Rebuilding My Studio. New Design Ideas.

Hey guys! I'm going to be tearing down my current room and rebuilding it with a new design since, I guess, it cannot be salvaged. Here is my Original Design thread. The studio I built and have been working with for over a year now. I've been trying and will keep trying to tame it but every sign points towards tearing it down and rebuilding it! Here is the thread I posted on Gearslutz where I was advised to do it that way, so I went ahead and did it since I also got good feedback here from Gulfo as well. I guess it must have been built wrong or something because it didn't result as advised. I don't know what I or the workers did wrong but it must've been pretty bad! http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end- ... tions.html And finally in THIS thread I am being advised from every direction to tear down and redo, which is why I have done the following designs so please feel free to comment and lend me a hand with it :) I'm not a whiz with sketchup but you'll get the rough idea. Could I be doing something a whole lot better with the space I have? (Parallel Concrete walls 13 x 19 x 8.5 Flat Drywall ceiling stuffed with R-19 Fiberglass between Concrete ceiling) Thanx a lot for chiming in!

The only thing that I know for sure is that with a W 12'11" x L 19'4" x H 8'5" area, the first time you make it smaller is the start of your sound having less room to breath. I don't know what your actual problems in this project room have become but me personally, I would have a hard time cutting the size up into anything smaller.

That was my first impression as well. Did you have a chance to review my previous threads? My actual Control room is one large room with a vocal booth in the back right corner. I'm being told this booth is messing up my acoustics and my symmetry. I was proposed to split it by Gulfo, who is a great acoustician, but I was hesitant to follow his design since at the time I didn't have enough resources to built it like that and I assumed it would be uncomfortable for guests because of its tight space. What would you do in my case? Thanx for your reply!

I agree with Brien. Perhaps if you could explain what the current problems are in detail, it would give everyone a better idea. And making a small space even smaller wont help to improve the acoustics. I do recall your graphs that show large bass node issues, and your non-symmetrical back end with that booth in it, but maybe if you could give your subjective analysis of how the room sounds, what seems to be wrong with it, how it "feels", etc. My big question about dividing your room would be: Do you really need two rooms, or could you make do with one multi-purpose room? I know that's a real tough question, and I wrestled with it myself for months before deciding that I will need to sacrifice acoustic quality a bit in order to get a live room. But maybe in your case it isn't 100% necessary? - Stuart -

OK, I agree. I'll try to illustrate my situation. My image is OK, but a little blurry, it's not crystal clear or even GREAT. The room tends to sound a bit muddy and unclear and sort of as if I have some kind of phasing problems. I get my stuff to sound great in here, but doesn't translate well at all. For some reason everything I play here (commercial stuff) the vocals are kinda buried in the mix and the guitars are super loud. I get a liiiittle bit of a boxy sound. I CAN operate in a shared live/control room. In fact this is the current design I have and that's what I've been doing for over a year now, so it is not a problem at all, it was my first choice. I only considered dividing the room to get wider splays on the side walls. and isolation for recording drums and guitars which get real loud and I record a lot of. It would have its advantages also having a live AND a mix room because I could treat each individually. Also I think dividing the rooms would work because if I only have one big room I can't treat my back left corner because the bathroom door is in that corner. This is a picture of the test result I got when I measured my room after some treatment installation. And also the design that Gulfo recommended when I first posted my first design which was just a control room where I could track vocals. Maybe so you can get an idea of what my mixes ultimately sound like, you can listen to this band I did http://www.myspace.com/somosetereo ... I knoe you can't really compare with anything... but just MAYBE you can get an idea... just imagine this sounding REALLY good inside my room :-D (punchier, fuller, clearer, etc.)

