My soffit plans

cadesignr wrote:

These might suggest something to you.

But anyway: in your diagram, your soffits (the panels with the speakers in them) do not seem to be wide enough to be very effective. They need to be as wide as possible, 48" being ideal.Yours don't seem the be more than a few inches wider than the speakers themselves.

Apparently, since he designed this whole studio, and had the option, Mr. Latchot isn't aware of this. You should inform him. Oh, about the fabric thing too...

Do you speak for Mr. Latchot?

cadesignr wrote:

These might suggest something to you.

External image, not preserved — original: http://httpics.com//is.php?i=1171&img=WL_CR_front_wal.jpg

External image, not preserved — original: http://httpics.com//is.php?i=1172&img=7324WL_CR_front_wal.jpg

External image, not preserved — original: http://httpics.com//is.php?i=1174&img=3923WL_CR_front_wal.jpg

Isnt that control room and live room COUPLED by the ceiling?? :shock:

Do you speak for Mr. Latchot?

No , the pictures do..loud can clearly.. :roll: Besides Brien, what does that have to do with anything? The pictures also speak for themself and are DEAD ON in relationship to the quote from Stuart. :roll: :twisted:

Isnt that control room and live room COUPLED by the ceiling??

It "appears" to be. As well as the floor, although in another picture I have, and if you look closely, I believe the walls "float" on a "decoupling product"(can't remember the name). I don't pretend to know all there is to know about this project nor do I speak for Mr. Latchot. I only used some pictures from a project the owner posted on another forum. However, I have seen another project of Mr. Latchots that the owner described this product and posted closeups of it. I'll see if I can find it. But good catch, which brings up my point PRECISELY. And if you look closely, there are half a dozen OTHER "absolutes" which this project illustrates are not so absolute. Here is the deal. I only posted this to illustrate one thing. Opinions here and elsewhere, that depict certain techniques and concept parameters in Studio Design and construction as "absolutes' are always questionable to "me", as I see contridictions to these "absolutes" all the time. Studio design dogma and "schools of thought" perfectly illustrate there are "absolutes" each camp adhere to...but when push comes to shove...for every absolute, there is ample proof these absolutes are not so absolute. I see it here and elsewhere all the time. :roll: And it just cracks me up. :lol: FURTHERMORE, when I presented just a few of these "absolutes" to two well known Studio Designers who are mods on another bbs/forum, not only did they squirm for a while, but when I posted a quote from another bbs on a certain subject that suggested the use of certain acoustical products used by the mods in their projects, was more for "eye candy" than sound acoustical principles, they decided the public at large should not be privy to this sort of "truth", to the point they not only removed ALL of my posts, they decided it would be in THEIR best interests to keep me at bay, at least on their forum, by "altering" my "permissions" to post. Although I had adhered to the "rules", they, without notifying me, essentially "banned" me for no reason other than I was making them VERY uncomfortable. This was proof enough for me that Studio Design is rampant with ...lets just call it..nonsense. How bout this one for good measure. IF, RPG's(manufacturers of Diffusion products) so called Diffusion products are so freaking good, why in gods name do they use CURVED PLATE DIFFUSERS in their OWN testing lab INSTEAD of their OWN damn DIFFUSERS...hmm-mmm? And that is NOT "my" question..it comes DIRECTLY from an owner of a well known Acoustical products company. :roll: However, THAT is my point. Even Mr. Latchot uses RPG all the time. I wonder why, hmm-mmm?

very interesting photos cadesignr, thanks for posting them. I now realise those timber slot looking thingos on the side walls are just eye candy - I though they at least would have insulation behind them. It reminds me of a studio I once visited that had timber and cloth walls alternating- on closer examination I discovered the cloth was felt stuck onto drywall. :shock:

cadesignr wrote:

Do you speak for Mr. Latchot?

No , the pictures do..loud can clearly.. :roll: Besides Brien, what does that have to do with anything? The pictures also speak for themself and are DEAD ON in relationship to the quote from Stuart. :roll: :twisted:

Here is why I ask Fitz. Unless you have intimate knowledge of this build it goes against what some of us here have come to know and love. Jbassino has brought up one issue :) It seems to me, if you being an unknown, were showing my work in support of an argument, your argument, I would want you to be dead on with your cause and completely accurate with your interpretation, not to show my work in a bad light, when you display it without my consent. Is that almost litigious of me? :) There must be things going on in this picture...outside of whatever you and Stuart are debating over, that need clarification if only because now the picture exists, where once it did not? Does that make some sense?

