New Room in Industrial Stip Center Questions

Hey All Second post, still a great site !!!! Here is what i have. 2200 sq ft. tilt wall back wall regular wall between suites on both sides and glass up front. i will post a diagram if needed but my questions really do not rely on a pic. I fully understand the two leaf wall system. But, what do I do if..... the wall next to the other suite is a two leaf wall already. is there a space from that wall that will make that wall basically null in the two leaf design? another words, if i make my new "Shell" (outer wall of two leaf system) 5 feet, 7 feet, 8 feet, etc. away from the existing wall, that I can not move, will I then get back to a two leaf system. Man that's confussing!!! Basically, I have about 45' X 70' that I can build out for my control room, Iso, and tracking room. I would like to build an exterior shell consisting of: 5/8" Rock 1/2" rock Wood Stud/Insulation 8" air gap Then build the second leaf of the sytem on floating plywood over 2X6" wood on Rubber (neoprine - cant spell) Floating Floor. consisting of: 8" gap (as stated above) wood stud/Insulation 1/2" Rock 1/2" MDF 1/2" Rock All this I got from the site (totally Rocks) but here are the questions.... 1. how far from existing 2 leaf wall must I go to start my new two leaf wall System? 2. How do I connect the Stud walls to each other, not the two leafs, but the outter shell (Leaf One) to each other including ceiling joists of the whole leaf. I Fully understand the mass (Rock, MDF, etc.) side of things. I will use RC and leave a 1/8" gap and caulk the crap out of it with acoustic caulk. But, the actual stud frame. Do I use normal framing practice and nail the angles together making a stiff frame? Plus, I found the Diy joist mounts steve designed, but it appears as if those are for joists that are already hanging, like a basement studio. Once again do I put rubber on my header sill of the wall studs and just rest the joists with traditional hangers? Doesn't it null the rubber on the sill by nailing the wall to the ceiling joist? 3. about the existing ceiling. It is a typical tilt wall constucted building. Massive 24" metal joist running the length of my building. It has angle iron running from it making the ceiling support grid holding up a tin roof with tar topper. From the bottom of the joist up to the roof is about 3' 6".Once again, How far from this layer do i need to have my new two leaf system start? From slab to "In the Clear" , bottom of big joist is 13'7" I would like to have my new outter leaf be 7" below this , giving me an available 12' finished ceiling hieght ofter second leaf construction. 4. A/C....... that will be the next post. I need to review and search more of this site before asking anything. It seems to me that a/c vents and returns just put a big ol' hole in my two leaf system with just flimsy tubing. Will post questions later. Once again thank you for all the help and advise. I know this is alot of questions for my second post, but if anybody has any wiring (electrical or audio) questions I will do my part to help where I can. jai www.themixstudio.com :D

does my breath stink? I just took my weekly shower, I promise I don't stink. :D seriously, I really need some help here. I am in wait mode to start this construction but do not want to make a big mistake. Steve, John, God ??? anybody? Thanks, jai

Greetings! Saw your post over the weekend, but didn't get a chance to reply until this morning... Anyway, the main problems with a 3-leaf wall aren't that it doesn't perform better than a 2-leaf system. It's that it isn't enough of a performance gain to justify the added cost and lost floor area. Since the tenant wall is there, and probably isn't offering too much isolation on it's own, and since you seem to have plenty of floor space, having an internal wall and creating a 3-leaf wall condition isn't going to hurt you too much. If you're building in an industrial-type tenant space, you've got the outer envelope pretty much provided. And since it's to your advantage to build an inner envelope for the individual rooms, you don't have to worry about messing up the inside of your landlord's space. Float the floors individually for each space, build walls up off those floating floors, and set individual ceilings off the walls. Other people here will give better advice than I regarding the HVAC stuff. The glass in front will probably lend itself to a decent front waiting/reception type area, and as long as it's isolated from the rest of the studio you shouldn't have to worry about a sound leak out those windows... Got any ideas for a layout? Good luck! Kase www.minemusic.net

cool. Thanks for the reply. couple questions. 1. are you saying I only need to build the inner walls? or will I build a new two leaf on top of the floating floors. I.E. leave the framing untreated on the outside with just insulation, like a two leaf seperate wall ssystem? 2. build ceiling off the walls? do you mean float the ceiling with neoprine on top off the walls? If not, how do I suspend the framing and wouldn't that leave a big gap all around the top of my walls? Is accoustic caulk that good? Thanks, jai www.themixstudio.com

sorry just reread my post and need to clarify things a bit on question 1. I don't mean build a new two leaf system on top of the floating floar. I mean build a new two leaf system with one leaf on the concrete slab and the inner leaf on the floating floor. with about an 8" air gap. Yes, I have a design in mind but am waiting for some of these answers before I put it on paper and then post here for comments and ideas. I have actually built a couple of rooms over my career with varying LUCK, I now realize after finding this site. Actually I built a room in another industrial strip center about 4 years ago. The room looked real good, and inside the room the sound was pristine and flat.......but on the outside it almost sounded like I built an amatheater instead of a sound proof box. HA HA HA plus it cost me $45,000.00. You see I can laugh now cus it's been 4 years and i have recovered. But I can not afford to screw up again. The wife says this is the last chance. Once again thanks all for the help. jai www.themixstudio.com

