New Studio in a new house

I have posted this on Gearslutz but I wanted to post this here as I lurk around these forums daily and wanted to get all your thoughts as well...Please let me know if you have any information. I have posted the basic design concept and my budget in a broken down fashion....again, please let me know if you have any questions. I am about to close on this house and am less than three weeks away from starting the build. I am a full time engineer/producer who is wanting a really solid space...the walls in the control room will be 2 ply 5/8" drywall with R13 between....the live room will be the same but with an extra 2 layers of 5/8" between the studs for extra isolation. o, I have been researching and decided not to rent a space and build...I just could not justify spending the the money to build in a place I don't own. Today my wife and I found out the bank accepted our offer on a house so I am going to build it in my garage...hooray! So, the dimensions are less than what I would want but I know I can make it work. It is sort of divided, as you can see by the picture, and I am wondering if I should use that framing and make it divided for a storage closet and the other a Vocal Booth...then the main floor for Mixing...I need some input. Am I better off going with a setup like Darkwater and using just a single room for everything or dividing it like it is now? I could go either way, but I would love to be able to do my own drums in there as well as guitars...I know the divided space is too small for drums, that would leave me having to do it in the may room anyways so that MAY answer my question for me. My main concern is making the space sound as good as possible and using every inch to its best possible. What are your thoughts? Can you suggest any layouts in this space? I record full time, this is how I make a living so I want clients to feel as comfortable as possible. Budget would hopefully be in the $3,000 range or less...I will be doing the project with friends so I won't need to hire anyone...electrical and framing is covered by them. Please let me know if you have any questions... Keith

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Keith How tall are your walls? Aloha 8)

That is sort of the catch....If I Closes up the ceiling I would have 8 foot walls...in this case I decided to to a cathedral type ceiling so I will have closer to 10ft. when all finished. Thanks for the reply!

Hi, How much sound isolation do you need? Are you going to build room within room construction? What type of work is your bread and butter? Regards, Steve

Hi Steve, I have VERY good neighbors but I don't want to burn that bridge...I am shooting for as much isolation as possible, due to the dimensions I am NOT going with a room within a room, but am going to spend time beefing up the outer leaf and using 2 5/8" layers of drywall on the inside. My concern is the ceiling. I have read quite a bit on these forums and I have become more confused. Do I need to leave the "attic" open for ventilation? Can I simply beef up the roof by putting 2 layers of drywall between the joists and then close that up with two more layers attached to the bottom of the joists? (Insulation between) Do I need to consider ventilation? Here is a VERY similar size studio and I am planning on doing just the same with the ceiling... http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo-diaries-recording-studio-construction-projects/368434-home-studio-self-build-suffolk-uk.html

Aloha, In Rod Gervais’ book “Build it Like the Pros,” viewtopic.php?t=5670 he points out both L.W.Sepmeyer’s & M.M. Louden’s formulas most widely used in professional studios worldwide. He also notes that the orders listed are (top to bottom) the first to third best ratios in both cases. L.W. Sepmeyer Height Width Length 1.00 1.14 1.39 8’ x 9’1” x 11’1” M.M. Louden Height Width Length 1.00 1.40 1.90 8’ x 11’2” x 15’2” Eric Desart on Louden’s Ratios viewtopic.php?p=64490&highlight=#64490 Height Width Length 1.00, 1.35, 1.85 8’ x 10’8” x 14’8” So, based on Eric Desart’s study of Louden’s ratios, you could start with something like this: 8’ x 10’8” x 14’8” for your control room. Skp file to follow... Aloha 8)

Ummmmm....You are the man!

Aloha, Control room Skp drawing for your perusal Eric Desart on Louden’s Ratios viewtopic.php?p=64490&highlight=#64490 Height Width Length 1.00, 1.35, 1.85 8’ x 10’8” x 14’8” Aloha 8)