Yeah, you do seem to have quite a bass issue there, according to that response graph! I'm also curious about that sudden drop at 10kHz. That one doesn't make much sense. Are you sure this is not a speaker problem, or EQ problem, or amp problem? Is there any chance you could get your speakers, amp, etc. out in the middle of nowhere, such as a large empty field with nothing at all around, far away from all buildings trees, etc, and test them the same way you did for the above graph, using the exact same measurement mic and software? They are probably behaving perfectly, but I reckon it would be good for your own peace of mind to start out by confirming that, You need to have a known-good starting point against which to compare, and checking your final output chain (EQ (if any) amps, speakers) is the logical place to start. It is also a lot less drastic to take all those out to a large field and test them, than it is to rip out your entire studio! It might still be necessary to do that (rip out your studio and rebuild it), but at least if you test your speakers carefully first, you'll know WHY you are ripping out your studio, and what to do to fix the problem in the new studio. I'm listening to your sample album, and I see what you mean: The drums are muddy (especially the kick and snare), the bass is overpowering in places, and those guitars! wow. The guitars don't sound too bad by themselves, but they just don't sit well in the mix. (The vocals don't sound too bad though, if that is any consolation! A bit dull, but reasonable.) If that really does sound good in the room, then clearly there is something badly wrong with the acoustics. I'd honestly suggest that you first test your speakers as well as possible, to get a really good idea of their response, then go from there. What speakers are they, by the way? I think you said they were Adam A7's? I have a pair of those, and I can assure you that the response is nothing at all like they curve you are getting! Mine are pretty flat across the entire spectrum, with a slight dip at the cross-over point to the Sub-point. And they most certainly do not have that curious drop at 10 kHz. That would be my suggestion to start with, before you pick up a hammer and attack the walls: confirm that your speakers are working fine. They probably are, but it would be nice to confirm for sure. - Stuart -

Hey Stuart, Sorry I took so long to answer. I went on a trip with my family for Easter Break to Costa Rica to visit my sister! Good times! Anyway, yes I see what you mean. I do have A7s. They are soffit mounted though, I'll take them out and do what you're suggesting. I'm thinking the 10k drop might be the mic I used (Behringer ECM8000) and the software was Fuzz Measure. When I soffit mounted them I rolled off 150Hz on the Room EQ in the back, remember you suggested I do that? Well it did improve the acoustics a lot! But my room still sounds like this, so I guess I'll start off by taking them out of the soffits and try around different placements. I don't have anything else in my monitor chain. They are hooked up straight from my interface and I also tested the cables and they are in phase with each other. I'm curious about something, though... I keep seeing a lot of designs in smaller rooms than mine, including designs with both a control room and a live room, also smaller or the same size as mine. The "Small Studio in 3D" Thread also features a studio with very simillar dimmensions as mine and that one is designed by John himself, if I'm not mistaken, and the quote by the owner seems to be positive and satisfied. Is there something I'm missing here? As in, what makes it a good choice for them, but not for me in this case? (I'm also thinking maybe if I can just get rid of the booth in the back right corner I can get closer and try to treat it instead of tearing the whole thing down)

Aloha, Just curious, what type of acoustic treatment (if any) do you have on your walls? Aloha 8)

Hey Kendale, My side walls have some Helmholtz slots that go from almost 8 feet long, and about 5 feet high, starting off at about 3 feet from the ground up. I have 3 GIK Acoustics 242 acoustic panels. 2 placed at my sides (one on each side) and one on the ceiling above my listening position. My walls are constructed with 2x2 wood studs, sheetrock, and R-19 fiberglass insulation inside. The outer walls are concrete bricks 8'' thick. That's about it for now but I'm working on DIYing some more panels for my ceiling (which is flat and no treatment aside from the GIK panel and another cloud I built which is right above me)

Aloha, Could you post your skp file of your actual build? Thanks! :wink: Aloha 8)

Aloha, Kendale! The third link on my first post of this thread takes you to the thread where I posted pictures, specifications and a jpg of the skp file of my actual build :) It's the word "THIS" highlighted in blue

I'm thinking I should just tear down the booth in the back and leave everything as is right now. Doing this and placing more treatment should get me closer to a flatter response room. If even that doesn't work then I guess I will have no choice but to tear down the whole thing and do it over. Maybe taking the monitors out of the soffits too. You think this is a good idea?

I'm thinking I should just tear down the booth in the back and leave everything as is right now.

sounds like a good plan to start with.

Maybe taking the monitors out of the soffits too.

