a 16 mm air gap, then a second pane of 8.5mm: That is advertised as taking a level of 75 dB on one side, and reducing it to about 35 dB on the other side. So they are talking about roughly 40 dB TL for their best system. But you don't have a level of 75 dB to deal with: you will have a level of around 120 dB to deal with, when your band is jamming away merrily. 40 dB of reduction will get that down to 80 dB. 80 dB is loud. 80 dB is the level of really loud conversation, or maybe a motorbike passing a few meters away, or a circular saw running (but not cutting). That's what you'll be getting through the glass, and therefore that is the best you can hope for with your current plan...

Should I get my builder to order the inner frame and get his people to put it all up plus the sheet rock or would it be less expensive to do all that myself?

Personal preference! If it were my place, I'd do it myself, since I like to save money, I already have most of the tools and some of the skills that I'd need, and I can rent tools and hire people to do the parts where I don't have the skills. I'm also a perfectionist, and I want it done right, the way a studio should be built, not the way an average builder would do it. But that's your call. If you know what you are doing, then sure, do it yourself. It will be much slower like that, but you will have full control over every last detail.

However, it will be well insulated ...

That's actually irrelevant! Insulation is not the issue: isolation is. Contrary to popular belief, insulation does not stop sound. Insulation is good at keeping heat inside the room, but lousy at keeping sound inside the room. Only mass does that. There are two totally different and incompatible issues going on here. One is to isolate your room, the other is to treat it. Isolation means keeping all of the sound energy in the room, not letting any out, and the only way to do that is by building a large, solid, rigid, massive airtight shell inside of another large, solid, rigid, massive airtight shell. There are no shortcuts. You cannot bypass the laws of physics by hoping that they won't apply to you: they will. That is issue #1: keeping the sound in. Accomplished with "isolation". Issue #2 is the exact opposite: getting rid of the sound that you kept in :shock: . You don't want it bouncing around inside the room forever! That's called "reverb", and you don't want much of it in your room, but by forcing the sound to stay inside, you got it for sure! So now you have to treat the room acoustically, to deal with that energy that you did not let escape. That treatment usually involves insulation. But don't get confused here: insulation does not STOP sound. It just ABSORBS it. Just like a sponge does not stop the flow of water, but nevertheless absorbs water. Kind of the same idea here. So don't confuse the two concepts. Isolation stops sound, insulation does not. Insulation helps absorb sound as part of the treatment, but does not stop it. Isolation is accomplished with mass and airtight seals, treatment is accomplished by either converting the sound energy to heat (absorption), or diffusing it evenly back into the room. Isolation and treatment are two different concepts.

However, it will be well insulated and tbh I'm not too worried about sound escaping as I'm not planning on monitoring too loudly or too late at night.

Monitoring is not going to be the issue. Bleeding is. If you don't have good isolation between your CR and LR, you won't be able to hear on the speakers what is happening with the mics. You won't be able to position your mics well at all, since when you go into the CR to listen to them on the speakers, you will also hear the direct sound from the instrument coming through the walls and ceiling. Not only that, but any sound you make in the CR will still be heard in the LR, where it will be picked up by the mics.: Stirring your coffee, coughing, talking, listening to other tracks while you record, equipment noise, moving your chair around, dropping your pen on the floor... all of that will get into the mics in the LR, if you don't have good isolation between the CR and the LR. I'm talking from firsthand experience here: I just finished an album where all of the drum tracks were contaminated with the sound of birds: There were birds roosting nosily just outside the hall (not studio) where the drums were tracked, and every single mic on every single track of the album had bird song all over the drums and bass. It took me WEEKS of careful editing to get rid of that. You'd think that birds would not be a problem on drums tracks, but I can assure that they most certainly are!

Also, above will be a kitchen ...