Maybe I can clear a couple of things up for you guys. First of all, my name is really not that hard to spell. Check out my signature. John, the wood pattern is not a slat resonator, but neither is it merely eye candy, in case you're interested in knowing more about it. What it is is a precise mathematical pattern of alternating reflective and absorptive regions developed by RPG Diffusor Systems, called a "diffsorber" pattern. It's purpose on the side walls is to widen the sweet spot and provide more realistic imaging at the rear of the control room. With regard to the ceiling coupling, sometimes we do allow this, depending upon the larger situation. In this case, noise from above was the far greater threat, and it was determined that we could not allow any breaks in the membrane for any reason whatsoever. The isolation between the tracking room and the control room is excellent, due to the combination of all the perninent factors. I cranked up "Voodoo Lounge" to an ear-splitting level in the control room and walked into the tracking room, closed the sound lock doors, and could barely hear a thing. Good soffit implimentation is the limiting factor for this to work properly, in my experience. But it is true that we make every effort to remove flanking paths if possible. Anyone who does this for a living as I do knows that the ideal is just not always possible. Cadesigner is absolutely correct that there are no absolutes. RPG makes some incredibly useful products, but to be fair, not everything they make is on the same level. I don't use their plastic products, for instance. But also to be fair, their leadership in the industry, extensive testing, willingness to do custom designs, and thousands of happy customers put them in a league of their own. The products of theirs that I use, I do so because they sound good to me - it's that simple. Creating great sounding rooms is what pays our bills. I don't have the luxury of monkeying around with stuff just because it looks cool. This business is way too competitive for that sort of shenanigans. We invite you to hear one of our rooms and see for yourself. Hope this is helpful. Carry on. -Wes

Thanks for joining the forum Wes! Do you mind sharing what material you used for the walls? Just drywall? And how many layers? Also, could you talk more about those "diffsorbers"? Any pictures on how they are built? Thanks :D

jbassino wrote:

Thanks for joining the forum Wes! Do you mind sharing what material you used for the walls? Just drywall? And how many layers? Also, could you talk more about those "diffsorbers"? Any pictures on how they are built? Thanks :D

Those walls use 3 layers of 5/8" drywall per side. One side is mounted directly on the studs, and the other is mounted on hat channel with resilient clips. This was the best solution for this particular project, but we use a variety of methods--dual wall, staggered stud, green glue, various numbers of layers, etc., depending upon the particular situation. It's not a one-size-fits-all sort of thing, and the real art of it, of course, is squeezing just the right amount of sound isolation into the available budget. The budget always seems to be just a bit smaller than it should be--know what I mean? The diffsorbers use the "Chinese remainder theorem" math developed by Trevor Cox and Peter D'Antonio. They published a paper on it a little over a decade ago. I have been using it for years, when it seems appropriate, and it does sound good. That's the acid test. The diffusion is mostly midrange diffusion, but that's the frequency range where diffusion can really help. The roughly 50% relective surface is a plus at high frequencies, and depending on what you do behind the scenes, you can get some very nice targeted bass trapping going. That's the part that's proprietary--I can't give away all of my secrets! The main point is that the side walls are a great place for diffsorbers if you're trying to extend the sweet spot toward the rear of the room. It's not always so wise to put full range diffusors there without absorption, yet too much absorption can make the room too dead. So diffsorption is just the ticket. -Wes

Thanks Wes for the info ! Very appreciated So, I'm guessing you build 1" frames with cloth strappled and put a layer of rigid insulation, probably 1" inside the frame. Then nail it to the wall and later install the wooden slats in your desired pattern Same for the front wall? You build the same cloth-frames-with-insulation over the extended baffle ? In other words, you make the front wall fully absorptive as well? Also, where do you place your bass trapping in the room? Back wall? If so, what kind? Flufly insulation (a lot) covered with cloth? Resonators? Both? I like a lot your designs Wes, so Its great to ask such questions to you

jbassino wrote:

Thanks Wes for the info ! Very appreciated So, I'm guessing you build 1" frames with cloth strappled and put a layer of rigid insulation, probably 1" inside the frame. Then nail it to the wall and later install the wooden slats in your desired pattern Same for the front wall? You build the same cloth-frames-with-insulation over the extended baffle ? In other words, you make the front wall fully absorptive as well? Also, where do you place your bass trapping in the room? Back wall? If so, what kind? Flufly insulation (a lot) covered with cloth? Resonators? Both? I like a lot your designs Wes, so Its great to ask such questions to you