The only reason I'd take them out is to TEST THEM in a wide open space, to make sure you don't have a speaker problem! Like I said above, that would be my very first move, BEFORE doing anything else. But I would NOT leave the speakers out of the soffits. I would put them back in after confirming that they are OK. But that's just me. - Stuart -

This is true, soundman!! I will test these speakers first, one at a time. I have already tested both XLR cables and they are in phase, so I've ruled that out. I'll try doing it over the weekend since I have clients coming in tomorrow and friday. It's a little hard to take the speakers out since I shaped the front wall of the soffit to fit snug with the Adam 7s grooves so they're flush to the wall. I am just noticing something else too, which I hope you, or anybody else who wants to chime in, can clarify for me and hopefully other readers who have the same question: My speakers are soffit mounted in such a way that they aim to form an equilateral triangle with the third point of the triangle dead on 38% of the length of my room. Here is where I get confused, should I place my head on the very point of the triangle? Or rather a few inches in front of it so that the signal from the speakers hits my hears and the third point meets behind my head, but then my head wouldn't be at 38%? Is the 38% my head, or the third point of the triangle?? I really hope I'm being clear because I'm having a real hard time wording this haha! So I am confused WHERE exactly the 38% is. A) Right where the third point of the triangle is >o B) A few inches in front of the triangle like so: o> If it is B then I would have to redo my soffits and spread the speakers more apart from each other so that the triangle is bigger and my head is placed right at the 38%. Man, I really hope I'm making my point because I'm having a hard time understanding myself trying to explain it! I apologize since english is my second language :) Thank you all in advance, I truly appreciate this forum and the input of everyone in it!

Here is where I get confused, should I place my head on the very point of the triangle? Or rather a few inches in front of it so that the signal from the speakers hits my hears and the third point meets behind my head, but then my head wouldn't be at 38%? Is the 38% my head, or the third point of the triangle??

The point of the triangle is behind your head, about 20 cm back from your ears (unless you have a strange shape head!). So the your speaker axes just touch your ears, and meet behind your head. But your ears are at the 38% mark, not the point of the triangle. HOWEVER! Don't get too hooked up on that 38% point. It's not a universal law that is carved in stone! It's just a stating point, a general rule of thumb to get you in the ball park. You might find that you need to be further forward or further back for the best position. Trial and error. I read somewhere that many engineers ending up sitting a little closer forward than that. You need to experiment a bit.

If it is B then I would have to redo my soffits and spread the speakers more apart from each other so that the triangle is bigger and my head is placed right at the 38%.

Or just move your seat a couple of inches forward!!! :)

Man, I really hope I'm making my point because I'm having a hard time understanding myself trying to explain it!

I understand you perfectly! I went through the exact same dilemmas a few months back, when I was designing by room geometry and my soffits, and it took me ages to find the answers and think it through logically! But just to be sure, let me re-cap: Your EARS are at the 38% mark, which is where the room modes are supposed to be most favorable. The speaker AXES intersect behind your head, such that they also just touch your ears, and that normally means that the point of the triangle will be about 20 cm or so (roughly!) behind the 30% point. And once again, 38% isn't an absolute rule: just a guideline. You might end up in a slightly different location, such as 35% or 40% or something. (However, if you end up at 50%, then I'd be rather surprised and concerned!!!!) - Stuart -

Wow, thanx Soundman, that's perfectly clear now!! Makes sense because I found that actually moving my head forward seemed to work better than being at 38%. Now, how do I move around my positioning when my speakers are fixed and I can't move them? I can only move myself really. When I tested my room I got the best result at where I am seated right now, which is probably round 30% and the point of the triangle is right behind me at 38%. I guess this is good then and I can go ahead and run my tests on my speakers this weekend and let you knoe how that works out. I might even be tearing down the booth. I rarely use it anyway. I can just use gobo traps or whatever. Hey thanx for being so cool with your answers! I'll keep you updated!

