Mitch Lee - Composer Studio Build

Hello everyone. I have been reading this forum non stop for a long time now and now its time to reveal myself (big evil laugh!!!). But realy to seek counsel from the wise. I have Rod's book and in fact had a studio designed by John about 2 years ago. However I was never able to build it (John scared everyone away with his amazing design and plan). I do not have the budget to have him design this one so I am gonna DIMWLOH (do it myself with lots of help). I am a composer and sound designer and bla bla bla....audio guy. I mainly write music for TV, Video Games, Corporate, Interactive and Mobile stuff. I do also track voice overs, record acoustic instruments (guitar mainly) and do a bit of foley. that's it (for tracking). In my control room I mainly work to picture, create sound design and mix in my room. Any heavy mixes I send to someone else. My needs are simple yet this place needs to kick ass as I have clients come by who I need to impress. My real concern is getting my vocal/tracking room the best I can for......well.....recording. (see next paragraph) (let me know if you need more info here) Find attatched some pics of the new space I am leasing with 2 other visual fx companies. Its just in final stages of landlord improvements. (ie: new paint and a new laminate floor). It is on the 3rd floor of an old (but super vibey) brick building on 17th ave in the Beltline of downtown Calgary. The 2nd floor tenants are loud hair dressers, and the 1st floor tenant is a record shop :) There is no one above us. Once these improvements are done we need to go in there and build our walls. Hopefully 2nd week of April. My goal is to be open for business May 1. (tight i know). My desire is to have a master plan of attack and give this plan to a contractor (to quote on) and have him do the work (I will pitch in where i can). So here is my thoughts/plan and would love and really appreciate your input, thoughts, questions and rebuke. Heres my plan so far (based on my reading in rods book and this forum) Walls -really the only walls im proposing is for my vocal/tracking room -double frame, staggered studs (16" OC or 24" OC not sure) -double drywall to each outside face -1" gap between walls (I realize the bigger the better)(space is a luxury for me here) -green glue in btw drywall -roxul insulation (R?) -I'll have to jog around (the walls) the HVAC unit (as seen in pictures) Venting -unsure...i guess ill have to patch into the HVAC there and pipe it into the vocal room -unsure how to do this properly Ceiling -i was thinking of just leaving it and having walls goto ceiling Floor -I read up lots on a floating floor (for my vocal room) and thought it would be good to isolate from the sorta noisy neighbors below. But seems like its not worth it and have no desire to get an engineer in and see if its safe etc..... is that thinking right? Door (BTW Vocal Room and Control Room) -it seems Rod recommends one "super" door. -still unsure how this is built or what advice to give contractor regarding this. My first contractor came back with a door for 4k. Im sure it would be good but that would kill my budget. Cabling -95% of the time i track one channel......most 2 -My goal is to have my computers and all my drives in the server room. -The general contractor electrician is installing some type of tray over head for me and Darren (Compositor / Colorist) to run our cables to the server room. My brain is stalling......Id love to have any feedback and questions, comments etc. Would it help to post the sketchup file? Thanks so much!!!

these pics didnt get upped.

Good luck, you are really really gonna need it! We are in the third week of wall panel install on the third floor @ UofSA, no elevator unless you are moving tools, material deliverys scheduled for early morning, late evening. Well thought out, organized and time sensitive delivery. Did I mention we know what we are doing? It is not only hell, it is hell on a fish-stick! Luckily it isn't an audio related build. We would never make it in less then four weeks :) Hope I can help other than giving the difficult side of building off the ground, Brien

The first thing I see that is a biggie, is that the front end of your control room is not symmetrical. It very much needs to be. The rear is not so important, but the front sure is. Yours front wall has a kink in it, which will mess with your stereo imaging. You won't impress to many people like that! :) The easiest solution is probably just to flatten out that kink. - Stuart -

most definitely. thats a good point. This pics do not show my acoustic treatment (traps etc)... any other thoughts?