Kendale, Wow, thank you so much for taking the time! The problem is I am on an EXTEMELY tight budget and don't have the funds to build a room within a room. My plan is to beef up the existing walls with 2 layers inside the wall studs, insulation and two more layers of drywall. Based on my calculations, and isolation needs, I will be able to make this work monetarily and logistically. I know I am not going to get nearly the isolation as I would with a Room Within A Room, but I have to go this way. My main concerns, have to do with ventilation and HVAC. Because I am doing this on the cheap I am going with a Portable AC to feed the main room and possibly one for the iso room....unless I can use the single unit to feed both rooms. Thoughts on that? I spent pretty much ALL of last night looking at Dan's build and another as well...lots of posts. Right now I am feeling a bit confused on a few things. I only have two trusses in my garage. The 2/4s up top, under the sheathing and shingles, are all in good shape and I am planning on putting up two layers of drywall directly to those to act as my ceiling. (I will be putting insulation before the drywall) I am assuming this is going to completely cut off ALL ventilation in the room...am I making a gross mistake here? Am I right in assuming that this will be ok to do because of my Portable AC units bringing in fresh air? I read online that completely cutting off ventilation will cause issues with premature aging of the shingles and other misc. issues. No? If I DO need to let the roof sit at the 8 foot level, attached to the two trusses, I am also assuming I will need to build up further beams for support the ceiling? I really DON'T want to go this route but I want to do this right the first time as I don't have excess funds to go back and do it again. I DO own Rod's book, I have read it and I still feel a bit lost on these situations. I am going to be the one building this, with the help of some skilled friends who don't mind working for beer and pizza, so I won't have extreme labor charges. I am lucky enough to have a very experienced carpenter as my new next door neighbor so I will also be asking his advise to see if my ideas will hold up structurally. Let me know if you have any further questions. Best, Keith

One other question....ok, probably more on the way but oh well! I am planning on beefing up on the walls by the 2 layers inside the studs, insulation and then 2 more layers of sheet rock. Is using RC-1 before the next two layers going to offer a significant amount of extra isolation? Based on what I read in "the book", and what I have seen here, it is a good idea but I want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. I did find a local guy who bought too much sheet rock and is selling 4X12 5/8 sheets for $6.00 a pop! Based on what I have seen this is great, hoping to score all I need from him.

Is using RC-1 before the next two layers going to offer a significant amount of extra isolation?

Absolutely! It will decouple your inner leaf from the studs, which is about as close as you can get to building a "room-within-a-room" without actually doing it. Of course, you need to attach the RC directly to the studs, NOT to any layers of drywall that might already be on them. The drywall has to come off. Then put your RC across the studs, fill the gap inside the wall (behind the RC) completely with fiberglass or mineral wool, then attach your two layers of drywall to the RC, taking EXTREME CARE to ensure that no screws go into the studs!!! Screws can ONLY go into the RC. If even one single drywall screw touches a stud, then you have short-circuited the RC, and it will not decouple any more.

Thank you Soundman! One other question, should I be trying to beef up the inner wall with two layers of drywall too? With this make that big of a difference? Based on what I read it will, just making sure. Thanks!

Wanted to bump this, respectfully, and add a new question... "One other question, should I be trying to beef up the inner wall with two layers of drywall too? With this make that big of a difference? Based on what I read it will, just making sure." I have come to notice that the wall framing, and possibly the ceiling, are done with 2X2. This, coupled with the fact that this structure was built in 1926, is scaring me a bit and I want to know if it is advisable to build a beefed up wall on a smaller frame like this...anyone? I am about a week away from starting and am trying to button up any loose ends. Best, Keith

I have come to notice that the wall framing, and possibly the ceiling, are done with 2X2.

Wow! Only 2x2? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no way that 2x2 studs and joists are going to support the amount of mass you need. 2x4 is already borderline in some cases for studio construction, especially if you need to span long distances. 2x6 or more is recommended. It looks like you will have to demolish what is there already, and re-build tough enough to support the weight that you need. But I'm looking at the photo you show of the roof, and I don't see any 2x2's there. Are they not visible in that photo? Perhaps you could post photos that show the actual structure of the walls and ceiling, for comment by the experts. But if it is 2x2, then you really cannot use that. I'm not a structural engineer or anything, but I do know that a 2x2 just cannot take anywhere near the amount of weight you need to put on it. It will collapse. - Stuart -

After further review, it is the Walls only...the ceiling joists are 2x4....I will try to get some pictures up ASAP.

After further review, it is the Walls only...the ceiling joists are 2x4..

