New Loft Studio Design Help - "Animal Avenue"

Hello. Of course, I must deeply thank absolutely everyone that has helped bring this forum to where it is today. I started reading and loving about 4 1/2 years back and I'm delighted to say it's about that time for me to....to....to build...FINALLY. I am terrified and prepared for ridicule. Now that that's outa the way.....the novel: SIMPLE OVERVIEW: I live in Brooklyn, NY. The lady and I got ourselves a decent size corner loft to both live and work in. Corner meaning 2 sides being floor to ceiling windows. Yay. Unfortunately it is for the most part one big box, so I need to respect any space "reserved" for living/bedroom/her workspace, etc. My ultimate goal is to practice, record AND mix all in one room best treated and built to do so. I emphasize "best" b/c of several constraints soon to be mentioned. Although I'd LOVE a true room-within-a-room, it is perhaps not my best option mostly due to space. Currently where I stand nothing has been physically built. I'm still in the design phase and itching to start buying supplies already. I have a Sketchup model of my empty loft ready to go. What's holding me back? Well after so many, many great things I've learned from this forum and many other sources I've reached a point where I need a second (or thousands more) opinion and some confidence. I've made several possible plans on SmartDraw (good 'ol days?) but haven't really found the one...or have I? Frankly, my brain is racked. And the more thought i put into to it, the blurrier my vision gets. Literally, too. :shock: I AM LOUD: I am loud. I will be playing drums and electric guitars daily. Very fortunately, the building I live in was an industrial factory building turned residential lofts. It's very very fortunate b/c the building is notoriously filled with artist and musicians alike, and notorious for being A-okay with noise. Some tenants have shows in their units, maybe thoughtfully placed on weekends, but none the less it is am amplified concert. This obviously raises concern with stopping noise from getting in. However, I am the corner unit, so I have just 1 neighbor. And from a brief evaluation it seems they are quiet as can be! Though I still have another neighbor across the hall, they are not musicians and any loud enough noise from them I'd assume would be more of a flanking issue than anything else. I pray they're not setting off bombs or have 100 people doing jumping jacks daily. Which is worse? Wouldn't be surprised with these Brooklyn loft parties. So why don't i just setup and get the show on the road already in this "make-noise" building? Well, I'd like to be outa everyone's hair, especially the lady in the house, and specially the cats. In fact I did some research and found that cats typically go deaf anyway, but lets not rush thing here! :lol: Like i said, I am loud, I will be playing daily, for hours. I hope. DETAILS OVERVIEW: Okay. I'm just gonna spit it all out. The Space: (p.s. avoid this rant by looking below, or opening my sketchup file) As mentioned, the space in which I can actually build is limited in my big box loft. The whole loft is essentially a 23' 2" by 28' 1" box. The longer length being North to South. Almost-floor-to-ceiling windows on the South wall and East wall (window sill is about 2 feet high, but irrelevant to the studio design). The kitchen area takes up about 20% of this space in the NorthEast Corner off this box, from the North wall it is approx 11' 6" and from the East wall exactly 9' 5 3/4". The entire kitchen is on a concrete slab raised above the floor about 1", and suffice it to say is in it's own section separated by drywall all around that is 5 1/2" thick including the framing. The kitchen measurements are from the North and East walls to the end of its parallel walls on the side facing South and West (the kitchen is just a bit more complex than all this but again irrelevant to the studio design). Now, the main/entrance/front door (only one door in unit) is to the left of this kitchen and on the North wall. It is a 36" metal door with a 2" metal frame around it. From the West wall the left door frame starts at 9' 3" and finishes at the end of the other door frame 40" after that or at 12' 7". The door is about 6' 10" tall. So, (still with me?) 2" to the left of the Left door frame and still on the North wall is the door buzzer. It is 5" wide and about 8" tall. From the bottom of the buzzer it is about 4' high on the North wall. Then on the on the West wall there is a steel I-bar that is 8" wide and 9" deep. Measuring from the north wall the I-bar starts at 6' 4" and ends at 7' (8" later). Again, it juts out from the West wall 9". Everything other than the kitchen is hard wood floors, that seem a bit creaky after years of college-party-beer spilled I'm sure. The ceiling is 11' high and covered in that tin textured sheeting stuff that I hate, but is expensive and beautiful apparently? I tried to find out what was above this sheeting, and it was seemingly difficult, so based on what I found I'd suggest it was 2x12 wood beams and then perpendicular metal support for a concrete floor/subfloor. The wall to my neighbor's and hallway (entire West & North wall) is a layer of 5/8" drywall- 3 5/8" metal framing w/ a white paper-faced insulation (probably similar to R19)- another layer of 5/8" drywall. And lastly(?), I'm on the 3rd floor. I know.... :shock: A flanking issue on crack I suppose? I can't tell what's underneath my wood floors but I'd assume and hope it's a concrete slab involved subfloor in respects to what's above me. Also, in the category of 3rd floor fear I'm suspect of the weight I'll be adding to the unit, I know you're all worried. I'm certainly not floating the floor, but a drum riser may be in plan? I also definitely intend on building a ceiling, i really hope. More on this in my question's bracket... Of course you could simply avoid all the run-on's above and take a look at my Sketchup Drawings & File. It is to the most possible scale I can mentally afford right now. :o The area where the studio will go is so extremely to scale, it's painful. (in the pics below you'll notice a light switch, circuit panel, outlet, and sprinkler pipes that aren't described above, but are exactly to scale in placement and size.) And as I knew it would, my Sketchup file far exceeds the 500Kb limit. So here's the file available to download via a 3rd party storage: 248 McKibben 3B.skp I must mention that in the file there are multiple layers appropriately labeled, and a quick sketch of a a possible room (that may be too small). The Actual Space: So as mentioned, it is a big ol' box and I must commit to leaving dedicated areas for a living room, bedroom, and separate work area for my partner. We have agreed on this 3 area principle, using realistic estimates for size fairness. Making things more difficult, we decided the bed room should be part of the window-ed walls and the living room should be in the corner of the window-ed walls. The most sensible thing we've approached is a layout in the form labeled above in the first pic. :oops: That said, the actual space I have to work with is about 13' x 12'8". HOWEVER, due to the nature of our most logical(?) layout my studio area has the front/entrance door "in" it. To get around that makes my ACTUAL actual space limited to about 8' 6" x 13'. Perhaps a blessing in disguise avoiding