What's up? Well I just tested my monitors, but inside the soffits. I will go check them outdoors tomorrow, and Saturday I might be tearing down the booth. Anyway I wanted to post a picture of my test result. I tested each speaker separately without moving the microphone. I used a Behringer ECM8000 through my API 3124+ pre with the gain on the minimum. Placed the mic various places until I came up with the flattest one. I used a demo version of Fuzz Measure for Mac. The software plays a sine sweep from 20 HZ to 20 kHz that lasts about 10 seconds. I got a different response every time so I just kept on doing it without moving anything until I came up with very similar results. One conclusion I CAN draw from this is: Either (A) My speakers are fine! or (B) Both my speakers are EQUALY messed up! which would be extremely weird but possible nonetheless! My guess is my speakers are fine, but they do display that huge slope down from like 3k to 10k and then a huge dip. I'm thinking I can use the Room EQ Feature on the back of my monitor to boost 11 or 13k (I forget which it is) by 6dB in order to get a flatter response, but I'm a little hesitant of doing that since nobody recommends using EQ to tune a room. My room shouldn't be that dead on the high freq's either. I don't have many HF absorbers but the 3 GIK broadband bass traps. My floor is laminate (cheap hardwood lookalike hehe) and my ceiling is drywall, parallel to the wall. This room should be off the chain bright, am I wrong? (not that I WANT a bright room, just a live one) Here is the pic Orange is Left and Green is Right. I set the smoothing option to 12 Octaves (Medium)

Yeah, that curve doesn't make much sense for A7's. They are supposed to be pretty flat all the way out to about 30 kHz! Mine certainly don't give curves that look anything like that. I haven't tested them with a full spectrum swept sine wave, but when I test them with pink noise I get nice flat response from about 40 Hz all the way up to the end of the scale on my PAA3, with variation of no more than 3 dB across the entire spectrum. If I hook up the Sub-8 too, then I get flat down to about 25 Hz., and a slight dip at the crossover frequency. With a curve like yours, no wonder the room sounds muddy, and you can't get a decent mix that translates well. So like you say, either yours are both shot to pieces, or you have some other problem. Have you checked the response of the sound interface on your computer? What are you using for that? I guess another possibility is that your soffits might be doing something strange to the sound. Are you sure that the speakers are totally isolated from the soffit panels, stands and frame? Something strange is going on! - Stuart -

Wow I really wish my response was like that! What kind of treatment do you have in your room? What's your design like? Are your A7s also soffit mounted? I bought the pair new and they've behaved like that since I got them, but on the other hand this room is the only place where I've used them already soffit mounted. I think it's very unlikely that they are both defective in an identical way, but I can't rule out the possibility. I'm using an M-Audio 1814 FireWire Interface which was modded by Black Lion Audio (Tweakhead Mod). They modded all analog stages, digital converters, power supply, word clock. How do you suggest I test the interface? Yeah my soffits are next in line as culprits! They are built with John's SAE design. Let me try to post the pictures again since I only posted them on another thread. The only thing I didn't do just like the design is make it an airtight space. All the inner walls in my entire studio are connected, there are no separations in the soffits isolating them from the insides of the inner wall and the outer wall. The rest is just like the design. Solid wood frame with 2x2 studs, plywood front walls, bass trap in the bottom, vents on the very top close to the ceiling. As far as the speakers being totally isolated from the soffit panels, no. They are confined tightly in a plywood box within the panel just like in the design. No stand, just a wooden platform that forms part of the wooden frame that holds the walls. Thanx again for helping me through this.

Here are the pictures. I hope including the description I posted earlier you can get an idea of what is going on here with my soffits. To clarify what I said about it not being air tight, the inside of the soffits have no side walls, meaning they are connected through the middle wall and the room's side walls. that applies on the bottom where the bass traps are as well. I hope this can get us closer to a flatter room!

As far as the speakers being totally isolated from the soffit panels, no. They are confined tightly in a plywood box within the panel just like in the design. No stand, just a wooden platform that forms part of the wooden frame that holds the walls.