This pics do not show my acoustic treatment (traps etc)...

Well, treatment cannot fix a non-symmetrical room. The only way to fix a non-symmetrical room, is to make it symmetrical. You can add all the treatment you want, but it cannot compensate for basic underlying design defects.

It is on the 3rd floor of ...

I'm curious about the floor underneath your room: What is it made of? How is it built? Concrete? Wood? Did you get a structural engineer to check it for you, to make sure you can add all that load you are talking about in isolating your tracking room?

Ceiling -i was thinking of just leaving it and having walls go to ceiling

Then you probably don't need to waste all that money on building such a good wall, since sound will simply flank around it through your totally coupled ceiling! What is that existing ceiling ceiling made of?

Floor -I read up lots on a floating floor (for my vocal room) and thought it would be good to isolate from the sorta noisy neighbors below. But seems like its not worth it and have no desire to get an engineer in and see if its safe etc..... is that thinking right?

You are going to need the structural engineer anyway, since you are planning to add a huge load to the floor with the construction you outlined for your tracking room. It's hard to say if you need to float your floor or not, since you didn't provide any real-world numbers on how loud you will be, how loud your neighbors are, how quite you need the tracking room to be when the neighbors are really making a lot of noise, etc. But most likely floating your floor is not on the cards anyway, since it is extremely heavy, extremely expensive, and extremely hard to do right.

Door (BTW Vocal Room and Control Room) -it seems Rod recommends one "super" door. -still unsure how this is built or what advice to give contractor regarding this.

You say you have Rod's book? You'll find that door on page 94. One other thing I just noticed: You seem to have some three-leaf issues that you will probably want to fix.

we need to go in there and build our walls. Hopefully 2nd week of April. My goal is to be open for business May 1. (tight i know).

Like xSpace said: Good luck with that timing! I think you are being VERY optimistic with that. You'll need a very large team of dedicated professional studio builders to do that, and you don't even have a plan yet! I really doubt that it is possible to build something like you are outlining in just two weeks. Not even two months. Assuming that you want it down right, of course. I suppose you could probably nail together a few bits of wood and drywall in a couple of weeks and call it a studio, but I don't think it would be worthy of the name. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

This pics do not show my acoustic treatment (traps etc)...

Well, treatment cannot fix a non-symmetrical room. The only way to fix a non-symmetrical room, is to make it symmetrical. You can add all the treatment you want, but it cannot compensate for basic underlying design defects.

for sure. i didnt mean to say that my treatment was going to attempt to do that. I have made the changes. the problem is there is a window on that wall right in the middle of where it would be symmetrical. Ill have to figure that out.

I'm curious about the floor underneath your room: What is it made of? How is it built? Concrete? Wood? Did you get a structural engineer to check it for you, to make sure you can add all that load you are talking about in isolating your tracking room?

Its a wood floor...the sub floor is on right now. that's all i know right now.....I have not got a structural engineer in there. The landlord said there were tons of walls in this place before and the walls we are proposing would not be a problem.

Ceiling -i was thinking of just leaving it and having walls go to ceiling Then you probably don't need to waste all that money on building such a good wall, since sound will simply flank around it through your totally coupled ceiling! What is that existing ceiling ceiling made of?

In my vocal room i am proposing a ceiling to the contractor. I have shown him some ideas from rod's book.

Floor -I read up lots on a floating floor (for my vocal room) and thought it would be good to isolate from the sorta noisy neighbors below. But seems like its not worth it and have no desire to get an engineer in and see if its safe etc..... is that thinking right?

You are going to need the structural engineer anyway, since you are planning to add a huge load to the floor with the construction you outlined for your tracking room. It's hard to say if you need to float your floor or not, since you didn't provide any real-world numbers on how loud you will be, how loud your neighbors are, how quite you need the tracking room to be when the neighbors are really making a lot of noise, etc. But most likely floating your floor is not on the cards anyway, since it is extremely heavy, extremely expensive, and extremely hard to do right.

