Hello! Funny little room, temp solution - worth trying?

Hello everyone, Another long first post seeking advice I'm afraid. I've been lurking around here for some time so it is nice to post. I'm going to try to do everything right :D I was originally lurking here reading info regarding construction, however some things have changed a little. I am still intending to construct a space as soon as possible, but I am considering whether the room I have at the moment might serve as a useable stopgap solution. At present I work on headphones (I am extremely careful at all times, calibrated levels etc), but I am piecing together all the bits and bobs I need for my space once it is ready. Thing is, I am in line for a GREAT deal on some K+H O300s and I was content to leave them sitting in the box until the time came. It was, amazingly, my girlfriend who said 'can't you use them in this room before then?'. She even went so far as to say 'I don't care what you do in here so long as it doesn't look too rushed or cheap, I never come in here anyway'. Wooohooo! :D So main question is, 'should I bother?'. Having done some measurements, my jury is out and so I turn to you for a more informed opinion! :D I have attached three pictures made with my very first Sketchup attempt (no laughing! :D ). The window and door are not quite spot on but the rest is pretty accurate (at least within an inch). There is a large alcove in the wall that used to be the place for the water tank, this is now where my computer and everything sits. This extends the length of the room by a metre for 2/3rds of its height, at that end of the room. There are shelves shown there and in short, I can stuff pretty much as much trapping material in that end as I like [Note: the back end is not open as in the sketchup, but I left it open to show that area more clearly]. I can also 'decorate' the room with suitable material so long as it doesn't look shabby (my girlfriend thought the diffusor I showed her on the net looked 'cool'). I can probably also leave the door open when working, which might help... The room dimensions are: H = 232.5 cm = 7ft8 W = 193 cm = 6ft4, and W(doorway end across alcove) = 254cm = 8ft4 L(main) = 342 = 11ft3, L(including alcove) = 442cm = 14ft6.5 It's very small, I know... It's also on the first floor. The wall opposite the door is brick and adjoins my neighbours, though no-one lives there at the moment. The window wall is also brick, the rest are plaster board I believe. The floor is very solidly built and barely reverberates even if I jump on it. I will not be recording, I will be mixing a bit and mainly (low-end!) mastering using a combination of my beloved headphone setup and the K+H. Really I intend to try to learn the K+H a bit while still doing most of my work on the cans, until the time I have a purpose built space. A suggested position for the speakers is in the sketchup. I intend to monitor at a carefully calibrated ~78-80dB (depending), only during daytime. I intend to let my neighbours know that's how it will be, if anyone moves in there. So isolation is not a huge concern - I really am extremely careful with my levels and am considerate with regard to times. So, to summarise; I can pretty much go freely with the trapping/absorption. Budget isn't unlimited, but so long as the materials can later be removed and put to use in another space in some way, I am happy to spend up to £600 GBP or so, if that's what it takes. In your very-informed opinion/s, could I make a reasonably workable space in here? Or should I save myself a lot of bother, keep on as I have been and continue to be patient? Thanks ever so much! Cheers, Bob.

I get the feeling I may have done something wrong... I tried to follow the guidelines but let me know if there is something I should amend. An SKP is attached, for what it is worth. Just a 'worth a try' or 'forget it' woud be very helpful to me. Cheers all, Bob.

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Bob :D

An SKP is attached, for what it is worth. Just a 'worth a try' or 'forget it' woud be very helpful to me.

Difficult to say. :wink: We oftentimes have to play the cards we're dealt, even if it's not the ideal. For example, John has designed a studio that was built in a shipping container with good results here - http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Mark.htm Will the results be satisfactory? Under the best of circumstances, it's challenging. With a less than ideal starting point, even more so. But there are things that can be done that given the right attention to design, construction and effort, sometimes even the less than ideal can be made better, if not doable. Given the criteria, one has to work with, one has to decide oneself on whether or not it is worth pursuing. Also, considering that all of us contributing to the forum are on a volunteer basis - with jobs, families, work, studio builds of our own, sometimes responses to our questions take sometime. Perhaps even more so when dealing with challenging situations. Hang in there! Don't give up! :D Instead, use the time wisely by reading through the stickies, studio build threads and start making notes of the questions you may have and the answer that are to be found in within the forum. There is a virtual library of information to be had, it's just hard to find sometimes. Read, read, read. Be sure to take notes (and where you found them.) Pick up Rod's book on studio design & construction. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5670 In the meantime, I'll check out your skp file and see if anything ideas come to mind and share them with you. Aloha 8)

I'll wrote a proper reply in the morning, but;

kendale wrote:

Also, considering that all of us contributing to the forum are on a volunteer basis - with jobs, families, work, studio builds of our own, sometimes responses to our questions take sometime. Perhaps even more so when dealing with challenging situations.