OK, Jai, I'm finally starting to get caught up but I need you to clarify your questions - it sounds like you already have a pretty good idea, so I'm not sure what you still need to know... Steve

Thanks, I understand the delay totally. My main questions now are these: all though Dynmaxian might have answered one. 1. in a strip industrial center i will have tenents on both sides of me. There is already a two leaf wall. Do I need to move a certain number of feet away from this wall and start my new two leaf system consisting of an outter wall with various layers of mass built on framed to existing slab then air gap (8") then on my new floating floor build the second leaf of the system floating on rubber(neoprine). ..... Or do I only need build the inner leaf on the floating floor after beefing up the existing wall with mass (glued, not screwed) 2. How do I isolate wall framing? do i just use standard practice and nail framing to framing on each leaf (Not Leaf to Leaf) ? 3. Do I rest the ceiling joists on the header of the walls on top of neoprine or do I need to do something else? I saw your isolation DUY brackets for existing basement ceilings but I will not have an existing ceiling except for the tar over tin roof associated with tilt wall construction. somewhere I read here that I should float the ceiling? How? I hope this all makes sense. it does in my head but thats not saying much. Ha Ha Thanks for the Help, jai www.themixstudio.com

No, the ceilings of the individual rooms don't need to float off the tops of the walls. You can nail them right down to it (in fact, I think you should - I doubt there's any gain from separation there). The idea is that you're making a closed box for each room, and when somdthing makes noise inside, it'll vibrate the floor, walls, ceiling, anything it hits. If those vibrations make it to the outside building structure or the tenant separation wall, they'll conduct the sound all over the building. If you can keep these vibrations from getting into the concrete slab below you, or the tenant wall between you and the other tenants, or the ceiling above you, it'll keep them from transmitting sound. You do this by enclosing each room, and keeping them floated off the floor with the neoprene. But the walls and ceiling don't need to be isolated from each other- they're in direct path of the sound source, so they'll be vibrating no matter what. That's ok. The reason I say not to worry about the '3-leaf' situation with the tenant wall is because there's a good chance that tenant wall wasn't built with much sound isolation in mind. If you depend on that wall to stop sound, you might get in trouble. As far as the air gap between them, I'd make it an inch or 2 from the face of the tenant wall to the outside of the room's wall studs. In this case, I would wallboard the INSIDE FACE ONLY, probably with 2 layers of drywall. This'll give you a decent air-gap between your inside-inside wall and the first face of the tenant wall. If you drywall the outer face of your interior walls, it won't do you so much good, and will just cut down your air gap. No need to worry about using resilient channels on the interior walls; the structural separation from the floating floor will do it all for you. I'll sketch up a quick section for you when I get out of this meeting, but they're calling me. ;) If you're going to be renting a space in an industrial center, I'm assuming that the outer building is a complete envelope; it's not partly outside or exposed to the weather or anything, is it? If the overall building is more or less completely closed, then that'll be your exterior walls. In that case, there's no need to build an inner and outer wall- just build the interior spaces as you need them. If the space is as big as you say, you can pretty much do whatever you want to it. I find it hard to believe you'll be pressed for space. Do you have an existing plan, showing the space as it is now? The only thing I can think of that would be a concern would be location of bathroom/mechanical rooms. Good luck! Kase www.minemusic.net

Yarg! Can't get to my ftp site! The one I usually use has an anti-hotlink protocol, so I can't put it there... and my homepage doesn't seem to like me right now. Anyone got a place to stash a 150k pdf for me? All the jpgs I tried to turn it into look like ass... But I got the section drawn... Kase www.minemusic.net EDITED I suppose you can just copy-and-paste this into your browser... http://www.minemusic.net/floatingfloorsection.pdf You might get a pic of Jonny Cash giving you the finger tho, so beware.