troublesome room modes? Some semi-concrete numbers to avoid being vague: AVAILABLE AREA TO BUILD: 8' 7" x 13'8" to outside wall finish. eeesh, it can still be a bit more complex than that, based on the layout angles. Stay with me. THE PLAN: Ok.... Going back to my GOAL: I want to create one room that I can record and mix in. What I've taken into consideration and/or intend on doing and/or completely abandoning b/c I'm starting to lose it!... in no particular order: Room Ratio Based on the interesting info posted here http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=3148 and a reference on this and other forums that suggest "the darker the area the better" I've decided to use 1:1.17:1.43. Because neither of my available area dimensions permit for a higher "best" ratio I chose this smaller one. I acknowledge that it's impractical to find a "perfect" ratio, and I'm aware of the indifference once walls are splayed and are no longer perfectly rectangular. I'll be using the "fit a rectangle into it" approach. I'd rather a functional room, over a non-functional amazing ratio room. Splaying 6 degrees on the left and right walls, and 12 on the ceiling, starting low going high all the way to the back. Yes, I'm building a ceiling. Weight Scientifically I have no idea, but from an overly optimistic outlook I'd say it's structurally permissible considering it was once an industrial factory for many years. I am not floating the floor. Windows and Doors No windows, 1 Door. Solid-core wood. Walls & Ceiling Hmmm, lots of fun.... Since it's going in a corner there are 2 existing walls, which are 5/8 | 3 5/8 metal stud+fluffly insul | 5/8. I figure that's probably up to some BS STC residential standard, and I'm definitely not about to tear down my side of drywall to add more space, RC it, sound clip it, replace w/ a denser rigid insulation, and/or result in losing more "me" space notably because I don't own, I rent. I decided I'll add another layer of 5/8" using Green Glue. I feel I should mostly be concerned with low-freq transmission, with these 2 walls that side my neighbors and the hallway. Obey two-leafs and make it better, right? As for the walls to be built, (only 2 theoretically) to save on space and money I've decided to use 2 layers 5/8 | 3 5/8 metal stud+oc 703+RC | 1 layer 5/8. A total wall thickness of about 5 5/8" depending on the RC width or a slight difference in the metal stud width, which I am currently not familiar with standard sizes. Width, with, width... 10 times fast. Ceiling will be 1 maybe 2 layers 5/8 | 3 5/8 metal stud+insulation of some sort, possibly avoiding 703 or Rockwool due to budget. There WILL be support for the ceiling using a form of wire hung from the existing ceiling. I'm on the 3rd floor, I know I know I know. Electrical Drumroll please........I have 1 outlet in 'my' area. Yes, 1 as in "one". LUCKILY, the service panel is also the ONE thing in 'my' area, thus it's been easy to over look this issue. I can run another line from a new stronger breaker wired and rated appropriately. To clarify, the panel is on the existing wall that will only be covered by another layer of 5/8. Easy, right? Wrong? Ventilation None. I won't have AC. I've considered that this may be futile beyond just my comfort level. I'd doubt moisture could be and issue on the 3rd floor. I've also considered getting a portable AC if I start melting, in addition to the existing Window AC out in the living room area. Won't be noiseless, that's for sure. I'm willing to revert to the good 'ol on/off record/stop. It's only hot 3 months outa the year, I can deal. All in One Room I have plenty of gear plus instruments to make things really tight fitting. I fully understand the consequences of trying to track and mix in the same room. Luckily there's lots of storage options to put instruments elsewhere when it comes time for critical mixing. Fortunately so, my rig is somewhat "on wheels" and can be moved out of the room for specific tracking needs, maybe. I know it all seems so foolish but for what I need I think it seemingly works. Far more on this in my questions bracket... Room Size is Small Considering that I want to stick to my ratio, or any ratio, it REALLY limits the overall size of the room, specifically b/c one ratio is fixed to a max of 8' 7". In the back of my head is the devil screaming, "it's not worth it". IS it the devil? The room will be generally considered a small room, and the thought of tracking AND mixing in it are frightening. Acoustical issues due to size that small, that I suppose can be treated, are my real worries. Also much more on this in my questions.... 2 Rooms? Since the room is so small I've thought to make 2 rooms and make one even smaller. Perhaps a tiny tiny CR that is pretty much a dead closet, to benefit a bigger LR. This, however, infringes upon my budget. Boy would I love to find I didn't have enough drywall, framing, and a door. More for the questions bracket..... Value Ah yes....how much do I care? Alot actually. I mean, it feels like I wrote the memoirs of life. And hopefully not all for nothing. Staying on topic, if I ABSOLUTELY had to chose I'd much rather a proper mixing room than a live room. I can always get creative with the recording space and I usually do anyway. I find it more valuable to have a great mixing environment, where others may not agree, and I am limited in options. Be that as it may, I need to fit drums plus instruments in there for rehearsing. Safety Don't scold me, and please don't say the P word.....puh...puh...permits. As cavalier and careless it may seem, I'm pretty well building-knowledgeable and I will be safe; UNLIKE the majority of 'hipster' occupants who build poorly constructed rooms with loft bed upon loft bed up to the 14' ceiling, extremely against code. BTW, I had to devote 2 weeks to demo such building malpractice in my loft before move-in. I MUST point out that it is strangely difficult to tear down a poorly built room over a correctly built one. Ah, venting. BUDGET $: $1000. $1400 max. $1500 I have died. Slim? It is one room after all, and 2 walls essentially already exist? We shall see, I'm willing to be flexible. :? . Oh, and I've already figured those numbers based on previous experiences with budgets and how they tend to ...say...double overnight. There are as a matter of fact WAY too many cool tools at Home Depot. Oh, this budget does NOT include any post treatment 'in' the room. That's a whooooole other post for sometime 3 years from now. Whew! Did I leave anything out? .....oh, yes... QUESTIONS: I must start out by saying that I am so sorry for the extremely, overwhelmingly long and boring post. Who knew you could rant on and on about building 1 frickin room. I feel a little out of place for this, wishing I had more to offer in terms of space and rooms. I'm not even soffit mounting my monitors. :cry: I'm really tackling as much as I can in one giant post for the mere purpose of reference, FOR MYSELF. I'm burnt out and practically can't remember which ideas I've settled on. I'm troubled as to whether I should have posted here or in the construction section. I'd like to have a pretty concrete plan before the first screw is tapped. Due to the length of content I'd only expect and respect any replies solely toward my questions bracket. Oh boy, the old lady's getting antsy, "when are you gonna build?!" Here we go...(in no particular order)