I am not going to attempt a floating floor. i do not have the knowledge nor budget.

Door (BTW Vocal Room and Control Room) -it seems Rod recommends one "super" door. -still unsure how this is built or what advice to give contractor regarding this. You say you have Rod's book? You'll find that door on page 94. One other thing I just noticed: You seem to have some three-leaf issues that you will probably want to fix.

I showed that section of the book to the contractor and we are good to go. Regarding the three leaf issues. What do you mean?

we need to go in there and build our walls. Hopefully 2nd week of April. My goal is to be open for business May 1. (tight i know). Like xSpace said: Good luck with that timing! I think you are being VERY optimistic with that. You'll need a very large team of dedicated professional studio builders to do that, and you don't even have a plan yet! I really doubt that it is possible to build something like you are outlining in just two weeks. Not even two months. Assuming that you want it down right, of course. I suppose you could probably nail together a few bits of wood and drywall in a couple of weeks and call it a studio, but I don't think it would be worthy of the name. - Stuart -

Unfortunately I do not have a team of builders. We will have to do our best. My desire is not to "nail together a few bits of wood and drywall". That's why Im here reading and posting....and investing my time and money. Im not interested in building a "studio" im interested in building a place for me to create the best products I can. If we have to go into May ....well....we'll have to go into May. I know im inexperienced with this but building my vocal room (3 walls) seems hard to believe it would take 2-3 guys more than "2 months". Thanks for yours and others' comments and advice so far. Keep it coming! Mitch

and investing my time and money.

I'm sorry but I don't believe it will be a wise investment to try and accomplish this in less than a month :shock: Remember you can't just go out and buy everything at your local store. Some stuff you might have to order, take into account mistakes as well, having to backtrack on those, demolition, not to mention coming to something down the line you may have to troubleshoot or.

Regarding the three leaf issues. What do you mean?

You say you have read Rod's book and spent a lot of time on this forum, but you are unaware of one the major aspects of acoustic building

Im not interested in building a "studio" im interested in building a place for me to create the best products I can.

You are not attempting to build a studio, yet your plans call for a control room and vocal booth? :? Forgive me again but you cannot get the "best quality product" for a small amount of effort. I was just as naive as the next person coming to this forum thinking I could bang out a great music box in no time - boy was I wrong. Many people here helped me to slow down my project a bit, and plan prior to making any movements. Because of that, I know that the outcome will be better at the end because more preparation and thought was put into what I wanted to accomplish. How will you be able to impress clients with a poor sounding room/build, It would be unfair to even charge them for any of your services. If your want to impress them, get a good plan going, don't try and rush through it Stuart and Brien (if I'm correct) for example haven't even started their builds yet, but are some of the more knowledgeable people on this forum, it's just all about preparation. I'm not trying to knock or hack on ya, while there are many ways to build a great studio, there's only ever going to be one way to do it right and that is with a well planned idea and the willingness to accept the fact that you may need to change things that may not be feasible in order to accomplish this plan. Ian

Shoot, I'm starting on my fifth build for the 12th time!! ;)

Well see, you make a living doing construction and haven't even got it right yet, haha :wink: :lol:

and investing my time and money.

I'm sorry but I don't believe it will be a wise investment to try and accomplish this in less than a month :shock: Remember you can't just go out and buy everything at your local store. Some stuff you might have to order, take into account mistakes as well, having to backtrack on those, demolition, not to mention coming to something down the line you may have to troubleshoot or. You say you have read Rod's book and spent a lot of time on this forum, but you are unaware of one the major aspects of acoustic building

The reason for this post was to help me flesh those things out. I have read yes....understand it all....no. I would like to learn. Is it my crappy sketchup model that you are referring to? I would like to do a double framed wall with staggered studs, and double drywall on the outside faces. This seems to be whats recommended here and best bang for the buck....no?

Im not interested in building a "studio" im interested in building a place for me to create the best products I can.

