low ceiling, a-location..

Hi, my first post here.. We're building a studio in the centre of Amsterdam. It's got a low ceiling attic, but I really want to make this work because of the great location, and I read that other people did it before me. The ceiling is 226 cm..after insulation there will be 210 left. Because of the low ceiling I want to make this place as big as possible. People need to be able to reach airco units and such, so there should stay a passway from left to right, around the studio. I'm struggeling with the soffits, I want to keep some space between the speakers, at least more than I get with a 60 deg. angle from my listining position. ( in the plan at 38% from front wall) So advice on speaker placement would be great! And...bottom line is....Is this place going to work? Will it sound nice?! thanks! Barry

:shot: Sorry barry, Edit your profile Read the stickies I'm also have trouble understanding your post. 2.2m is VERY low! I believe the legal limit in Australia is 2.4m

OK let me try and explain some more. This is a project for a mixing room. I am a TV composer mainly, but also record groups and my own projects. I'm planning to build an adjacent live room later, if everything works ok with the low ceilings. The rent is soooo low, and the building is sooo beautiful, right in the city centre, I really want to try this. I'm hoping to get this off the ground for about 8000/10000 Euro. The floor is concrete, I dont want to insulate it, as I don't have enough ceiling height left. There's an office below, but I don't care, for my work I don't need loud, and after office ours I can blast... I want to but up insulation pretty much all across the ceiling, leave the floor hard, and put some wood on the walls for looks. Here's another sketch, ceiling here is at 200cm, as there are 2 beams that low. Actual ceiling will be 210 after insulation. Guys, I need your help with 2 things: Will it work with this ceiling height How to design the soffits Thanks so much for your help!! And if you see things in my first studio design that could be better, I'm all ears... Thx Barry

and picture...

I've improved my design I think. This time I designed the room around the speakers, with a starting point of placing the monitors about 2.7 m apart. In the first design I started with the listening position at 38% from the front wall, this time it's nearer to the back wall...I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing...Does the 38% rule apply to designs like these, or is it more for rectangular rooms? So we have a low ceiling, 2.1 m. with 16 cm of absorbtion and a concrete floor. The dotted line across the sofa is where the ceiling comes down to the top line at a 45 degr angle. I would really like you guys to take a look and tell me where I can improve, as I might be starting construction in a week or so... I'll post a drawing of the soffit angles later. Thanks so much for all the great info here!!!! Cheers, Barry

Hi Barry!

with a starting point of placing the monitors about 2.7 m apart.

That might be too far apart, depending on what speakers you are using: The normal recommendation is to have them about 1 to 2 m apart, otherwise it implies that you are sitting too far away from them to be in the near field, especially in a small room.

38% from the front wall, this time it's nearer to the back wall...I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing...Does the 38% rule apply to designs like these, or is it more for rectangular rooms?

The 38% rule is due that being the "least bad" position between any two parallel surfaces. Your front and back wall are parallel, as they should be, so yes the "rule" applies. By "least bad" I mean that it is the position where there are the least detrimental effects from standing waves However, it is not really a carve-in-stone rule: It's just a starting point. After you actually build the room and start fine-tuning, you'll probably find that you will end up at a slightly different position, probably a bit further forward than 38% (closer to the speakers), so don't worry too much if you can't make the geometry work for you. BUT! It looks to me like your current position is very close to 50% of the room, and that is, indeed, the worst possible position you can have. At 50% of the room there are serious standing wave dips and valleys for all frequencies. You do not want to be there. In any event, the intersection of the speaker lines should be a couple of inches behind your head at the mix position, not right in the center of your head. You want the lines form the speakers to intersect your ears, not your nose: It's hard to listen with your nose! So the 38% position is where your ears are, but the lines intersect a bit behind that.

So we have a low ceiling, 2.1 m. with 16 cm of absorbtion and a concrete floor.

Concrete floor is good! Leave it like that, or put laminate floor on it. Do not put carpet on it. 16cm of absorption on the ceiling is also good! You mean something like fiberglass or rockwool, I guess? But 2.1 m height????? WOW! That's a low ceiling, for sure. That's only just a bit higher than a standard door frame. That is not so good. but I guess you already know that.

The dotted line across the sofa is where the ceiling comes down to the top line at a 45 degr angle

. The ceiling should nto come DOWN at the rear of the room! It should go UP. IT should slope up away from the speakers at an angle of 12 degrees or so, if possible. If not, then just build it flat. What do you mean by "comes down to the top line"? I downloaded your sketchup file, but it is just a flat floorplan! It would help if you actually make it into a full 3D model. - Stuart -

Stuart, thanks for your reply!

That might be too far apart, depending on what speakers you are using: The normal recommendation is to have them about 1 to 2 m apart, otherwise it implies that you are sitting too far away from them to be in the near field, especially in a small room.

I intend to soffit mount main monitors and have my nearfield ns-10's on the console

6cm of absorption on the ceiling is also good! You mean something like fiberglass or rockwool, I guess?

It will be rockwool, type 233, a material that I think is equivalent to the 703 fibre, which isn't available here in Holland.

But 2.1 m height????? WOW! That's a low ceiling, for sure. That's only just a bit higher than a standard door frame. That is not so good. but I guess you already know that.

I know, but I've read that people made it work, and I hope I can too! If this is impossible to work with, I'd like to know, because I'll have to get a new place!!

What do you mean by "comes down to the top line"?

I've edited my last post and included a 3d sketch. You can see what I mean in there. Thanks for the help! Barry

I intend to soffit mount main monitors and have my nearfield ns-10's on the console

You often see studios with speakers sitting on the console, but it is actually not a good place to put them! You'll get comb filtering from the console surface, and it's hard to decouple the speakers from the console. Far better to put them on solid, massive stands just behind the console. In any event, your listening position is still practically right at the 50% position, which is the worst possible spot in the room. If you move your mains closer together, then you can bring it further forward, away form teh 50% spot and closer to the 38% spot. The other thing you could do is to increase the intersection angle of the speakers from 60 to as much as 90 degrees. That will also bring your listening position further forward.

I know, but I've read that people made it work, and I hope I can too!

Well, as the folks here often say "You have to live with what you've got". Just make the best you can of it, while recognizing the limitations that it will impose.

I've edited my last post and included a 3d sketch. You can see what I mean in there.

OK, now I get it: it's part of the building structure, and there is nothing you can do about it. My guess is that the angled ceiling there will need some heavy acoustic treatment, to avoid giving you strange reflections back to the mix position. - Stuart -