• I'm not floating a floor but would like to implement a drum riser to semi-heal vibration/flanking issues. Considering weight I'd want to avoid mass, but focus more on decoupling by having the riser float on neoprene. Will this really help TL at any freq?
• Should I splay the ceiling 12 degrees ALL the way to the back top wall? I've seen designs for vaulted ceilings that stop at a sort of midpoint, and sometimes pitches back down. I imagine it makes building more complicated and I'd love to avoid that. ALL the way back ok?
• Biggest killer: CR vs. LR, but in one room. I need symmetry AND asymmetrics in one room that IS the room. IMPOSSILE. Am I nuts? What are my best options? As I mentioned, I'd rather a great mixing room, but to stay anywhere near a good ratio with one dimension fixed to 8' 7" I'm stuck with a terribly small room that seems it couldn't possibly fit drums and more, plus more gear, and then some more. IMPOSSIBLE. Must I completely abandon ratios? This is where I need most help, and why I have no dimensional plans thus far. Any creative ideas around this would be so greatly appreciated. OH, I've thought to just have the Front/Entrance Door 'in' my studio, but I've ruled it a bad idea for various reasons. That door is killing me right now.
• 1 : 1.17 : 1.43 ? Bad idea? Currently that gives me, or rather, restricts me down to 8'7" x 12' 3.25" with a 10' 1/2" ceiling. And that's some inside & outside dimensions together, which need to be adjusted to scale once I figure out what the exact new walls' thicknesses will be. AND, when I change the length (12'...) to 14' it seems that I"ll end up having to deal with treating the same freq's that I'd have to treat from my original ratio anyway. This mere 2' gain would be beneficial to fit more gear in. Can I stray this far from ratios? Am I slowly answering my own questions? Btw, this is my reference http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
• Is it a bad idea to track in a symmetrical room? I figure it will be treated for mixing, so that it may compliment tracking as well? Truthfully, I will probably always record drums in the living room unless demoing or something. Guitars and vocals is what would be most used in the CR/LR combo room.
• Is building a second room a bad/good idea? If I do, the CR would have to be so small it would be a pod for mixing, fitting my body, my chair, and my rig, that's it. At the cost and treatment siding on 'deaden everything due to small size' I may as well spend $200 on GREAT headphones and mix only on those, which I do not want. I only say it would have to be so small so it can fit within the layout I have, which I then have to build another room still big enough for drums, etc. Is it too costly and impractical to my situation?
• RC or Soundclips a good idea for my new walls? I've read far too much that pro's and con's RC. I swear I'll be careful to avoid 'short outs'. Soundclips I fear may exceed my budget. How much better are they?
• 703 or Rockwool in the new walls? I should be most concerned with low-freq TL, I assume (kick drum, bass cab, etc). I know there's data printed, I've seen it, but I was wondering if I could get a user response?
• Can I further decouple the 2 new walls by first resting the metal track for the studs on neoprene? Beneficial? Pointless? Dangerous? I figure, floated walls....floated drum riser...hmmm....magically floated room without floating it, for the drums anyway? Thinking back, I somewhere remember Greenglue's site, section on flanking, caulking under the track for the studs. Caulking vs Neoprene?
• 2 layers 5/8 | 3 5/8 metal stud+oc 703+RC | 1 layer 5/8. Better ideas for my budget? If money allows, maybe finishing with 1 layer 5/8+1 layer 1/2. I figure different drywall thicknesses to avoid similarity-resonance issues. Since the walls are on one track does that even matter? But wait, I'm using RC so does resonance matter? Back and forth and back again.
• Can you staggered stud with metal? Never really knew.
• Has it taken way longer than it should have to write this post? The answer is yes.