Unfortunately, the walls have to support he ceiling! 2x2 studs won't be able to support that kind of weight safely, even if the joists are 2x4. In fact, I'm wondering what kind of wood those joists are made from, since they seem to be spanning at least 11'6" according to your diagram. That's very marginal for 2x4's. I still think you need to take it all out and rebuild it. You can probably salvage a lot of it if you work carefully, and some of that wood will probably still be useful for framing acoustic panels, maybe bracing stuff, and that kind of thing. You don't have to throw it away, but it just won't be safe leaving it like it is, IMHO. Something else I thought of: Your floor is concrete, right? Sitting directly on the ground? - Stuart -

Yes, I believe it is a concrete slab over dirt.

Ok, now I am very nervous and wondering what to do now. I really don't have the ability to knock this down and rebuild it...I really need to make this structure work. Would it simply be possible to do a room within a room and make sure none of the walls are touching? If I am assuming correctly this will not put ANY added weight onto the existing walls...right? I really don't want to give up any extra room but I don't want the thing coming down, should I just plan on building a room within a room on this one? If so, how can I estimate how much wood I will need? This is obviously going to make my budget go up, I really need to find out by how much. Best, Keith

Would it simply be possible to do a room within a room and make sure none of the walls are touching? If I am assuming correctly this will not put ANY added weight onto the existing walls...right?

Well, as far as I can see, that probably would be your best bet! Build new 2x4 (or 2x6) stud frames a couple of inches inside the existing frame. Put new joists across those new walls. Put drywall (at least two layers) on only ONE side of all those studs and joists (either the inside or the outside: it doesn't matter. But not both sides). Carefully seal it all air-tight, make sure that nothing from the new inner leaf touches the old outer leaf, and you should have a decent, and safe, room. You have a concrete slab on grade for your floor. That part, at least, is good news! You should check how thick that slab is, and find out if it is reinforced, to make sure that you can put all the extra weight of the new construction on it, but chances are you should be OK for that. However, I would still suggest that you get a structural engineer to take a look at what you have, and what you plan to do, and get his professional opinion. He is the only guy qualified to tell you if you are OK. Explain to him the above (2x4 or 2x6 walls and ceiling framing, with two layers of 5/8 drywall on only one side, plus glass, doors, equipment and people), and he'll be able to tell you if the concrete slab is OK for doing that. Like I said, it probably is OK, but DON'T take my word for it! I can't see what you have from here, I'm not a structural engineer anyway, and you DO need one to inspect what you have, and tell you for certain if you can do what you propose. The only issue I see is the possibility of your existing wall become a third leaf, but I think that is hte least of your worries, and you don't seem to be concerned about isolation too much anyway. I looked but couldn't see any place where you described exactly how that existing wall is built. Is it just something like MDF or OSB plus siding on the outside of those 2x2 studs, then drywall on the inside? Or is it something else? I'm still curious as to how a building like that can pass inspection if it only has 2x2 studs for the wall framing, and 2x4 joists for the roof. Are you CERTAIN that is what it is? That there is nothing else in there providing support? Maybe those 2x2's are just furring or something? Can you get some of the drywall off those walls, and take a good look at what you actually have? I'm getting more confused, because I just checked an on-line span calculator, and I cannot find ANY 2x4 wood that can safely span 11'6", even at the lightest loads, unless you relaly relax the deflection limits greatly. The only thing that fits the bill seems to be Douglas fir, but like I said, even then you have to assume very low loading and poor deflection limits. Most 2x4 woods will only span 7 to 9 feet using the default parameters on the span calculator. I don't really know what I'm doing with that thing, but I do see that the numbers just don't look good unless you relax the deflection limit to what seems (to me) rather flimsy! Are you sure there is nothing else holding up the ceiling? Do the joists really span all the way across 11'6", with no additional support? Are the really resting on 2x2 stud walls? I think you need to double and triple check how that place is built, because from what little I know of construction, it just isn't making much sense. Brien would be the guy to tell you for sure (xSpace). He's the expert on that kind of thing. But it doesn't look good to me. However, the place is there, and it is standing, and has been for some time, so SOMETHING is keeping it up! Anyway, your absolute best bet right now would be to get a structural engineer to come and take a close look at things. - Stuart -

Hey Stuart! Wow, you kick a$$ my friend! I just got back from the house, we should be getting keys tomorrow. I took some new pics that will hopefully shed some light on the situation. There is nothing on one of the walls, no insulation or anything. From the pics you can see the paneling from the outside, which is the only thing on the wall at all. I think the studs are a little larger than 2X2, but I am not sure...I will need to measure them. Let me know if you have any questions. Best, Keith

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