So you will also have plumbing noises, refrigerator noises, and people noises leaking down from the top, as well as your own noises leaking in from the side? :)

(might get them to do the ceiling properly to keep kitchen noise out)

Ceiling alone wont help. A "room within a room" is exactly what the name says. If you only do the ceiling, then you didn't do anything. Unless you do ALL SIX sides of the room, then you ave not isolated it. You can't just do two or three sides and hope that sound won't find its way through the other sides, because it will. The laws of physics and Murphy's law guarantee that it will. The problem here is called "flanking". Any time that sound can get around your isolation by another path, it will. So if you build a great 2-leaf MSM ceiling with STC-65 rating, then sound will just flank around it through the walls, and you won't have isolation: Your room is ONLY as good as the weakest link, If that weak link is a door, or a window, or a wall that isn't there, then that's how good your entire room is. Think of it like an aquarium. You have to have a floor and all four sides in place in order for the aquarium to hold water. take out any one of those five, or even put a hole in it, and you no longer have an aquarium. same with your room. You need ALL sides in place in order for it to isolate. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. Sure, you can build them one at a time as funds permit, but it won't actually work properly' until you finish the last one.

Brick (outside) -> Plaster (or some kind of render) over the inside of the brick (painted) -> frame with insulation -> air -> frame with insulation -> double gyprock. I think thats right.

Yup, that's the basic idea, although you probably don't need the "frame with insulation" up against the brick wall. You need to fill the entire air gap with insulation, so the frame is just a waste of wood. You only need the frame for the inner leaf. Of course, you DO need two frames between your rooms, but only one on the outside walls. - Stuart -

Again, thanks sooooo much Stuart. My mate got a bottle of Dimple for giving me five minutes worth of advice on the kitchen. :D Hmmmm... dunno how much this will be worth :shock: So you've basically solidified in my mind that I do NEED two proper rooms within two rooms. But before I get to the walls, yes, the ceiling height will be standard. 2.4. As far as the rear window in the control room goes, I don't like it there but like I said, council wouldnt pass it if I didnt have windows there. I was planning on making plugs for all of the windows. Do you think this is feasible? Re: speakers, I do plan on soffit mounting the good speakers when I get them but because I just have fairly average near-fields at the moment I was going to put them on stands behind the desk then get good mid-fields later and soffit mount those ones. In the mean time I thought it might be prudent to fix the rear corners with traps :? I was originally going to have the CR set up the other way but I do want some room for people to sit, plus I realised, after some more research that it would be better long ways. So the walls (and ceiling). As far as decoupling goes... you are right. Nothing is really de-coupled at all. So you've convinced me that I need to do two rooms within rooms. Thanks. :D However, it would seem that my builder needs convincing. He seems adamant that Brick -> Air -> Insulation -> Double Gyprock ... will be ok. Do you mind if I email your post to him? I think he's trying to do the right thing and save his clients money but ... yeah.... Oh, also, construction is kinda well under way. The framing (standard) has been done as has the brickwork. The windows are in too. I'd attach pics but I'm not sure they'd help. Anyway, thanks so much again for the help Stuart. I've come to the conclusion that it may as well be done properly if its going to be done at all. Cheers, Owe you many :) Aram.

My mate got a bottle of Dimple for giving me five minutes worth of advice on the kitchen. :D Hmmmm... dunno how much this will be worth

:) Not sure what "Dimple" is, but I'm willing to give it a try if it comes so highly recommended! So just ship me a container load, and we'll cal it quits.... :)

So you've basically solidified in my mind that I do NEED two proper rooms within two rooms.

Yup! If you want good isolation all around, then that really is the best way to go. Actually, it's not really "two rooms inside two rooms", but rather "two rooms inside one shared outer leaf". The outer leaf is your existing brickwork. The two inner rooms can both be done with stud framing and several layers of drywall on just ONE side of the framing (never on both sides!).

But before I get to the walls, yes, the ceiling height will be standard. 2.4.

