SO... here's whats going on inside my head. A couple acres, with hopefully minimal neighbors.... Now... the 'shell' if you will, will be made of corugatted metal in a quonset hut. --> http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/images/Structures/quonset%20web.jpg
---> http://www.steelmasterusa.com/galleries ... ages.html#
BUDGET> ~ 10k for slab, ~15k for metal shell,...wanna keep total under 35-40k...( still gonna need cost for elect hookup, and water/ amenities.........)..can do all labor myself, and have the tools. ---(minus the slab,)
...so you have a basic image of it...THat is the certainty w/concrete slab floor. so, I'm in need of 1) Dimensions (LxWxH) (i was thinking maybe 20x40x12'h ish..bigger ---probably with the sound levels...smaller? on a tight budget, so just enough is waht i want))-mind you the arched ceiling :) . 2) insulating how much etc, (i can apply spray on, &/or plastic bubble board ins. for ~ 20 R value on walls/ceilings., also what abouthe bare floor?)..o ya it 'might' be possible to bury the outer walls with dirt tho, rather laborous/..ok so its important to know what i will be doing in the studio so...
ROCK<BLUES< PSYCHEDELIC <ACOUSTIC<ELECTRIC<HARD<SOFT...so lots of variation, basically ,GUITAR__ 100w marshal half stak (maybe even full stack) cranked to 10, (yes with hearing protection b/c its dam loud) more 'room' micing than close micing (for all instruments) i want a deep heavy sound..clear.yet "Wall of Sound''.,. no distortion from the room).. BASS__ rig cranked to ten a least the volume of guitar rig..reallll low frequencies....DRUMS___(kit) same vol, (if not quieter actually) than guitar (~120-150db(snare) for drums)...PIANO___acoustic standard clasical stuff..ACOUSTIC____guitar, harp, flute, violin, percussion, sitar, etc etc.... I plan on doing a lot of overdubbing/ one track ata time.. but allso the 3peice guitar,bassdurms at once at full volume.. sound level----whisper to ~160db continuos -LOUD..if frequ is a must..lets just say the range of human hearing..20hz-20khz? is that it?ihonestly dont remember....there can be some bleed through the building..BUT..plan on having someone that absolutely hates your music living 100-yards away
control room....
was think of making it a seperate addition inside the studio room maybe like 8'h? off the end wall-maybe 20'w(width of quonset) x 10l? i know visable dimensions are no good but?. nothing otoo big, enough for comp/workstationg, midi, monitors, couch.uuhh idk, wires everywhere... maybe a window from controlrom to studio.
BUT,..another thing, i will be play9ing and recording/editing/mastering at t he same time, so if its possible to have control of one room wile in the other???
EQUIPMENT> will all be high end ish in terms of instrumetns...mics....sm57s 58s, dunno for omni directional, dunno for large diaphragm ribbon, not finished with drum mics, but at least one of each type of mic, good quality. [dymnamic,capacitor...in omni, super cardiod, cardiod, figeru 8, dunno what else is importatn)
recording through ProTOols LE..probably-up for suggestions if you wanna- so a digi 003r for preamps...i gues thatas all you need??
..SO..what i need from you is.. whats going to be the ideal room for this kinda setup, using the above music styles/instruemnt, and a quonset hut/ arch metal building ?????...think of yaknow...hendrix, beatles, zeppelin, doors, sabbath, floyd, mozart, bach,, jazz, blues,hardrock, some metal,..etc...a FULL spectrum of all genres of music...so you need a room to handle the volume/freq levels, but not so dead as to kill the atmosphere of acoustics...wow...pretty tough i think...any help is greatly, greatly appreciated..should be achallenge i think. :D ...and experienced studio engineers and acousitcal enginneers' thoughts would be great...THANKS again. ....if your idea h goes over budget...it 'may' be possible just lemme hear it..under budget=yay pay the months bill...also..what matierial would be good for rounding the corners where the floor meets the wall? is carpet good for wall absorptioon? thanks.s
-thanks.
STUDIO FROM SCRATCH! from raw land to pro-studio. HELP!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11904.