I'm very much aware of that, very grateful, and so I apologise if I seemed impatient :oops:

Aloha Bob, No worries! :wink: Aloha 8)

Aloha Bob, Here are a few ideas for you to consider. There was a basic acoustic treatment diagram that John had on another site that consisted of front and rear corner bass traps, slot resonators on each side of the mix position, and front and rear absorbers. These were designed as separate components but were quite effective. Perhaps in light of your need for "the materials can later be removed and put to use in another space in some way," and the admittedly less than ideal ratios, this may provide some possibilities for you. (BTW, this also happens to be where I started in treating my studio, and these units really do work :wink: ) Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

That's magic and has got some things ticking over in my head :) If I might ask some further questions (I'm going to anyway it seems :mrgreen: ) The dimensions of the corner units - 22/24" along the back sides. Is that adjustable or is there very good reason for those dimensions? The insulation material in the diagrams - rockwool or something similar I assume? Skirting board (which isn't in my sketchup, sorry) - that will keep things slightly out from the corner, a cm or so. Big problem? I had been considering superchunks - would the slotted panels work on the front of something like that? The rear corners would be a bit different to that plan due to my big alcove. I was considering loading it with 703/equivalent, at least in the corners. Finally - probably the biggest one; the window. Having absorbers and so on around the room is fine, but blocking the window would have my missus reaching for the rolling pin :lol: No getting around that really, is there... :| I'll update my sketchup as I go, by the way :) Thanks ever so much for your time sir! Aloha :)

Aloha,

The dimensions of the corner units - 22/24" along the back sides. Is that adjustable or is there very good reason for those dimensions?

Yes, there is a good reason for it, but I don't recall the answer at the moment :mrgreen: Its been several years since I was at this junction.

The insulation material in the diagrams - rockwool or something similar I assume?

Yes, rockwool or something similar will work - try to get something rated about 2.5 pcf

Skirting board (which isn't in my sketchup, sorry) - that will keep things slightly out from the corner, a cm or so. Big problem?

I'll hazard a guess that would be something similar to what we call baseboards out here. Shouldn't be a problem. One thing I would point out is to be sure to attach these units to your walls with some sort of bracket to prevent them from tipping over on you, especially if your floors are not completely level.

I had been considering superchunks - would the slotted panels work on the front of something like that?

Yes, I believe that would work. The only point about superchunks is that they require more insulation material.

The rear corners would be a bit different to that plan due to my big alcove. I was considering loading it with 703/equivalent, at least in the corners.

This is one known area where bass frequencies are prone to build up. Perhaps as an alternative to the alcove area, you could mount a bass trap where the rear wall and ceiling come together, or perhaps place that alcove corner absorber on wheels to roll it into/out of position as needed. Again, be sure to secure it from toppling over.

Finally - probably the biggest one; the window. Having absorbers and so on around the room is fine, but blocking the window would have my missus reaching for the rolling pin No getting around that really, is there...

You could construct the front wall absorber with a cut out to fit your window dimensions. :wink: Aloha :mrgreen:

Aloha again :) Okay, so since last we spoke, I've been thinking a lot. Once it stopped hurting, I spoke to the lady about it all, showed her this thread, discussed the possibilities etc. She's fine with everything BUT asked two very important questions; 1) 'where's the futon going to go?' - DOH!! 2) 'who's going to build all these things - you?!? Hahaaahahaha :lol: ! etc etc' Now, she has a point. The only thing she asks is that people can still stay here when they come over. And she's also entirely correct that I am about as good at DIY as I am at telekinesis. So with that all in mind, I have updated my sketchup. Oooh, the excitement. I'm considering doing some superchunk action in the rear corners where it will largely be out of sight ;) , and then forking out (I know) for some properly designed and made acoustic gear. I am rubbish at DIY, it will look rubbish, and will not be as good as something professionally made anyway. I can afford it with a little saving, and I would most likely buy from GIK acoustics (they seem like nice people). I am considering setting up as shown in the attached pics/sketchup; DIY chunks in the alcove shelves and corner 2x GIK 244 behind monitors/in corners 1x 242 between those two (directly in front) 2x 242 at first reflection points 1x GIK monster bass trap at the back wall The missus will use the alcove for storing all sorts of rubbish which would help with diffusion. I could also stick a load of 703 on the underside/back of the futon (not modelled very well here sorry, it's a plank-built jobby) if you think that will help. Any feedback on this sort of setup would be appreciated. I'd build the desk - the rack picture is my actual Ikea rack, which I coulds mount to make a desk of some sort. I am thinking I don't have enough tri-corner coverage though... but space is running short :? Oh, by the way, I wanted to check where my head would be so I got a seated person model using Sketchup. The first person in a suitable position just-so-happened to be a CGI bikini girl. I don't usually do music work in my bikini, so please take that into consideration :lol: Cheers! Bob. EDIT: Sketchup is too big - probably the chair model I got. It can be found here . EDIT 2: One other thing I really meant to mention :oops: Two reasons I am going for the K+H O300 is a) they have a -3/-6/-9dB bass tilt eq, and b) the very narrow dispersion characteristics. Just wanted to mention that, given the circumstances.