You are not attempting to build a studio, yet your plans call for a control room and vocal booth? :? Forgive me again but you cannot get the "best quality product" for a small amount of effort. I was just as naive as the next person coming to this forum thinking I could bang out a great music box in no time - boy was I wrong. Many people here helped me to slow down my project a bit, and plan prior to making any movements. Because of that, I know that the outcome will be better at the end because more preparation and thought was put into what I wanted to accomplish. How will you be able to impress clients with a poor sounding room/build, It would be unfair to even charge them for any of your services. If your want to impress them, get a good plan going, don't try and rush through it

This has been in the works for a few months. I have not had a chance to flesh it out with knowledgable people. I have no problems pushing it back. But I also too am loosing money the longer this takes. On the other hand Im not prepared to throw up crap. The lease is for 3 years but if things go well I will stay longer. But im prepared to slow things down. thanks for any help.

I'm not trying to knock or hack on ya, while there are many ways to build a great studio, there's only ever going to be one way to do it right and that is with a well planned idea and the willingness to accept the fact that you may need to change things that may not be feasible in order to accomplish this plan. Ian

Totally. I agree with this. So so far....Im finding a way to build out that wall so my control/mix/compose room will be symmetrical. What are some other thoughts?

I would first start with what existing structures or members can be removed, not removed, or added to. You also have to determine what loads you can put on the floor and/or ceiling without jeopardizing the structure. For a floor, most recommend concrete, and your sills right on top of that. If you have a raised wooden floor - its not good. Throw out staggered stud idea, and go for a double studded wall 24" oc. Learn, search, and research MSM/MAM - Mass Spring Mass - it will be your friend. Leafs also fall into this, as you want a double leaf wall, no more, no less. Take some of these terms and use the search option up top, read as much and as many build threads as you can. Find out what others did wrong, or right, or how they solved an issue they were having, trust me it will help. Everyone here is more than willing to give you a hand as long as you are willing to put forth the effort. Ian

I was under the impression from reading here that my original post was a two leaf design. -double frame, staggered studs (16" OC or 24" OC not sure) -double drywall to each outside face -1" gap between studs -green glue in btw drywall -roxul insulation (R?)

The landlord said there were tons of walls in this place before and the walls we are proposing would not be a problem.

That might be good news, but is he willing to put that in writing and sign it? If not, I think I'd still pay a structural engineer to take a look. It would be a worthwhile investment in your own peace of mind, I reckon. The floor may well be able to take it, and I hope it can, but the landlord can't tell you that for sure unless he is a qualified structural engineer.

I am not going to attempt a floating floor. i do not have the knowledge nor budget.

Smart decision, I reckon!

I showed that section of the book to the contractor and we are good to go. Regarding the three leaf issues. What do you mean?

On the side of your vocal booth, facing the passage (I think it is a passage? Or maybe a storage room?) you have a wall that has three leaves in it. That will reduce the isolation properties of that wall at low frequencies. Your walls should have only two leaves. Never one, never three, never more: Only two: Mass-Spring-Mass. A couple of layers of drywall/MDF/plywood/whatever attached to one stud frame on one side: that is your first "Mass". Then comes an air gap filled with insulation. That is your "Spring". Then comes another couple of layers of drywall/MDF/plywood/whatever attached to a second stud frame. That's your second "Mass". All together you have Mass-Spring-Mass. That's what you want for a wall. If you add another bunch of drywall/etc with another air gap, then your isolation goes DOWN, not up. You can lose isolation in the low frequencies like that, unless you add a LOT more mass to compensate. It would be far easier to deal with that third leaf now on paper, than to try to do something about it during your actual construction.

seems hard to believe it would take 2-3 guys more than "2 months".