There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post (click here). Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will not reply if you don't do what is written in that post. Many others who are very helpful, will not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes.
umm, how do u delete a post? (sorry for wastin space_)
thanks, i read too sloppily the first time. EDITED>There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post (click here). Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will not reply if you don't do what is written in that post. Many others who are very helpful, will not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes.
Forget about your gear for a sec. This is a building/ acoustic site.
Find a design that will work in the space you have.
As for the steel shell- i hate to say it (as that is what I'm building in) but you will get little to no isolation.
Steel is very expensive at the moment.
You will still have to build the internal walls $$$
So for 15K, I'd look into building with another material. With the doors, roller or barn, the gaps under the shell, it will be 15K down the drain. Not sure what kind of mice and ants and bugs and dust that will make it's way in, in your neck of the woods?
The steel shell will be a very expensive "leaf" that will still require 2 additional leaf to get what you are after.
wow, hmmmmm, i was wondering if the steel whould sound reall 'tinny' and hollow,.def was not aware of gaps under shell.:( for the door, was gonna have both end walls then cutta normal door out on one side, which would leead into controal booth, then that lead into studio...i really liked the idea of the arched ceiling tho., and thought that by liningin the ouster/ineeer shell (since it isnt striaght and has triangular "notches" if you will) with ply,and/ or fibergalss board would cause the sound to trap its self behind the walls?? then rounding the walls/floor 90*angles, with bendt ply,.. and basst raips in all corners....rounded ply again for the flat end walls.... and layering as much acoustic board around the flats on walls....with vulcanized rubber floor over concrete, then rubber mats 1/2in \thick/.... burt for what i m doing i need the SPACE..and figured this is the chepest rofff over my head..............how your experience going? ---hey! whata bouta outdoor studio?? eh? lol ud' need about a 5squ mils o f land...... any idea how far 150+ db goes?..tilll it gets to 60db..then the neighbors cant legally do anythin.g ha.Forget about your gear for a sec. This is a building/ acoustic site. Find a design that will work in the space you have. As for the steel shell- i hate to say it (as that is what I'm building in) but you will get little to no isolation. Steel is very expensive at the moment. You will still have to build the internal walls $$$ So for 15K, I'd look into building with another material. With the doors, roller or barn, the gaps under the shell, it will be 15K down the drain. Not sure what kind of mice and ants and bugs and dust that will make it's way in, in your neck of the woods? The steel shell will be a very expensive "leaf" that will still require 2 additional leaf to get what you are after.
If 150dbA was at 1", then about a half mile!---hey! whata bouta outdoor studio?? eh? lol ud' need about a 5squ mils o f land...... any idea how far 150+ db goes?..tilll it gets to 60db..then the neighbors cant legally do anythin.g ha.
How far away would the listener have to be to keep his or her head from exploding?
Well, at that level your entire body would be experiencing intense, excruciating pain, you'd be suffering from extreme nausea and vomiting and other slightly less pleasant symptoms, as you writhed on the ground, screaming in abject agony. So you might want to consider adding another room on to your studio: a fully staffed, fully equipped hospital intensive care unit!If 150dbA was at 1"
Well, to get that kind of level you'd need a really large line array or a massively huge stack (which acts as a line array anyway), so we are talking about a cylindrical wavefront here, not spherical, and therefore the level drops off at 3 db per doubling of distance... So 10 kilometers away (6 miles) you are down to about 94 dBA, and still roughly ten thousand times too loud... You need a bigger piece of land! ( Probably something about the size of Antarctica should do it... ) :) - Stuart - (PS. Point of reference: When they fire it, the 120mm canon on top of the M1-A1 tank (that big long round tube thing sticking several meters out the front) produces a peak sound level of around 143 db, measured 50m away...) (PPS, in 1997, researchers fitted twenty 12" 1000 watt woofers into a minivan, and feed them with 19,000 watts of pure sine wave power. They measured 156 dB inside the van.) (PPPS. I also found a reference to an unidentified 1983 rock concert which used ten massive stacks of speakers, and 400,000 watts of power feeding them. They supposedly measured 162 dB coming out of that lot during the sound check. So you might want to build a small power station next to your studio, if you need that kind of level. 400 kilowatts is just a little bit more than you can get from a normal outlet in your house....) (PPPPS. To produce that kind of level, this is the speaker you need It would make a great sub-woofer! It has excellent response from 10 Hz to 500 Hz, and can produce 145 dB. The military use it to simulate the sounds of a battle field, with bombs exploding and that kind of thing. :) )any idea how far 150+ db goes?..tilll it gets to 60db..