Most of our fabric work is done with a professional stretch fabric system. This allows us to do just about anything we want to do with the fabric. But sometimes we do build frames as well, especially if it can save our clients money. Our installers have gotten really good at both methods, even to the point where a room can be done partially in stretch fabric and partially with panels, and you really can't tell where one leaves off and the other begins. To answer your question about where bass traps are located: 1) The rear wall usually contains fairly deep broadband trapping, as well as tuned membrane or Helmholtz traps behind the scenes. These tuned traps are really what makes our rooms what they are. Over the years, building lots of rooms, we've learned which boundary issues are most important to deal with to create smooth frequency response and decay times, and we've figured out ways of treating these with tuned traps. I can only spell it out for you so much here, but if you search my posts on other forums, I've laid out the principles several times in the past. It all comes down to doing the math on which boundaries are causing nulls at which frequencies, then dealing with those specific frequencies. 2) The ceiling cloud is a big bass trap--always broadband, sometimes more. 3) The soffits, always in the rear, but often on the sides as well, contain broadband, and sometimes tuned, bass traps. 4) If the main speakers are not soffited, we'll uses front-of-room bass trapping as well. But I prefer soffit-mounting whenever possible. 5) Sometimes we work bass traps into the side walls as well. --Wes

John, the wood pattern is not a slat resonator, but neither is it merely eye candy, in case you're interested in knowing more about it. What it is is a precise mathematical pattern of alternating reflective and absorptive regions developed by RPG Diffusor Systems, called a "diffsorber" pattern. It's purpose on the side walls is to widen the sweet spot and provide more realistic imaging at the rear of the control room.

Thank you for clearing that up Wes and for contributing to the forum. I apologise for being so flippant.

John, Hey, no problem. It's an excellent forum; thanks for your hospitality. -Wes

Pretty much what I was after Mr. Lachot. A backlink from the original poster (Fitz, who I respect, but anything out of context, right?) would have been a welcome piece of information, not that we don't need you to explain your work...I wanted to know what it is you were after and why a thing might have been done...your words, not speculation on only one point :) Anyway, thanks for showing up, Brien

Bump! Wes, I had one question regarding your soffit design. I see that the soffit wall, actually is the inner leaf. Any reasons for that other than building an square front end and then build an attached framing for the soffits? (like most people do here) or am I wrong and the pictures dont really show whats going on Thanks Javier

jbassino wrote:

Bump! Wes, I had one question regarding your soffit design. I see that the soffit wall, actually is the inner leaf. Any reasons for that other than building an square front end and then build an attached framing for the soffits? (like most people do here) or am I wrong and the pictures dont really show whats going on Thanks Javier

Javier, There are a couple of reasons for this. As a starting point I usually, if space allows, like to adhere to a true RFZ design theory, utilizing very steeply angled side wall and not relying on absoption in the front end for reflection control. All of the reflection control from the engineer's position forward is accomplished with the wall (and ceiling) angles themselves, so I am not tied to a soft front end unless it's appropriate for a given client. I try to make the liveness/deadness of the front end client-specific, because different people really do have different tastes in that regard. Another reason is that I prefer to stick to a mostly purist "infinite baffle" technique. I feel the bass works best when the wall and the speakers are truly one--de-coupled, of course. -Wes

Thanks for your answer Wes Javier

John- "It reminds me of a studio I once visited that had timber and cloth walls alternating- on closer examination I discovered the cloth was felt stuck onto drywall. " There's a "studio" in Melbourne like that!

First of all, my name is really not that hard to spell. Check out my signiture

:shock: :shock: :shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: OMG!! Hello Mr. Lachot. Please accept my apology. Although there is no excuse for this, apparently this is a simple mind gliTCH. One of the hazards of a 386 brain working in a dual CPU world. :mrgreen: Also, please accept my apology for taking liberties with your name and work. At the time, this project of yours was the first one that came to mind to illustrate my point. Besides, since these photos were on the internet, I felt that as long as I didn't use them unlawfully, nor in bad taste, all is fair. However, from this point on, I will ask your permission if thats OK with you. In regards to the specifics of this project, let me thank you for being so open with information, which is rare in light of what other Pro designers have told me. In that light, I would like to ask you a couple of more questions, although I do understand proprietary design assets are the key to your business. And I respect that. Unfortunately, I am plagued with an insatiable curiosity and a propensity for skepticism when it comes to this stuff. However, to respect the author of this thread by not hijacking it any further, I'll start a new thread when have time if you don't mind a bit of brain picking. :mrgreen:

I feel the bass works best when the wall and the speakers are truly one--de-coupled, of course.

Well,this is exactly the area of my interest in regards to this project. But before I post a new thread, I'll use this to file to identify specific concerns I have. Hope you don't mind my interpretation. Dimensions and such werent available...but I'd submit this is close enough for government work. :mrgreen: I'll be back later with a new thread. Maybe you can fill in some of the blanks for me when I do. Untill then...here is a few UNFINISHED views. And I haven't moved the monitors flush with the soffit yet. Amongst other things...ha! fitZ :D