Hello Macc & Welcome! Whoa...... I have to say that does look like a very tight space, though it is very doable, many people utilise such small spaces, I'd save your money on the GIK's and do a DIY. If you can get 703/Rockwool in the UK & I know you can then you'll get those sizes 2x4 ft x 2 inches exactly. Just warp them in Black Cotton or Wool w/a Simple frame backer & your done (You'll Save a fortune - Nothing against GIK and all,) you'll then have more money for equipment, as long as your not looking for a pure Mastering Sound (Which I Imagine your not) then go for it! In fact If you use Polyester, you can actually sleep on them as Beds/Bass traps. Cheers and Best of Luck ADDAhttp://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/p ... 1&t=11903# Edit: Sorry P.S Forgot to say, no need to cut the Skirting Board we call it that in Oz!

Hi Adda - thanks for the reply! :) I'm (obviously) looking for the best sound possible, but I don't expect world class results or anything. Mainly I'd like to get used to the monitors to some extent, while still working heavily on the cans (fine by me). I've been doing good work til now so an interim solution until the right space is ready would be nice. Really I was hoping to figure out if it was even worth the trouble. But it seems like it might be :) I had been looking at these, based on a few threads about the internet. They look just right. And I see what you mean about the cost... is it possible to stick 2 or 3 together to make a thicker trap? Any thoughts on the room plan would be appreciated too :) Many thanks for the advice so far, it's really appreciated. Bob.

Macc, hello again, I am indeed familiar with Wickes from SOS magazine, and yes you could use this product, I could only see that it was or looked like "Rockwool" and not FibreGlass. It really depends on what you are going to do. This is what I would suggest: You have quite a few areas in your small room that need plugging w/ broadband bass-trapping (Common Name) or absorbers (Generic name). Look under Acoustics on this site or go to the Acoustics forum and you'll find 5-10 great examples from the elaborate to the simple on how to make these Traps, I made 5 small and 5 Huge just this year, and it wasn't easy though retail would have cost over $3,800.00 $AUD & I was proud that I had built them and will use them for the next 5-10 years. What you need in terms of Insulation is Rigid /Semi Rigid 3 PCF (Pounds per Cubic Feet of Density) or 48/Kg Per Sq Meter. This has enough gas-flow resistance to stop most high to mid-low (Let's say as an SAC Graph between 200-khz and 4000-6000-khz, once again all this info is in the Acoustics section) then you should be able to wrap 2 or 3 50 Mill /2 inch pieces together for a mass back wall Bass Trap, then look at the other 12 corners of the room and see where you can make the most effective difference, believe me in a room that small you will have peaks and nulls you can't control, though you have to live with what you have, then when you move, take the traps with you. As I am very allergic to both Rockwool & FibreGlass I use Polyester 90% recycled, and for the large Traps I built which are 950-mm x 2300-mm they are actually usable as beds, as well as being anti-fungal & antibacterial, the Kids have slept on them and their 100% safe. I bought a Drill, some wood, and slowly progressed, now I've just finished my Studio Furniture saving AUD $2K on racks and benches, so learning and doing is your best bet, I will be happy to help you and guide as will others, though have a good look on the acoustics forum here and customise your own design, as I did, or use a simple design on the forum, this site is a very detailed & knowledgeable site, once you find what you need and want to build, leave a message and I will walk you through it, how does that sound! Best of Luck, PM me after you have spent serious time in the Acoustics room asking Q & A then we shall com back here. Cheers ADDA of Wimbledon Church St. Now in OZ!