I agree with you! That's what I thought when I first came to this forum: "Piece of cake! A week or two to design it, another couple to build it, and maybe a week or so to test it and treat it. No brainer! Candy from a baby!". That was around six MONTHS ago, and I have not yet bought a single stud or nail, as I'm not ready yet. Getting real close, but not there yet. I need to get a really good handle on understanding acoustics, and plan my design and build down to the last minute detail. Then I will start building. Yeah, it is hard to believe when you first look at it. I know that feeling well. But it is the truth. Sorry if folks here seem harsh and unfriendly! I guess we go overboard a bit with that sometime, but the reason is to get your attention. I think that has been accomplished already! :) Don't take it personally: If you get lots of folks posting opinions on your thread, then you are actually LUCKY! They are all trying to help you, not trying to put you down. You seem to be one of the lucky ones... :) It takes some getting used to, though. You need to develop a thick skin, and latch on to the information in the posts, while disregarding the harshness. Some folks can't handle that, it seems: They post twice, get good advice couched in rough terms twice, then never come back. I often wonder just how bad their studios turned out.... - Stuart -

I would like to do a double framed wall with staggered studs, and double drywall on the outside faces. This seems to be whats recommended here and best bang for the buck....no?

Maybe it's just a semantics thing? To me "double framed wall" and "staggered studs" are two different things. "Double framed" means that you have to entirely separate stud frames, with nothing joining them (except the floor), and the studs are not staggered. Each frame has its own sole plate (bottom plate), its own top plates, adn the studs all line up with each other. "Staggered studs" means that you have one single sole plate that is wider than the studs, and a single set of top plates of the same width as the sole plate. The studs join the plates (obviously!) and are set on alternating faces of the plates. For example, a staggered stud wall might have 2x6 plates, with 2x4 studs on it, where the odd-numbered studs will line up with one edge of the plates and will carry one bunch of drywall, while the even numbered studs will line up with the other edge of the plates, and will carry the drywall for the other side of the wall. Wow! That sounded complicated! reading it back, I'm not even sure if I understand myself what I just wrote!! :) So with a staggered stud wall, the top and bottom plates are actually common to both sides of the wall, and they will transmit sound to some extent. A staggered stud wall is better than a single stud frame wall, but not as good as a double stud frame wall. Go for double stud if you have the space, or staggered stud if space is really tight. So are you planning on staggered stud walls, or double stud walls? Double are better, but take up a bit more space. If they are double, then they don't need to be staggered (I guess you could stagger them, but it would not serve any useful acoustic purpose, and would take up even more space).

(16" OC or 24" OC not sure)

Go for 24" OC if you can: It brings down the resonant frequency of your wall slightly, which is a good thing. But check on your ceiling construction too: Your inner leaf ceiling will need plenty of support, and if you need to go to 16"OC for your ceiling joists, then you should probably go to 16"OC for your studs to, so that you have a stud exactly under the end of each joist. If you can do your ceiling safely with 24"OC, then great! Do 24"OC for the walls too, once again with a stud directly under each end of each joist. - Stuart -

This is the three-leaf issue I noticed: - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I would like to do a double framed wall with staggered studs, and double drywall on the outside faces. This seems to be whats recommended here and best bang for the buck....no?

Maybe it's just a semantics thing? To me "double framed wall" and "staggered studs" are two different things. "Double framed" means that you have to entirely separate stud frames, with nothing joining them (except the floor), and the studs are not staggered. Each frame has its own sole plate (bottom plate), its own top plates, adn the studs all line up with each other. "Staggered studs" means that you have one single sole plate that is wider than the studs, and a single set of top plates of the same width as the sole plate. The studs join the plates (obviously!) and are set on alternating faces of the plates. For example, a staggered stud wall might have 2x6 plates, with 2x4 studs on it, where the odd-numbered studs will line up with one edge of the plates and will carry one bunch of drywall, while the even numbered studs will line up with the other edge of the plates, and will carry the drywall for the other side of the wall. Wow! That sounded complicated! reading it back, I'm not even sure if I understand myself what I just wrote!! :) So with a staggered stud wall, the top and bottom plates are actually common to both sides of the wall, and they will transmit sound to some extent. A staggered stud wall is better than a single stud frame wall, but not as good as a double stud frame wall. Go for double stud if you have the space, or staggered stud if space is really tight. So are you planning on staggered stud walls, or double stud walls? Double are better, but take up a bit more space. If they are double, then they don't need to be staggered (I guess you could stagger them, but it would not serve any useful acoustic purpose, and would take up even more space).