LAST NOTES: At this point I kind of just want someone to tell me exactly what to do. I hate to be lazy, but man is my brain tired. Or I kinda just want to win the lottery. Either would be just as fulfilling. It's sad that I almost already can't wait to move out of the city into the woods to claim a 600sq ft. basement of my very own! Why must NYC be so attractive to my current work aesthetic!?!? BTW, turns out there is a Wikipedia entry about my loft building. Hahaha. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/255_McKibbin And this is how I feel now: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

Hey Danny, and welcome! Great first post, by the way! It's good to see someone who read the rules and sticks to them, before posting! My comments:

I started reading and loving about 4 1/2 years back...

... And you started writing your first post around the same time, been working on it ever since? :) You must have, to get it to that length! But seriously, more info is definitely better! I guess you've seen more than just a few "first posts" from newbies, that basically say "Hi i want to build a studio for US$ 10 please show me how". I'm very glad to see that you ain't one of those!

Although I'd LOVE a true room-within-a-room, it is perhaps not my best option mostly due to space.

It might be your ONLY option, since you say that 1) the building is noisy, and 2) you want to track vocals and acoustic instruments! I can't see you being able to do that without good isolation, and the cheapest way of getting that is with MSM.

This obviously raises concern with stopping noise from getting in. However, I am the corner unit, so I have just 1 neighbor.

Well, yeah, but you also have floor, and ceiling, and two huge window-walls that face the street... Noise will be coming in on all six sides. Then there is flanking noise to consider too...