.yep,messed up there.
ok, so the sound halves for every doubled distance.....but what is the distance of the first -3db drop?
...o and everyone thatnks for the input...and no, my head has not exploded yet, so i a m not playing at 160db lo.l
:| dunno how to delete old posts still,...hmm
Hi,
It will cost more in the long run if you need isolation and want to use a metal building. It may be impossible. It will never be a pro studio. Metal buildings, for the most part, are designed to be light weight shelters. Do you want a building that is functional and that you can take pride in for years to come? Or a half assed rush job that never fulfills it's role and becomes a white elephant storage shed?
Be realistic, what do you need? Will a metal building meet those needs?
Steve
..yea thanks....just wanted ot know if its possible, with all hte added methods above ^...rounding corners, adding ply, sound board etc. oh HEY!, dont forget you ~can~ bury the damn thing.......now tell me that isnt isolated!/insolated. now wadya say??eh?Hi, It will cost more in the long run if you need isolation and want to use a metal building. It may be impossible. It will never be a pro studio. Metal buildings, for the most part, are designed to be light weight shelters. Do you want a building that is functional and that you can take pride in for years to come? Or a half assed rush job that never fulfills it's role and becomes a white elephant storage shed? Be realistic, what do you need? Will a metal building meet those needs? Steve
I think if you take this more seriously the rest of the people here will take you seriously and probably help you with your studio.
A good start would be taking care of your spelling. this ain't a chat room! :wink:
.....i'm dead serious.....how is an underground studio not a good idea? I'm sure its cheaper than those block walled, double walled w/ inner stud/drywall and dropped ceiling,floating floors, etc...Excuse me for being original. I was thinking of digging a lake/pond on my property anyway, and just put the excess dirt up as high as i can...I've seen them (quonsets) buried from top to bottom, ---above ground--no flooding issues...You don't have to be the typical, same old studio design, everyones working with some sorta box trying to break up the "boxiness'' of it to achieve better sound qualities, whereas a quonset has a very nice shape to it.....i have all tools, and builing knowledge to do it, so just need a little help as to 'how' it will work, not that it won't work--unless of course a layer of earth around the whole thing isnt good enough, then it's pretty much done for...and any *tips* /advice from experience...if my idea won't work, why don't you give mee an idea that will?? or some guidance in the right direction.as for the spelling, please dont let it distract you. --thank you.I appreciate your concernI think if you take this more seriously the rest of the people here will take you seriously and probably help you with your studio. A good start would be taking care of your spelling. this ain't a chat room! :wink:
Well, there is nothing wrong with the concept of building a studio underground, provided that you are a long, long way from any source of ground-borne impact noise (heavy machinery directly coupled to the ground). But you did mention the site as being in the middle of a large field, so that should be OK, I guess.
Yes, earth makes a good isolation and damping material, so theoretically you could build something underground, or on the ground and covered with a couple of meters of earth all around, and get great isolation. But a metal shed (what you originally proposed) is not going to work for that, due to the huge amount of weight, and the huge stresses and pressure caused by the earth around the building. I'm not a structural engineer at all, but I know enough to realize that there is no way that your average metal shed is going to support the pressure of hundreds of tons of earth backfill around it,. and dozens more tons of earth on top of it.
There's a reason why practically all modern studios follow the same basic design, and end up looking similar for the most part. The reason is called "acoustics". It turns out that the rough outline you see here and in most other places where you have PROFESSIONAL studio designers present, is because that shape happens to be about the best possible shape acoustically, for a recording studio. A Quonset hut is getting close to the worst possible shape, since it has a curved concave roof, which tends to focus sound. It is basically half of a cylinder. The only worse shape I can think of, acoustically, is a sphere. Sure, you could install sacks of acoustic treatment to deal with that, and reduce the effects of the acoustic nightmare curved ceiling, but it would not be cheap. Or you could build another room inside the Quonset, with a flat ceiling, designed to have good acsoutic properties, and.... Oh wait a sec! But that would make it a "room within a room", so you wouldn't need the earth around it for isolation, and it would be a rectangular shaped structure with splayed walls and a sloped ceiling!!!! Geee.... that sounds familiar.... :) Get the point?You don't have to be the typical, same old studio design, everyones working with some sorta box trying to break up the "boxiness'' of it to achieve better sound qualities, whereas a quonset has a very nice shape to it.....
