Studio build in a small, funny room - Help, please!

EDIT: My question is totally compliant with the "read this first after posting" post. Can someone please help me? Hi everyone, been following the forum for a while but it's my first post.. This forum kicks a**, by the way! I have a problem regarding a studio build in a weird (triangular, tall) room, I used the search feature and dind't find much so here it goes: I've been flirting with the idea of builiding a studio for some time, and know I might have the money to do it so, it seems this is it. I live in Lisbon, Portugal, in an apartment building. the building has four underground floors of parking space beneath it, and next to the parking spaces there are little "storage rooms" (don't know the english word). I am the proud owner of such a space :) and that's what I want to convert into a studio. Space Description ============= The room is tiny, and so whatever solution is to be used it must maintain wall width to a minimum, (or useful area to a maximum, if you will). The drawing I enclose has the dimensions. the ceiling is 4m tall. i am not that familiar with non-metric units, so i leave you guys to figure out the "foots and inches". sorry for the extra work, but i don't want to screw this up. I think you can think of 1m (100cm) as 3', roughly.. The biggest wall is next to earth (not electrical i really mean earth, like soil, it's an underground floor) and the ceiling is also under earth. the other two walls separate the room from the parking spaces, and it is located on sublevel -1, so it has another 3 floors beneath it. The floor is made of tile and there is a pipe of somesort (vent?) about 25cm in diameter and it goes parallel to the small wall with no door and its like 20cm from the ceiling ad 20cm from the said wall. this leads to somewhere and if it's somebody's house i'm afraid they'll hear everything just about as if they were in the room.. the walls are brick and cement, and the floors and ceiling are reinforced concrete. Also the door opens inwards. Goals ===== The purpose of the studio is 80% of the time as a rehearsal room for my band (drums, guitars, bass and some electronics). The other 20% of the time it will be used for recording purposes. My goals are: - to have enough "sound proofing" that it won't annoy any neighbours, (but if people in the garage can still hear something it's OK.) Likewise it would be nice if during a recording session a car happens to drive by, it wouldn't ruin a take, but it's not mandatory. (i guess it won't have that many traffic :) ) for reference, on an iphone decibel meter app, we hit an averge 100dBs on the loudest parts of our rehearsals. - as far as the acoustics on the inside: i need the room to be a bit dead. the thing is, the room being small, during a rehearsal it is important to have some absortion so that the instruments can be distinguished (specially, the drums sound should "die fast"). When recording (separate instruments, one track at a time) I can bring back the some reflection by hanging some mdf or drywall or whatever hard surface to make the room "more live" My main concerns are space and money, of course. Questions ========= Having said all that, my questions are: Sound isolation - do the walls that are in contact with earth need as much isolation as the others? - I know the proportions for rectangular rooms. But in a triangular room, how high should my ceiling be? - Is there any interest in building a ceiling that is not flat? - what's the best solution, given what i explained before (best "bang-for-my-buck", most useful area, etc.)? Acoustic environment in the already isolated room - after isolation, where should I put bass traps, broadband absorbers, diffusers, etc, if any? - I currently rehearse in another small room, and we have built a small drumshield out of plywood and some foam, and it improved a lot for us (the drummer still has a hard time hearing us, but we put some speakers next to him). when we start playing in this room will we still need this? is it better to build one out of absorbers? - am i right in my assumption that i should have a dead room? - am i right in my assumption that i can "liven it up" by placing hard, reflective surfaces against the walls? Other stuff - how much would all this cost me, if i were to build it myself with the help of my bandmates? - how long would it take to build it (it would be an evenings-and-weekends thing)? I will apreciate all feedback you guys can give me, I have very little knowledge of these matters, just read a few books and your forum. I apologize for the length of all this, but I tried to be as thorough and synthetic as I could. i apologize also for any english mistake or lack of sense anywhere. Thank you very much, you guys rule! Cheers

Hey there... It's nice to see another noob on here! Sadly, there's not a lot of information that I can give you, as there is so much that I don't understand as well. The only thing that I can suggest is just to be patient and keep digging through this forum... There is a ton of great information here. And don't start building until you have a solid plan! I almost did that and I'm really glad I found this place first... There were so many things that I had no idea about! Regarding metrics, that seems to be a pretty common form of measurement here, so I doubt anyone will be bothered by it. As I'm a typical, old-school American who fears change and can't understand metrics, I generally use this site http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm to get my conversions when reading about other people's builds. I can tell you now that the first thing you'll probably hear about is the difficulty you'll have given the small size/shape of your room (I'm in a similar situation myself). While I would imagine you can probably get the isolation to an acceptable level for a rehearsal space, getting a good sound for quality recording may be quite another issue. I still know next to nothing about accoustics, but I'm betting one of the experts on here will be able to at least point you in the best direction.