The area where the studio will go is so extremely to scale, it's painful.

Well, I downloaded your file and did a quick adjustment that might interest you: Just a rough idea. Basically I splayed the right side wall (facing the passage by the front door) which made the back wall longer (more towards the kitchen), and angled the other wall a bit too. Roughly 6 degrees (by eye, not accurate!). That helps to deal with the huge ugly steel I-beam in your left wall, but it is still a major problem. I also angled the ceiling a bit. I can't get it to 12 degrees, else the front would be too low, but I got about 9, I think, which will help. So your studio would have a more useful space like that. Just an idea. With the angled ceiling, you might be able to raise the back wall a bit, above the level of the sprinkler pipes and maybe get a better angle like that. Play with it a bit. Question: Where is your door into that room? Or can you teleport? :)

Room ratio ... I've decided to use 1:1.17:1.43.

Have you considered Sepmeyer's first ratio? 1 : 1.14 : 1.39 It looks like it might be a good one for you. You can swap "height" for "width" if you want.

I'd rather a functional room, over a non-functional amazing ratio room.

Yep. As long as you get reasonably close to a good ratio, you should be fine.

6 degrees on the left and right walls, and 12 on the ceiling, starting low going high all the way to the back. Yes, I'm building a ceiling.

Kind of like my pic, above? :) Question about your ceiling: You say that you have a concrete slab above you, then some metallic looking stuff. that's already two leaves. If you build a ceiling, that will be a third leaf. Bad. You might want to consider taking out that metallic stuff and storing it, so that you can put it back if you ever make that move to the country...

I am not floating the floor.

Smart move!

Scientifically I have no idea, but from an overly optimistic outlook I'd say it's structurally permissible considering it was once an industrial factory for many years.

You might still want to make friends with a structural engineer, and invite him over for beers one day...

and I'm definitely not about to tear down my side of drywall to add more space, RC it, sound clip it, replace w/ a denser rigid insulation, and/or result in losing more "me" space...

You might want to re-think that! You could probably GAIN space by doing just that, and you most certainly would gain isolation. Once again, your diagram shows a two-leaf single-stud wall going to your neighbor. Your studio wall will be a third leaf: Bad idea. Much, much better would be to take of the drywall on your side of that wall, use it to beef up the other side from within the wall, (between the studs), THEN build your studio wall, and build it "inside-out". You gain lots of space like that, and lots of isolation. If you leave, use the drywall that you take off your own studio as you dismantle it to put back on the studs of the "neighbor wall".

I feel I should mostly be concerned with low-freq transmission, with these 2 walls that side my neighbors and the hallway. Obey two-leafs and make it better, right?

Yep! except that you show a THREE-leaf design in your diagram, and Green Glue won't help much unless you also de-couple one side of the wall! Green Glue is not meant to isolate: It has practically no thickness one in place, and the surface mass is negligible. It does not isolate by itself. What it DOES do (and it does it very well) is to damp low frequency resonance in the wall, which gives a major boost in low frequency isolation on a properly built wall. But it doesn't isolate much by itself.

There WILL be support for the ceiling using a form of wire hung from the existing ceiling.

Get proper isolation hangers if you want to go that route, but you probably don't need to: Just span your inner leaf walls with joists, and hang the drywall under that. or even better. pout the drywall on TOP of that, for an inside-out ceiling. More space! for FREE!!!

I'm willing to revert to the good 'ol on/off record/stop. It's only hot 3 months outa the year, I can deal.

Well, maybe you can take the heat, but how long can you hold your breath? :) In order to work properly, your room must be hermetically sealed. Totally air-tight: Not even enough gap for light to shine through. And that is a SMALL room. There isn't much air in there to start with, and what little there is will get stale pretty fast in there. So unless you can figure out a way to breathe without oxygen, it ain't gonna be pleasant! At the very least, you need ventilation. Which implies ducts, fans, and silencers...

Since the room is so small I've thought to make 2 rooms and make one even smaller.

Bad idea! "Perhaps a tiny tiny CR that is pretty much a dead closet, ..." You can't mix in a dead closet....

I find it more valuable to have a great mixing environment, where others may not agree,

I ain't one of them "others"! I agree totally.

Should I splay the ceiling 12 degrees ALL the way to the back top wall? I've seen designs for vaulted ceilings that stop at a sort of midpoint, and sometimes pitches back down. I imagine it makes building more complicated and I'd love to avoid that. ALL the way back ok?

Yep! All the way back is great. It also gives you plenty of headroom on the rear wall-ceiling corner for a nice deep bass trap.