Ahhhhh! Now THAT sounds like we might be getting somewhere! Your speakers absolutely DO need to be isolated from the soffit panels, and also from the structure. They way you have them mounted now, I strongly suspect that the speakers are directly causing the panel / structure to vibrate and resonate! When you are playing music loudly through your speakers, if you touch the soffit with your fingers can you feel it vibrating? If so, that is probably the issue. The way I understand it, the speaker must NOT be coupled to the soffit panel, nor to the structure: It must be decoupled as much as possible, which is why the normal method that I've seen is to have a thick layer of something like neoprene, rubber or something like that between the speaker and the massive box that contains it, so that the speaker can vibrate all it wants without transmitting that directly to the soffit panel (which is only there to stop sound from "wrapping around" behind the speaker) or to the structure (which is only there to hold things up). In other words, the soffit panel is supposed to acts as an infinite baffle, but in your case it is acting more like the speaker cone! If it is vibrating, then it is creating it's own sound, which is interfering with the sound radiated by the speaker. That's why the soffit panel needs to be so extremely massive: it has to resist vibrating and resonating in sympathy with the the speaker, at all costs. Something light weight won't work for that. The more massive it is, the harder it is to make it move, and the lower the resonance (and resonant frequency) should be. That's why my soffit panels will be concrete. I just haven't figured out how thick I need to make the concrete yet, but those panels will be massive! I also haven't fully figure out the details of mounting the speakers inside the soffits, but the idea I'm leaning towards at present is to build a concrete box whose inside dimensions are a little bit bigger than my speakers, with that difference being the exact thickness of whatever material I end up selecting for the isolation. So if I eventually figure out that I'm going to need an 8mm thickness of neoprene (or whatever) to get reasonable isolation, then the inside dimensions of the concrete box will be 8mm bigger than the outside dimensions of my speakers, all around. I strongly suspect that your speakers are causing your soffits to vibrate and resonate, since the whole thing is directly coupled to the speaker. Probably if you decouple your speakers form the soffit, then things will improve a lot. Do the "fingertip test" on your soffit panels: while playing loud music on the A7s, gently touch the soffit panels with your fingertips. If you can feel the, vibrating, then my guess is that you have found your problem (or one of your problems). - Stuart -

Here we go! We are definitely getting somewhere with this. What you are saying makes perfect sense. I've just read other threads on the matter of soffit mounting and it got quite confusing as some people said it needed to be decoupled, others suggested it needed to be as tight as possible inside the box. Anyway I did the "Fingertip Test" and this is what I got: EVERYTHING IS VIBRATING!!! At regular volume levels nothing vibrates, at the level I mix at, but then when I set it at the level i turn it up because the clients want to hear it louder that's where the trouble starts. The front soffit walls vibrate slightly, and seem to vibrate more in one area, towards the center wall right besides the A7. Then I noticed my DESK was also vibrating!! (I have my desk on neoprene pads. It has 12 small legs and neoprene pads on all of them). As I suspected, every single wall in my studio is vibrating!! Everything vibrates slightly, but is vibrating nonetheless. Also the fact that the soffits are not air tight in the back, so the sound that comes out of the speaker from the back of the speaker is, not only vibrating through the entire studio all structure and floor, and ceiling most likely, but it's traveling through the insides of the walls (the concrete and drywalls) although there is a lot of fiberglass absorbent material inside those walls, sound is still getting through. Oh, man what a mess I'm in!! I will be addressing this matter ASAP. On another note, I ran some more tests yesterday and figured out the weird drop in 10k in my graphs! I did tests in Pro-Tools instead of Fuzz Measure, things I could control. I used a spectrum analyzer so I could see real time how my room was responding and I found out that it received everything above 10k just fine! With a few dips and peaks here and there, but nothing too bad. I found out that the sine sweep settings on the Fuzz Measure where set to play at a setting called "Full Range". Anyone can assume that's the full range of the spectrum that the human ear can listen, or a little above that. But it turns out it only goes up to 10k! So I set it on "Custom" and set the frequencies from 1Hz to 20,000Hz. and got the following picture. Oh, because of these results I also suspect that the left speaker doesn't have the 150Hz bass roll-off all the way down by -6dB. The left (red) one shows those peaks at around 90Hz and 150-190ish Hz. The other picture shows an average between the Left speaker response and the Right speaker response. I'll find out anyway as soon as I open up these babies and address this problem. Check it out: Picture A is both speakers individually represented on the same graph. RED is LEFT and PURPLE is RIGHt Picture B is single representation of an average of both responses.

it got quite confusing as some people said it needed to be decoupled, others suggested it needed to be as tight as possible inside the box.