Ouch! that's what I feared. Bad news, I'm afraid. Your control room width is also listed as 2.4 m, which gives your room a square cross section! Worst possible shape. Not good. Terrible room ratio, there, in fact. I just plugged your numbers into Bob Gold's room mode calculator, and you have a whole bunch of issues, right across the board, with those dimensions. Flags all over the place. Your room ratio turns out to be 1 : 1 : 1.7, which is tagged by the mode calculator as "A worst case scenario calculated by RPG". Your Bonello diagram comes up as "Bad", and your ratio fails 2 of the 3 BBC sanity tests. It is not a pretty picture as you have multiple overlapping room modes, all across the entire spectrum. You'll never be able to mix well in there. So, you REALLY need to do something about your control room dimensions. Either you have to raise the ceiling about 40 cm :!: (which is probably out of the question, I guess) or you have to make the room wider, which means eating into your LR a bit. That sounds far more probable. Either way, you have to move framing that you say is already in place. Not fun, but you don't have a lot of choice if you want a room that actually works as a CR. The room is also too long for the low height and width. I've been fooling around with possible dimensions, and I can get you close to Sepmeyer's second best ratio, or to Louden's second best ratio. But Sepmeyer 2 means that you have to reduce the length of the room, and Louden 2 means that you can keep the length but you have to reduce the height. Personally, I'd go with Sepmeyer 2, since I reckon a shorter room with a normal height ceiling is much better than a long room with a low ceiling. Low ceilings are bad news for studios. If you want to go with the Sepmeyer 2, then you'd need to make the room 2.76 m wide, 2.4 high, and 3.35 long. That would nail Sepmeyer 2, spot on. You could maybe use those 80 cm that you'd have to chop off the back for storage space, equipment racks, HVAC silencers, or some such. And you'd lose 36 cm off the width of the LR. Probably not a big deal. HOWEVER! Those dimensions are for the finished inner surface of the CR inner leaf. You need to take that into account. This is for the final wall surfaces, just prior to adding your room treatment. When you say that the ceiling will be 2.4 m, do you mean that you already have joists up there, and the bottom edge of those joists is 2.4 m above the surface of the final finish floor? Or do you mean something else? If you do a full "room-in-a-room", then your inner-leaf ceiling will have to be BELOW that, so maybe Louden #2 might be your best option after all. Could you take some photos of what you actually have there right now? Also, do an accurate SketchUp model of what you have at present.

I was planning on making plugs for all of the windows. Do you think this is feasible?

Yeah, that should work, as long as the neighbors don't complain about the aesthetics! As long as you make it massive, and seal it tight, it should be OK. However, if you are going to go the full two-leaf room-in-a-room route, then your best bet would be to forget the plug (it would create a third leaf), and just put another window in your inner leaf. Give you nice natural light in the room. Or even better, DON'T put a window there, and just have your inner-leaf drywall there. You could even hang fake curtains across the outer window to hide that, so from the outside it would look like a normal window.

Re: speakers, I do plan on soffit mounting the good speakers when I get them

Good! Then you need to figure those into the design for the CR. If you go with the above idea of not putting a window in your inner leaf, then you'll have plenty of space for soffits.

In the mean time I thought it might be prudent to fix the rear corners with traps

You'll certainly need those! It's a small room, so you will need lots of bass trapping. But one of your rear corners has a door in it, right where the trapping should be...

However, it would seem that my builder needs convincing. He seems adamant that Brick -> Air -> Insulation -> Double Gyprock ... will be ok.

It will for the outside... provided that it is part of a complete five-sided (plus floor), sealed 2-leaf MSM system! Which is not what I see on the plans. Some parts have that, but some don't. It needs to go all the way around, all four outer walls, PLUS the ceiling. You need two leaves on all sides (except the floor, which is concrete slab on grade IIRC?)

Do you mind if I email your post to him?

Sure! By all means! Just throw in an extra bottle of "Dimple"! :)

Oh, also, construction is kinda well under way. The framing (standard) has been done as has the brickwork.

Ooops! Well, the brickwork doesn't need moving, of course, but some of the framing obviously does. Hopefully most of it can stay where it is, and only some parts will need to be moved. Once again, photos and a SketchUp model would help greatly to understand where you are, and figure out what can and can't be done easily.

I've come to the conclusion that it may as well be done properly if its going to be done at all.

You bet! That's what my Dad always said, many years ago, when I was a kid: "A job worth doing, is worth doing well.". Which means that you have some tough decisions to take, on halting the construction in that room, and moving some of the framing around to fix your problems. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news about your room ratio, but the good news is that it CAN be fixed, and it sounds like it's not too late to fix it. - Stuart -