I need symmetry AND asymmetrics in one room that IS the room. IMPOSSILE.

Well, you don't NEED both, but you actually CAN have both if you really want them! You can track instruments just fine in a symmetrical space, but if you really DO want to have a non-symmetrical space, then just build some hinged panels on the walls that fold flat, and a couple of gobos on wheels. When you mix, fold up your hinged panels and stow your gobos to get symmetry, and when you track unfold your panels and "randomize" your gobos positions. Presto! Instant non-symmtery!

Currently that gives me, or rather, restricts me down to 8'7" x 12' 3.25" with a 10' 1/2" ceiling. And that's some inside & outside dimensions together, which need to be adjusted to scale once I figure out what the exact new walls' thicknesses will be.

Not really: Think: "Inside-out" construction. That gains you several inches around your room. It makes your studs irrelevant to the equation of wall thickness, and the only important factor then is the air gap in your MSM wals. If you take of the drywall on the existing neighbor wall, like I mentioned above, then that stud space in that wall becomes part of your MSM space..... :)

Is it a bad idea to track in a symmetrical room? I figure it will be treated for mixing, so that it may compliment tracking as well? Truthfully, I will probably always record drums in the living room unless demoing or something. Guitars and vocals is what would be most used in the CR/LR combo room.

Nope! Not a bad idea at all (as long as you don't mind the noise... :) )Like I mentioned above, you can do that, and still have some "character" and "color" in your room when tracking while also keeping it neutral for mixing, with movable panels and gobos. You can have "door" like panels, or even sliding panels, on the walls that cover up or uncover thick insulation. etc.

Is building a second room a bad/good idea?

Yep. Unless you can persuade your "other half" that there really is no need for a kitchen on your apartment, and turn the kitchen into the "other room"! :)

RC or Soundclips a good idea for my new walls?

Either will work, but that might not be the best way of doing things. In order to use RC you MUST take of the existing drywall. If not, then the air cavity is way too thin to be of any use, and you won't get any benefit. In fact, you will make matters worse as you will have built a really good three-leaf system... On the other hand, you COULD use RSIC clips and hat channel, which will give you the depth, but it will eat into your space even more, and you'll still have a really good three-leaf system... Those things only make sense if you take off the drywall, and attach them to the studs. Not to the existing drywall.

703 or Rockwool in the new walls? I should be most concerned with low-freq TL, I assume (kick drum, bass cab, etc). I know there's data printed, I've seen it, but I was wondering if I could get a user response?

It won't make a lot of difference either way, since the purpose of insulation in the cavity is to act as a damper in the MSM system. The insulation itself in an MSM system does not really absorb any particular frequency: it is only there to damp the cavity resonance, and it does that really well: Fluffy pink insulation or mineral wool work well in there. You don't need to go for expensive stuff: as long as it is open-cell insulation and the density is around 48 kg/m3, it will work fine.

Can I further decouple the 2 new walls by first resting the metal track for the studs on neoprene? Beneficial? Pointless? Dangerous?

That will help to seal the gap under the wall, but it won't really "float" your wall. For two reasons: 1) You still have to attach the sole plate to the floor somehow, and that largely short-circuits the neoprene. 2) Even if you don't attach the sole plate to the floor ( :shock: ) the chances are that your wall sill still not float, unless you do all the complicated mathematics and choose the exact right material for YOUR specific case, to make it float. This forum is littered with very short threads started by folks who came along to boast about "Gee. look how I floated my floor!", only to be told that there floor isn't actually floating at all, and that they just made things far worse by trying and failing... After hearing that, they normally don't have the intestinal fortitude to return and ask how to fix it. Because they know that the answer will be "Rip it all out and start again." Summary: Floating walls and floors is a major deal, needs careful calculations, careful selection of materials, and careful construction to make it work. The chances of getting it right by pure luck, just be shoving some rubber under the wall, are practically zero.

2 layers 5/8 | 3 5/8 metal stud+oc 703+RC | 1 layer 5/8.