(16" OC or 24" OC not sure)

Go for 24" OC if you can: It brings down the resonant frequency of your wall slightly, which is a good thing. But check on your ceiling construction too: Your inner leaf ceiling will need plenty of support, and if you need to go to 16"OC for your ceiling joists, then you should probably go to 16"OC for your studs to, so that you have a stud exactly under the end of each joist. If you can do your ceiling safely with 24"OC, then great! Do 24"OC for the walls too, once again with a stud directly under each end of each joist. - Stuart -

ok. got it. ya what i was talking about was what you are calling double walls. I was thinking off off setting the studs (like in rods book page 61) ...... i figured that would be better for transmission. but it sounds like it doesnt really help. That third leaf you are referring to is the wall to the bathroom. I cant remove or do anything with that. So should my 2nd leaf be that wall? I attatched the pic showing the #3 wall that I cant move or do anything to.

so heres the latest revisions to my walls. let me know your thoughts. i changed it so the bathroom wall (which i cannot do anything to) is part of my 2nd leaf. not sure if this is correct. thanks for any help.

Yup! That's more like it! You just need to fix up the ends of your walls so that the inner leaf and outer leaf are isolated from each other, but the three-leaf issue is gone now, and the front of the studio is symmetrical. Much better! About that bathroom wall: How is that built? What kind of construction? If it is a single layer of brick or concrete, then you are fine. But if it is a stud wall then you'll probably need to take off drywall from the side that faces your vocal booth, or you'll still have a three leaf system there. - Stuart -

im pretty sure its steel framed with one layer of drywall. How should i have my corners so the leafs are isolated?

How should i have my corners so the leafs are isolated?

just like a box within another box :D

im pretty sure its steel framed with one layer of drywall.

You mean one layer on EACH SIDE of the steel frame, or one layer on ONE SIDE ONLY, with the other side open to the world? If it is one layer on each side, then you will need to take of the layer from the other side. You could also use that drywall (take it off carefully!) to beef up the other side, in between the studs, for extra isolation.

How should i have my corners so the leafs are isolated?

Like Ian said: "Box in a box". Make sure that NO part of the inner-leaf wall touches the outer-leaf wall. Two separate, unconnected walls. So the walls inside your vocal booth ONLY touch each other, and they support the inner ceiling, which ONLY touches the inner walls. None of that has any mechanical connection with the outer wall. If there is any connection at all (even one single nail) then you are "short-circuiting" your isolation, which will reduce your transmission loss considerably. - Stuart -

so like this? regarding the bathroom wall. its one piece of drywall on each side. there is a bathroom on the otherside of that wall. i wouldnt be able to rip that piece out.

That's better! Your corners are looking good now. Regarding the bathroom: You don't need to take of the drywall INSIDE the bathroom: that can stay in place. But you really should take of the drywall on the side that faces your vocal booth, or else you will end up with a three-leaf system on that wall. So bass isolation into that bathroom will not be good, and low-frequency sounds inside the bathroom will get into your vocal booth more easily. Since you are going to be building walls there anyway, there should not be any problem with taking off that drywall. If you ever need to dismantle your studio and leave the building, then you'd just put some new drywall on there again. No big deal. - Stuart -

Here's the thing that bothers me: when are we talking two leafs? On a single stud wall (say 24' OC), GB on both sides and air/wool in between if you want. To me that's just one leaf. The whole partition is one big object. Sure there's some air in between the GB, so? if I'd replace it with some dense material. Would that solve the issue? Aren't my studs making it one big leaf already? (no matter the material between the GB layers) ? On the other hand...