Thanks for the kind reply, 5forfighting! I agree with you entirely, I also think isolation will not be so much of a challenge when compared to getting a good "acoustical environment", given the room. My only fear regarding isolation is how much width it will have, and therefore how much space it will steal, in this almost microscopical space :). I am more than willing to compromise to a "won't bother the neighbours but can still be heard in the rest of the garage" scenario as far as isolation, and a "if you patiently set up an instrument and panels,traps etc you can record decent tracks" as far as acoustics inside. But I'm such a noob, this forum will be my savior! I've been reading a lot and researching a lot online too, and this forum is a goldmine! I am hoping all the gurus over here will help me achieve the space of my dreams... I've been a musician since my early teens and I always wanted a space like this..Now I'm so near sometimes I really can't believe it. At the same time, being able to rehearse/record with my band whenever we want will be awesome! I feel we can really become something, with a place where we can hear eachother without agression and just enjoy playing and writing music. I this thread will keep going way until when I am posting pics of the place with drywall and cables and stuff.. I see the other build threads and get a weird kick about. Not unlike porn :). Studio porn, maybe? Eager for all your wisdom you guys! Cheers

Not sure if I can help much, but here are some "non-expert" comments that might point you in the right direction for further research:

The biggest wall is next to earth (not electrical i really mean earth, like soil, it's an underground floor) and the ceiling is also under earth.

I understand that you mean the room is actually underground? That there is nothing on the other side of that long wall, except many meters of dirt? And how far underground is the roof? I'm guessing that it is also a couple of meters of dirt on top of that roof, and nothing else? If so, then you won't need to isolate those walls at all, I think. Concrete damped by dirt is a great isolator! So you will only need to worry about isolation for the other two walls.

the walls are brick and cement, and the floors and ceiling are reinforced concrete.

How thick? The concrete is probably pretty thick, I'd guess, since it is obviously a large building, but how thick are those bricks? Are they rendered (plastered) on one side= Both sides? Painted? How good is the brickwork? I mean, is the mortar in the joints neat, consistent, even, etc, or is it poorly done with gaps, holes, "bubbles"?

The other 20% of the time it will be used for recording purposes.

When you say "recording purposes", do you mean tracking only, or also mixing? In other words, will you need to use it as a control room for critical listening / mixing?

for reference, on an iphone decibel meter app, we hit an averge 100dBs on the loudest parts of our rehearsals.

Either you have a very quiet drummer, or the iphone SPL meter isn't very accurate! I normally get around 110 dB just from the drums alone, played normally, and up to 115 or more played loud. Can you get a more accurate meter and measure again? Also, measure both inside the room and outside the room with the door closed, with everyone playing as loudly as they can. That will tell you how much isolation you already have, and how much more you need to get. Also measure the average inside and outside levels when nobody is playing: just ambient noise.

When recording (separate instruments, one track at a time) I can bring back the some reflection by hanging some mdf or drywall or whatever hard surface to make the room "more live"

You can probably do that by building some gobo's on wheels, or even hinged to the walls.

- I know the proportions for rectangular rooms. But in a triangular room, how high should my ceiling be?

More volume is generally better, within reason. 4m is a pretty good height! You have plenty of room for treatment up there.

- Is there any interest in building a ceiling that is not flat?

Yes. No. :) Seriously, it depends on what you want and what you have. Since you want a dead space, and you have "meters of earth above concrete" for your roof, I'd say that you probably don't even need a ceiling, and can just that space for treatment. Keep the floor as concrete, or maybe lay laminate floor, but don't carpet it. You can always use rugs if you need to deaden the floor a bit.

- am i right in my assumption that i should have a dead room?

I would not want my room totally dead: it sounds awful, and is fatiguing to the ears. If you want to track in there, then I think I'd try to keep it a little bit live. Maybe treat the drum area heavily, but less treatment for the rest.