Skip the 703, and go for the lowest cost insulation that will do the job. Most likely the usual pink fluffy fiberglass stuff, that is an absolute pain to work with! But it is cheap, at least. Save the 703 for interior treatment, where it can be used to best effect. Also, why are you planning to build a FOUR leaf system????? If you build all the walls and ceiling of your studio like that, you will have TERRIBLE low frequency isolation to the outside world! Four leaf is about as bad as you can get for low frequencies. Even worse than three leaf. - Stuart -

Wow. I mean...WOW. A million thank you's for replying so quickly. I must admit, I was looking forward to your help Stuart. Your sketch is great and pretty much where I'm headed. I think there's still some questions I may have... On to the goods: I laid out some tape today on the floor to play around with room dimensions, to get a real-life feel of what it may look like fitting all my stuff in there. Jeeeeeeze it's nice to be out of Sketchup for once and into...hmmm...reality? :lol: As I was shifting things around I came to realize how stubborn "ratios" can make me. I'm gonna have to treat the room like it or not, so I may as well REALLY go for practicality over ratio science. And the real goods: EX the 2 room idea. Totally need to reconsider ventilation, didn't realize that sound proofing is indeed air locking! I mean, I DID know that, but I kinda forgot amongst the other mathematical obsessions. WILL look into this next. Great suggestions with movable panels, etc to created "colored" rooms, that revert to neutral for mixing!

Have you considered Sepmeyer's first ratio? 1 : 1.14 : 1.39

Hilariously I haven't. I've been too busy sticking my nose in all the fuss about how there are ratios better than the master's even sought. Using their own formulas.(?) I feel I may be ball-parking since it's sort of close to the ratio I mentioned earlier (1 : 1.17 : 1.43) and I'm probably stretching the Length to my space-craving advantage anyway.

Noise will be coming in on all six sides.

Good point.

Question about your ceiling: You say that you have a concrete slab above you, then some metallic looking stuff. that's already two leaves.

The metal is a very thin sort of facade. Though it may still be a leaf, b/c it's certainly not porous enough to be considered air, it is pretty thin at 1/32" if not smaller. It covers the entire ceiling in my loft, kitchen included, and to take it off only in the area above my studio (with a ceiling built) I think might be pointless? It seems like an 'all or nothing' game with isolation, and taking off all of the metal down just isn't an option, and may need to be settled as compromise STRIKE 1.

You don't need to go for expensive stuff: as long as it is open-cell insulation and the density is around 48 kg/m3, it will work fine.

Amazing. I have a pretty good amount of 703 form past projects that I'm happy to hear should be saved for treatment. :yahoo:

Floating walls and floors is a major deal...

Whew, honestly I'm happy to do without it. However, what do you have to say for a drum riser focusing less on mass and more on decoupling via, of course, neoprene. Is the 'floating' (for lack of a better word) idea worth it? Engineer buddy or not, I'd be terrified to build a monstrous weighing riser on the 3rd floor in addition to my new room's weight and gear.

Also, why are you planning to build a FOUR leaf system?????

Not quite sure I understand how 4 leafs came about!?! Do you mean my 2 leafs, and then the 2 leafs of the actual apartment? If so, doesn't building a room AT ALL negate all the MSM rules. And if I build a room with an unfinished outside wall (the wall facing my living room, etc.) then that's 3 leafs? 2 layers 5/8" = M 3 5/8" metal stud+oc 703+RC = S 1 layer 5/8" = M ...the 'new walls'. Now using pink fluffly instead, of course. YAY.

You might want to re-think that! You could probably GAIN space by doing just that, and you most certainly would gain isolation. Once again, your diagram shows a two-leaf single-stud wall going to your neighbor. Your studio wall will be a third leaf: Bad idea. Much, much better would be to take of the drywall on your side of that wall, use it to beef up the other side from within the wall, (between the studs), THEN build your studio wall, and build it "inside-out". You gain lots of space like that, and lots of isolation. If you leave, use the drywall that you take off your own studio as you dismantle it to put back on the studs of the "neighbor wall".

Hmmm...very interesting with replacing 'my side' of the neighbor wall with the studio wall, if I leave. I like it. I think I may not have explained clearly my plan though. I can definitely see that 3 leafs WOULD be worse in low-freq TL, so I thought to use the existing wall AS a splayed wall by rotating the entire room 6 degrees appropriately. Adding another layer (without framing) of 5/8 to 'beef up' the existing drywall. And GreenGlue as the the adhesive for that 2nd layer. Although the GreenGlue seems pretty useless for this now that you've described it better. GG + Mass = Not so helpful GG + Mass + Decoupling = Great And you're suggestion would TOTALLY increase isolation, but that involves more $$$ and building I suppose, that I can't quite tell if it's within my budget just yet.

Either will work [RC or Sounclips], but that might not be the best way of doing things. In order to use RC you MUST take of the existing drywall.

