I'm currently planning out a basement finishing project with a contractor. One corner of the basement (unfortunately the one which wil require a closet for access to the water meter and water softener tank) will be used to house my drums and guitars. The basement has 9 ft ceilings with poured concrete walls. The main purpose of the project is to make a safe play area for my 3 kids, but I would also like to create a sound dampened area so I can play the drums withouth waking up the kids and pissing off my wife! The name is bang for my buck. As of now, the room will be framed with 2x4s and covered with 1/2 sheetrock. The ceiling has 10" joists and sits below our kitchen which has oak plank floors. While I would love to stagger studs, do 2 layers of 5/5" sheetrock, that's just not in the cards. The contractor I am working with has suggested R13 in the walls, R19 in the ceiling , a layer of 2" rigid foam, then sheetrock. My question is, will I get materially better sound dampening results by replacing the 2" rigid foam boards with something like the Audimute 2 mm rubber soundproofing insulation or similar vinyl product? Once again,I have no illusions of having a soundproof space...I just want to be able to make some noise without waking up the house. Thanks!
2" rigid foam vs. audimute or similar rubber panels
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11584.
Isn't it always?The name is bang for my buck.
Unfortunately then neither is you playing the drums without waking the wife and the kids.While I would love to stagger studs, do 2 layers of 5/5" sheetrock, that's just not in the cards.
Nope - what he suggests is basically useless.The contractor I am working with has suggested R13 in the walls, R19 in the ceiling , a layer of 2" rigid foam, then sheetrock.
Nope- that won't get the job done either. In order to create even marginal isolation you need mass - air - mass - (MAM) and isolated structure...... Unfortunately I think you already know what you need - but seem to somehow wish that the laws of physics will suddenly be different in your house than they are in the remainder of the entire universe. Seriously - I am not trying to be an arse here - but you ask the impossible - especially dealing with something like playing the drums...... lots of low frequency with the toms and bass - which is the hardest to isolate in the best of all possible worlds........My question is, will I get materially better sound dampening results by replacing the 2" rigid foam boards with something like the Audimute 2 mm rubber soundproofing insulation or similar vinyl product?
Well - from my perspective I suppose it all depends on whether your wife and kids sleep real REAL deep. My recommendation to you (and I am being very serious here) would be to buy a set of electronic drums - . You can buy a good kit for less than what you are proposing to do with your room - and at least then you can play with headphones on to your hearts content and never wake anyone up. If you go the way you are heading now - you will spend a lot of money - not achieve what you are trying to do - still not be able to play when the rest of the house is sleeping - and have a several thousand dollar headache drive you nuts. Unfortunately - once you head down the wrong path - and have created a whole series of flanking paths for the sound to travel - you can't just fix that by adding green glue and more mass.......... from the point you are going to be at you will have to begin by tearing apart work that you just paid good money for - and you will NOT be a real happy camper. However - I suppose you could also try this approach - seeing as your contractor thinks he's knows which side is up - tell him to proceed however he thinks os best - as long as he will guarantee the results - then make sure you test the room before he gets paid for the work.... AT least that way you can almost break even, if you (personally) tear out his stuff for the next guy to try to fix.......... RodOnce again,I have no illusions of having a soundproof space...I just want to be able to make some noise without waking up the house. Thanks!
I appreciate the time you took to write your reponse, but it doen't really help. In the end, this room is going to get built no matter what as part of the overall basement plans. We could just as easily put the treadmill in there. And while my wife has also asked me about drum triggers, i only get to play once or twice a week as it is and fully appreciate the sound of the maple kit that I spent my younger years saving for and putting together. Where you probably consider the construction of the room only worthwhile if done a specific way, I think the same way about playing my drums. Playing an electronic set would be like playing a completely different instrument to me. The fact that it is another floor lower is at least one step better than where I play now which is in an enclosed sun room (meaning 3 walls of windows) with a 10ft ceiling below the bedrooms! I've lived some apartments in NYC where I couldn't tap my sticks together without a neighbor hearing it and I've lived in other (prewar) buildings where my neighbors claimed they could hardly hear the drums. There had to be some factor contributing to the lack of sound transmission that has less to do with decoupled walls, acoustic caulk, and mass-loaded vinyl than it does solid construction techniques. Again, what I am trying to do here is make some improvement on the standard construction that will begin to provide some sound insulation from my kids sleeping 20' above me with carpeting, sub-floor, insulation,sheetrock, 10' of air, hardwood, subfloor,and more sheetrock in between. Surely, some insulation is better than none. My intention was not to argue against what I know is ideal, but more to potentially solicit some additional ideas that I have not thought of already. So instead of criticizing me or my contractor, how about giving me some constructive and actionable advice while respecting my given circumstances and constraints? Do you really believe that no insulation is better than 6-8" of fiberglass? Once again, I am aware that the lower frequencies will always be tough to stop due more to a person's ability to feel these frequencies more than hear them as they travel though a solid surface. I guess my main question is is there any material that can be added to this construction that will improve rock/insulation/rock, that is at all worthwhile?
I could be wrong here but I believe drywall is alot cheaper than 2" rigid foam.
My cost is $17 for a 2x8x2" sheet of rigid foam
And two layers of 1/2" rock is better than one. Build a room within your room so your ceiling is decoupled. You have enough head room for that. And with the money you save on the rigid foam you can build a second wall for the inside walls.