- how much would all this cost me, if i were to build it myself with the help of my bandmates? - how long would it take to build it (it would be an evenings-and-weekends thing)?

Those are the tough questions that nobody can answer for you! You could spend many tens of thousands of dollars and years to get it right, if you really want to, or you could do it in months for just a couple of thousand. Are you going to buy read-made acoustic treatment from a manufacturer, or are you going to build it yourself? How perfect do you need to get it? etc. etc. I'd suggest that you first isolate those two walls, build some decent size bass traps in the corners, do some kind of large thick cloud on the ceiling, a bit of absorption on the walls, and then test the room to see how it sounds and figure out what to do next. But do consider that that's just what I would do, if it were my room! I'm no expert on treatment, and maybe others can give you better advice. Hope that helps! - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, thanks for your advice. Unfortunately I think the big wall and the ceiling, despite being under meters of dirt, will still have to be isolated, though not as heavily. I say this because the other walls are mechanically coupled with this wall and the ceiling, therefore they will "conduct sound". So, I believe a room within room design should be in order, but I am hoping to get the insight of the gurus out there:D Also, as far as isolation, I am really worried with the tube/duct that is near the ceiling. If it leads to someone's house they will hear every little whisper that happens in the room. Trying to answer your questions:

I understand that you mean the room is actually underground? That there is nothing on the other side of that long wall, except many meters of dirt? And how far underground is the roof? I'm guessing that it is also a couple of meters of dirt on top of that roof, and nothing else?

- yup, you got everything right

How thick? The concrete is probably pretty thick, I'd guess, since it is obviously a large building, but how thick are those bricks? Are they rendered (plastered) on one side= Both sides? Painted? How good is the brickwork? I mean, is the mortar in the joints neat, consistent, even, etc, or is it poorly done with gaps, holes, "bubbles"?

- The brick walls are about 15-20cm or 6"-8" I would say. They are rendered and painted on both sides. I have no clue about how good is the brickwork and the rest..

When you say "recording purposes", do you mean tracking only, or also mixing? In other words, will you need to use it as a control room for critical listening / mixing?

- At first I flirted with the idea, that since I have so much heigh, I could build a CR in an above floor. But it's impratical I think. If anyone thinks otherwise, please speak up! All I'm considering now is tracking. Mixing I'll do in my bedroom or living room or some place else.

Either you have a very quiet drummer, or the iphone SPL meter isn't very accurate!

- i personally think the iphone app sucks! :) i estimate us hitting 110dB, my drummer is not Animal from the muppets, but he is also not gentle. I would say he's average. *About the whole live/dead room thing I know for tracking a dead room sucks. However, for rehearsing purposes it's actually kinda nice (through my experience). The drums don't overtake the whole thing. And since it's easier to "liven it up" with reflecting gobos and stuff, when the time comes to track in the room, that's what I'd do. Do you guys think this a good idea or what?

Those are the tough questions that nobody can answer for you! You could spend many tens of thousands of dollars and years to get it right, if you really want to, or you could do it in months for just a couple of thousand. Are you going to buy read-made acoustic treatment from a manufacturer, or are you going to build it yourself? How perfect do you need to get it? etc. etc.

I would like to something like a double leaf design, maybe the inner walls being inside out ones.. I really don't know. I'm not sure if I am going to build it myself, I think I would like the experience but I'm a total noob at construction. Help needed!!!

I'd suggest that you first isolate those two walls, build some decent size bass traps in the corners, do some kind of large thick cloud on the ceiling, a bit of absorption on the walls, and then test the room to see how it sounds and figure out what to do next.

I like this approach stuart, for several reasons: 1. all of the built components can still be used if I choose to further isolate the room 2. it wouldn't be an all-or-nothing thing, allowing me to experiment, and evaluate the room so the speak 3. it would allow for the so need learning curve for drywall construction 4. it would be relatively fast I just am very hesitant about the tube/duct in the ceiling..I think I just have to do something about the little bugger! Also, as I've said, I fear isolating only the two small walls won't do much. Furthermore, building another wall 4m tall is kinda tough! This is my 3rd post and they have always been long. I wrote the most important stuff in bold so you can skim through it more easily..I need all the help I can, can't afford people falling asleep on me :) Work has been hard, as soon as I can I'll post a sketchup of the room. Until then, everbody please write down your two cents, they're much needed!