Actually, it needs to be BOTH! :) The speaker needs to fit tightly inside the decoupling lining (let's just call it "rubber", for simplicity). So as you push the speaker into the rubber-lined box, it will be really hard to do that for two reasons: 1) it's a tight fit anyway, since the dimensions of the "hole" inside the rubber lining are exactly the same as the dimensions of the speaker, and 2) you will be pushing against the air pressure building up behind the speaker. Basically. it's like pushing a piston into a sealed cylinder: the air has no place to go. Fortunately for folks like you and me with active speakers, we have vents at the back of our boxes, so that helps, but you are still trying to force an object into a hole that is exactly the same size. But the point is, it needs to be a tight fit so that no air can leak around the edge of the speaker box. The front of the speaker cabinet needs to be sealed tightly to the soffit panel.

EVERYTHING IS VIBRATING!!!

Ooops! That is not good news. It sounds like things are not massive enough, and not decoupled enough. And even your DESK is vibrating? That's strange! Your floor is concrete, right? So it can't be from flanking through the soffit / floor. It must be airborne, which makes me think that your desk is made of light weight materials, that don't have much mass.

I did tests in Pro-Tools instead of Fuzz Measure, ... Anyone can assume that's the full range of the spectrum that the human ear can listen, or a little above that. But it turns out it only goes up to 10k! So I set it on "Custom" and set the frequencies from 1Hz to 20,000Hz.

Well, that sure would explain the 10k problem!!! :) So everything you see on the old graphs above 10k is simply due to harmonics. That makes sense, but it makes me wonder why you have such large harmonic response in your room, as the curve is only 10 to 20 dB down from the fundamentals, mostly, until about 12k, where it rolls off. I'm not sure what that means. I don't understand acoustics well enough to even hazard a guess. I'm surprised that you'd have such high level harmonics in a treated room.

...and got the following picture.

Ahh!: Now THAT looks a bit more like it! That's more like what I'd expect from an A7. But is that curve smoothed? Perhaps to 1/3 octave, or 1/12 octave, or something? Because I would have expected to see a few bigger peaks and dips in there, very sharp ones, especially in the region below about 200 Hz, from various modes and resonances in the room. and I'd certainly expect to see peaks and dips form the resonance that you can feel in your soffit panels / desks / walls. So I'm guessing that you had a smoothing filter applied to that curve? Or maybe you had the mic very close to the speaker, and that's mostly speaker response you are seeing there, without much room effect? Where did you have the mic for that most recent test? And how loud did you have the speakers for the tests? You should have them at the same level you were using when you could feel everything vibrating, I think. Now, if that really is your room response, then it isn't bad at all! Everything is within a range of about 10 dB (+4, -6), from 80 Hz. on up. That is quite reasonable for a small control room, from what I understand. But I'm not convinced that it really is a good indicator of your room response. But it sure does seem that you are on the right track now! And that is good news! - Stuart -

Ok, so this is definitely a good starting approach. What thickness neoprene should I use? Wetsuit fabric thick, or mousepad thick? Yeah, you got it right. The desk is made with light materials, not heavy or dense in any way. It's a metal 1" frame that holds a 1/2" board (kinda looks like plywood with a really nice cherry finish). The desk is 6'6'' long and 3' wide. Yeah I guess it must be airborne since my floor is just a concrete slab, foam padding and laminate flooring on top. The 2x2 wooden frames of the entire walls are nailed straight to the concrete, though. The ceiling is also drywall, then a wooden frame, insulation and a concrete slab on top too with metal support beams. Yes, the curve on the graph is smoothed! If you look closely at the picture you will notice the label on the top that says (1/3 Octave Smoothing). I can post another one with 12 octave smoothing as my first pictures were. The mic was at my listening position which is about 6'6" from the front wall which is around 30% of the room. That's where I got my flattest response. I will try testing with the level at the loudest I play it to (which is the -18dB mark on the A7's) Yeah, I mean theoretically, the room's response isn't bad at all, but something definitely feels sketchy when you listen to stuff you knoe sounds differently. It's also curious to me how it's considered to be an OK response to have dips and peaks of +4 or +6dB when that's what makes a huge difference when you apply an EQ to a track don't you think? Yeah it does feel like we're getting somewhere for sure! I really appreciate your time and input, I don't know how things are in Chile but here in Honduras there aren't many of our breed haha! Recording engineers and producers here are mostly self taught and don't really bother to do much research. So I am really thankful you are helping me through this ordeal. I'll try the neoprene and testing the speakers out in the open through out the week since I have clients most days.