Like I said, the layer of earth will work, if it is thick enough, but making it thick enough means that you have a pressure, stress and weight issue, which simply cannot be supported by the structure of an ordinary Quonset hut. It will collapse under the weight, or be crushed from the outside inwards by the pressure.i have all tools, and builing knowledge to do it, so just need a little help as to 'how' it will work, not that it won't work--unless of course a layer of earth around the whole thing isnt good enough,
Look around! This forum is absolutely chock full of very well documented design and construction threads, where numerous people have already walked the path that you plan to take, and laid out their ideas, questions, plans and construction for the rest of the world to see. You can earn from their successes and failures for free. Yes, there have been failures too, mostly by people who come here AFTER they already built it on their own, using their own ideas, their own concepts, their own styles, without learning about acoustics and studio construction first. They either come here to say "It's finished but it sounds terrible, how do I fix it?". Or to say "Look what a great job I did, aren't I clever?". In both cases, the advise is usually along the lines of "Why on earth did you build it THAT way? That's a terrible design, acoustically! Tear it down and start again if you want to build a studio that actually works.".if my idea won't work, why don't you give mee an idea that will??
Unfortunately, it does. Many folks come here from all over the world, apologizing for their poor English since it is not their first language, but you can see that obviously they are making an extreme effort to do their very best, since they want their message to be understood. I have NEVER seen anyone here mention a word to those folks about their English, precisely because they are doing the best they know how, despite not speaking the language. But folks whose native language IS English have no excuse. Curiously enough they guy who suggested that your spelling and style could use some work is actually one of those people who I am talking about! He lives in Chile, like I do, and his native language is Spanish, yet he makes a great effort to post in impeccable English! OK, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that everyone here should only post in perfect Oxford English that would impress the Queen herself, but as studio builders we do need to be clear. Practically everyone here does take the time and make the effort to communicate as clearly as possible, and for a very good reason: Building a recording studio requires precision and accuracy. A simple misunderstanding of a slang term could mean the difference between success and failure. If I suggest that you should "stick a bord on the woden pole thingiess, and put a fluff bhind it", you most probably would do the wrong thing entirely. But if I say "Nail a sheet of 5/8" gypsum board to the 2x4 studs, and install 4 inches of pink fiberglass insulation behind it" then you pretty much cannot go wrong. So for "guidance in the right direction" I'd suggest that if you want to build a good studio, start by reviewing the many threads here written by people who have already done exactly that (or are in the process of doing it), and learn from them. then design your studio carefully, post questions that you might run into, refine the design, ask more questions, refine it and check it again, think it through carefully, spend some more time designing it, then when you have a totally fool-proof design, accurate down to the last nail, only then start building. - Stuart -or some guidance in the right direction.as for the spelling, please dont let it distract you.