Again I think a misunderstanding. And I have to blame myself for ranting on and on, it's confusing. I was referring to the 2 'new walls', since I plan on using the 'existing' walls as part of the room. The initial questions was as to which is better, especially since RC seems cheaper? In fact I should use GG on THIS wall, right? Hmmm...I'm realizing that even if I rotate the whole room to use the existing wall at an angle, this will still require the front wall to be removed on my side to avoid 3 leafs. In my defense, it's a smaller area to have to take off (vs the longer wall) AND it's the wall that has the ever so quiet hallway on the other side. Quieter than inside my apartment. :lol: This also raises an interesting thought: Using the 'existing wall/rotated room' keeps the hard surfaces symmetrical, but as far as mass is concerned it will NOT be symmetrical. In terms of the walls having different resonant freqs, how much can this really affect my symmetry/tonal balance? Have I gone off the deep end? Now that some questions have been answered I feel WAY better about the process! I definitely need to make a sketch with the new room, more confidently showing what I had in mind. Oh, and to average the ratio unto a splayed wall (non-rectangular) room, I find the midpoint for the wall and rotate from there. I think that's as mathematically average as I can get, or should I just rotate straight from the front CR wall?

You might still want to make friends with a structural engineer, and invite him over for beers one day...

Do friends finishing an architectural major count? Can work on stocking plenty of beer ASAP if so.

Unless you can persuade your "other half" that there really is no need for a kitchen on your apartment...

Beer from above may help. Again, your response is so greatly appreciated. -Danny

So I've made a few quick designs to get a rough idea of what the finished room shall look like. I decided to use Sepmeyer's first ratio (1 : 1.14 : 1.39), but for now this is a rough estimate just to see the biggest size room I could possibly build with out disturbing too much of our loft. I didn't realize before that splaying will GAIN me space, particularly b/c I need smaller space by the front wall and can utilize a larger space by the back wall. Gee that works out! Therefore, I chose (roughly) a 13' x 9' 2" room as the biggest I could build, (before spalying from the midpoint of the left and right walls). And this it what it looks like so far: The ceiling is splayed, and again it's just a rough idea to get some juices flowin. With the benefit of using the existing LEFT wall as a 6 degree splay, it still requires a tear down of MY SIDE of the EXISTING FRONT wall to avoid 3 leafs. The circuit panel for the entire unit is unfortunately part of this, which I've decided to pull out further and make it part of my new front wall (since it'll be so close anyway). All else fails I suppose I could make a panel door that THEN opens to the actual circuit panel, however this sounds dangerous if not already against code. And that's where I stand! Next: a 'to scale' and detail version of what's going on. i hope. Any input?

I didn't realize before that splaying will GAIN me space,

Yup! Ain't geometry wonderful! :) You could probably even build a shelf up above the front of your room, for a bit of extra storage space on the apartment ... (as long as you figure a way to keep things from falling on your inner leaf ceiling, which is only drywall! Mabe a metal grid over it?).

And this it what it looks like so far:

The reason I did not place the left wall parallel to the existing "neighbor" wall, is because of that huge ugly and complicating steel I-beam. I was trying to get it out of the room, because it is going to complicate things greatly if it is inside. You don't lose anything by rotating your room 6° clockwise, but you do get most of that beam outside your room, and I'm thinking that some kind of slight "kink" in the wall would deal with the rest of it. It cannot be there: it is part of the building structure, and part of your outer leaf, so it cannot be inside the inner leaf. You have to work around it somehow, and rotating the room to have your front wall parallel to the "door" wall of your apartment goes a long way to accomplishing that.

With the benefit of using the existing LEFT wall as a 6 degree splay, it still requires a tear down of MY SIDE of the EXISTING FRONT wall to avoid 3 leafs.

Yeeeeahhh.... and it ALSO requires the tear down of the inside of your existing LEFT wall (the "neighbor" wall) in order to avoid a three-leaf there! Don't forget that part...

The circuit panel for the entire unit is unfortunately part of this, which I've decided to pull out further and make it part of my new front wall (since it'll be so close anyway).

That sounds like a good plan, and that's what I'd do, but that will probably not be as easy as you are imagining it will be... :) Get an electrician to take a look at it, and give you his opinion on how feasible / expensive it will be to do that.

All else fails I suppose I could make a panel door that THEN opens to the actual circuit panel, however this sounds dangerous if not already against code.

That would be a good "plan B", and code probably does allow it, provided that it is accessible, properly marked, etc. The problem, however, would be making the little door massive enough and sealing it well enough to match the construction of the rest of that wall. It will be your weak link (acoustically) in that wall. Maybe a really thick glass door with a couple of good seals would do it? That would probably meet code, since it will be visible and accessible. But once again, check with a qualified electrician, to see what you can and cannot do, and how much it will cost you. - Stuart -