Kase, you can post up to 150k PDF's here - Steve

Yeah, I figured I could make it work if I had to, but it'd probably be too big and mess up the layout of the thread. *shrug* I'm trying to NOT cause trouble :wink: Kase www.minemusic.net

No prob, you're helping plenty - besides, PDF's just show up as a downloadable, so they won't stretch the screen out like big jpg's or bmp's do... Steve

wow, Thanks a million. You have answered my questions perfect. :D I will now sit tonight and draw out the existing and new construction layouts for all to see and give ideas. I pasted the link to my browser, didn't get Johnny but a redirect to comcast saying file has been moved. Thank You!!!!!!!! jai www.themixstudio.com

Hey All. here is the first of the drawings. I went last night and took my own measurments to make sure all was as stated by realator. NOT!!!!!! room width is much smaller than thought but still plenty of room to grow. This is exsisting diagram: I will post proposed studio layout within next few hours. Thanks for the help and feedback jai www.themixstudio.com

Hey I cant figure out how to post my pic. it is only 40k jpeg is there something I can do dif? jai

Have the pic anywhere on your hard drive - then, click the browse button below the "typing window" (need a subject or it won't post) browse to the picture file, double-click the file. Now, the small Filename window should have the path to your file; then click Submit. Works for me... Steve

here are existing layout

OK I can Not get it to save path and load. i have tried Jpeg, and giff both under 100k. I put a subject in but still no post. when I hit add attachment is does its thing but then comes back with no attach path or attachment. Any ideas? i am within all specs i believe. sorry for the stupid probs. jai

O.K. So I am an idiot and can not post these here so i have set them up on my website. Here is the Link: www.themixstudio.com/layout.html I have a few questions but will wait to see if this will work in the experts eyes. My questions are very specific to this design. Let me know what ya'll think.... jai www.themixstudio.com

O.K. A few more quesstions as they pop up. 1. We (You all) have determined I only need buil a single leaf on my floating floors cus of the existing leaf of the building. But do I need to Pu Drywall on the angle iron ceiling. The tar over tin has venting and is really not a leaf-as I study other posts here. Other posts point to the venting and say this will not be a suitable leaf. Is this the case? 2. Between my control room B and A do I need to build a 2nd leaf or do I just extend the air gap and still only build each inner leaf of each studio? Thanks for the help, jai www.themixstudio.com

Jai, looks like you have a good start on a floor plan, but I'm short on time and so didn't look really close yet - basically, for sound isolation the BEST (not the only) way is two leaf, one air space. In the case where you have no control over the outer leaf of your tenant walls, your only choice is to do what you can on your own side. In this case, you'll have to ignore the outer leaf and put at least two more layers of wallboard on your side of the wall - then, if you use metal studs (or wood for that matter) and build a second wall frame, put wallboard only on one side of that frame. I know this gives effectively a triple wall, but if you put one more layer on each of the two leaves you have access to, it will minimise the loss caused by the triple leaf construction. I don't know any way around this, short of replacing that wall with something different from scratch. For isolation within your studio, you need to analyze each barrier as a separate case - the sound needs to have two, and only two, leaves of mass between the sound source and ANYWHERE it tries to go. Things that improve isolation - hermetic sealing everywhere, wider air gap between leaves, heavier mass, different characteristics in any pair of leaves in a sound wall, 2.5 to 3 PCF insulation in walls, insulation touching the panels to dampen vibrations, no hard contact between adjoining walls, and probably a few I've forgotten to mention. If you start with beefing up your outer perimeter, then you can consider that your "first leaf" between your tracking areas and the neighbors. The concrete wall, while not bad, will also benefit from a separate frame (around 8" air gap is a good compromise) and at least two layers of wallboard. Play with these thoughts a bit and ask more... Steve

Well, you're probably right about the ceiling not doing you much good. Most of the time, the roof needs to be watertight (you do have a good roof here, don't you? Don't need water dripping onto your recording gear!) and that'll be pretty close to air-tight. The vents in it can be protected pretty easily. How high is the existing ceiling in there, anyway? If you can wallboard under the roof joists/trusses/whatever, that might solve the roofing problem too. As far as extra leaves between the control rooms (or any of the sound-sensitive rooms) you should be ok with just wall-boarding the inside faces of the rooms. As long as each room is pretty much self-contained, there shouldnt be much sound moving between them. Out in the common space, you will get more noise coming out of the tracking rooms, but that's not hard to deal with... You seem to have a perimeter between the common area with the offices, bathroom, and waiting rooms, and the recording area. If you extend this wall up to the ceiling and wallboard one side, you'll have the second of 2 leaves separating the 2 areas. The air above the recording rooms' ceilings will act as the spring area (even tho it's a very big spring). Hope this helps- you've got a great space there. We're used to people posting with 15'x15'x7' high spaces, saying they want a tracking room big enough for a 4 piece band, 2 iso booths and as big a control room as they can get... Good luck! Kase www.minemusic.net

Kase Thanks a million for all the help. I think Im pretty clear as to my construction issues. I am gonna move on over to the design forum and bother John for a while. I am hoping that by the time I get the shells built I will have a better grasp of the fihish out. If anybody ever needs any electrical or audio wiring help send them my way, I'd love to help where I can. Jai www.themixstudio.com