... :) wow thanks...i was REAL wrong in my thinking of *round surfaces being the best...i honestly thought a sphere would have the ~best~ acoustics..haha, i thought it would be -perfectly- balanced..resonating sound equally throughout. honestly thanks for your help. I'm glad i found this forum, or i'd be lost...and the spelling, honestly, i'm jsut trying to save keystrokes, i have arthritis and anything helps. so i apologize if its a real concern.Well, there is nothing wrong with the concept of building a studio underground, provided that you are a long, long way from any source of ground-borne impact noise (heavy machinery directly coupled to the ground). But you did mention the site as being in the middle of a large field, so that should be OK, I guess. Yes, earth makes a good isolation and damping material, so theoretically you could build something underground, or on the ground and covered with a couple of meters of earth all around, and get great isolation. But a metal shed (what you originally proposed) is not going to work for that, due to the huge amount of weight, and the huge stresses and pressure caused by the earth around the building. I'm not a structural engineer at all, but I know enough to realize that there is no way that your average metal shed is going to support the pressure of hundreds of tons of earth backfill around it,. and dozens more tons of earth on top of it.There's a reason why practically all modern studios follow the same basic design, and end up looking similar for the most part. The reason is called "acoustics". It turns out that the rough outline you see here and in most other places where you have PROFESSIONAL studio designers present, is because that shape happens to be about the best possible shape acoustically, for a recording studio. A Quonset hut is getting close to the worst possible shape, since it has a curved concave roof, which tends to focus sound. It is basically half of a cylinder. The only worse shape I can think of, acoustically, is a sphere. Sure, you could install sacks of acoustic treatment to deal with that, and reduce the effects of the acoustic nightmare curved ceiling, but it would not be cheap. Or you could build another room inside the Quonset, with a flat ceiling, designed to have good acsoutic properties, and.... Oh wait a sec! But that would make it a "room within a room", so you wouldn't need the earth around it for isolation, and it would be a rectangular shaped structure with splayed walls and a sloped ceiling!!!! Geee.... that sounds familiar.... :) Get the point?You don't have to be the typical, same old studio design, everyones working with some sorta box trying to break up the "boxiness'' of it to achieve better sound qualities, whereas a quonset has a very nice shape to it.....Like I said, the layer of earth will work, if it is thick enough, but making it thick enough means that you have a pressure, stress and weight issue, which simply cannot be supported by the structure of an ordinary Quonset hut. It will collapse under the weight, or be crushed from the outside inwards by the pressure.i have all tools, and builing knowledge to do it, so just need a little help as to 'how' it will work, not that it won't work--unless of course a layer of earth around the whole thing isnt good enough,Look around! This forum is absolutely chock full of very well documented design and construction threads, where numerous people have already walked the path that you plan to take, and laid out their ideas, questions, plans and construction for the rest of the world to see. You can earn from their successes and failures for free. Yes, there have been failures too, mostly by people who come here AFTER they already built it on their own, using their own ideas, their own concepts, their own styles, without learning about acoustics and studio construction first. They either come here to say "It's finished but it sounds terrible, how do I fix it?". Or to say "Look what a great job I did, aren't I clever?". In both cases, the advise is usually along the lines of "Why on earth did you build it THAT way? That's a terrible design, acoustically! Tear it down and start again if you want to build a studio that actually works.".if my idea won't work, why don't you give mee an idea that will??Unfortunately, it does. Many folks come here from all over the world, apologizing for their poor English since it is not their first language, but you can see that obviously they are making an extreme effort to do their very best, since they want their message to be understood. I have NEVER seen anyone here mention a word to those folks about their English, precisely because they are doing the best they know how, despite not speaking the language. But folks whose native language IS English have no excuse. Curiously enough they guy who suggested that your spelling and style could use some work is actually one of those people who I am talking about! He lives in Chile, like I do, and his native language is Spanish, yet he makes a great effort to post in impeccable English! OK, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that everyone here should only post in perfect Oxford English that would impress the Queen herself, but as studio builders we do need to be clear. Practically everyone here does take the time and make the effort to communicate as clearly as possible, and for a very good reason: Building a recording studio requires precision and accuracy. A simple misunderstanding of a slang term could mean the difference between success and failure. If I suggest that you should "stick a bord on the woden pole thingiess, and put a fluff bhind it", you most probably would do the wrong thing entirely. But if I say "Nail a sheet of 5/8" gypsum board to the 2x4 studs, and install 4 inches of pink fiberglass insulation behind it" then you pretty much cannot go wrong. So for "guidance in the right direction" I'd suggest that if you want to build a good studio, start by reviewing the many threads here written by people who have already done exactly that (or are in the process of doing it), and learn from them. then design your studio carefully, post questions that you might run into, refine the design, ask more questions, refine it and check it again, think it through carefully, spend some more time designing it, then when you have a totally fool-proof design, accurate down to the last nail, only then start building. - Stuart -or some guidance in the right direction.as for the spelling, please dont let it distract you.