Peace
Tom
I wish that were true, but it simply isn't: Like rod said, you can't beat the laws of physics.There had to be some factor contributing to the lack of sound transmission that has less to do with decoupled walls, acoustic caulk, and mass-loaded vinyl than it does solid construction techniques.
Insulation does not stop sound. Isolation stops sound. Urban legend has it that sticking egg crates and packing foam on your walls will stop the sound going through, but that isn't true either. All it will achieve is to make your room sound bad. The sound will still go through, just like it always did. It is a common misunderstanding that insulation stops sound. It does not. It can help when it is part of a system, but by itself it does not work. You cannot stop sound with insulation (unless you want to install mineral wool two dozen feet thick on your walls and ceiling!!). You can only stop sound with isolation. Isolation means two things: Mass and decoupling.Again, what I am trying to do here is make some improvement on the standard construction that will begin to provide some sound insulation from my kids sleeping 20' above me with carpeting, sub-floor, insulation,sheetrock, 10' of air, hardwood, subfloor,and more sheetrock in between. Surely, some insulation is better than none.
Well, if you REALLY want to spend lots of money for just a little bit of return, then you could beef up the underside of your ceiling with a couple of layers of sheetrock, put resilient channel (not hat channel) across your studs and joists, put lots of rock wool between your studs and joists, and then screw a couple of layers of sheetrock to the resilient channel, with Green Glue between the layers of sheetrock, and staggered joints. Seal everything with lots of caulk. It will cost you several hundred dollars in materials, plus your contractor's labor, and the cost of the structural engineer to check if your floor can take the weight, and it will gain you a few dB of isolation, but probably nowhere near enough that your kids can carry on sleeping while you play the drums.but more to potentially solicit some additional ideas that I have not thought of already. So instead of criticizing me or my contractor, how about giving me some constructive and actionable advice while respecting my given circumstances and constraints?
"6-8" of fiberglass" will attenuate some of the highs a bit, but will have very little effect on the lows. Once again, you can't stop sound with insulation. If you do not believe me, nail a six inch thickness of fiberglass across the doorway to the room where you play drums now, and stand outside while somebody else hammers away, full bore. Can you hear the drums still? Yes you can. Just a bit softer than inside the room, but still very loudly. And the kick and floor tom will be hardly affected at all. Did the insulation stop the sound? No. Insulation does not stop sound. Isolation does. Isolation implies mass and decoupling.Do you really believe that no insulation is better than 6-8" of fiberglass?
Right awareness, wrong reason!!! :) the reason why lower frequencies are harder to stop is because they have very long wavelengths, not because you can feel them. Long wavelengths require greater mass.I am aware that the lower frequencies will always be tough to stop due more to a person's ability to feel these frequencies more than hear them as they travel though a solid surface.
Rod already gave you the answer to that: simple answer? No, there is nothing you can add, except oodles of mass, such as a 10 inch concrete slab. There is no such thing as a "magic material" that you can apply to your room to isolate it for drums. There IS an entire treatment that you can apply, which rod outlined, but despite the wonderful claims of manufacturers, there simply isn't any magic stuff that you can nail to the roof. You cannot bypass the laws of physics.I guess my main question is is there any material that can be added to this construction that will improve rock/insulation/rock, that is at all worthwhile?
Don't waste your money on things like mass loaded vinyl and rubber matting. You need mass, and these will give you mass, but sheetrock is much cheaper for the same amount of mass! Sound doesn't care much if you spennt hundreds of dollars to put the mass there, or thousands. Mass is mass, and you can get it cheaper from sheetock than any other common building material. You also need decoupling, and none of these will give you that. Resilient channel will give you decoupling, but not enough on its own to make a huge difference. Decoupling, plus mass, plus insulation will make a bigger difference. But in order to isolate a drum kit well, you need much more mass, and much more decoupling than you are willing to do. Like Rod said: you can spend a lot of money here, but unless you do it completely right (which you said you don't want to do) then your results will be mediocre at best. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not understand the issue. And if you DO decide to do it properly, then your very best first step is to buy Rod's book. In it, he shows how to do it properly. Anything less than that just will not get the results you are hoping for. - Stuart -will I get materially better sound dampening results by replacing the 2" rigid foam boards with something like the Audimute 2 mm rubber soundproofing insulation or similar vinyl product?
It's all inthe delivery....Thanks! That makes sense. I understand now that mass loaded vinyl and rigid foam is not going to yield any improvement. It's very hard to start from 0 and see tons of websites, testimonials, and even video describing how great some of these products are. I will discuss doubling up on 5/8 or even 1/2" sheetrock and resilient channel on the ceiling and perhaps the internal walls. The floor joists above are all 10" Silent Floor TGI. So I will check with the manufacturer to determine the maximum load without deflection. My contractor is a good guy and seems to be genuinely interested in learning about what works and what doesn't work so that he knows going forward for other projects. He has agreed to allow me and whoever else I can get to help to work with him on that room to improve the results without increasing my labor costs.
In the end, the reason for finishing the basement is so that the kids have a safe contained place to play....away from the adults. If budget constraints mean that I don't get a "real" practice room, then so be it.
Hai Rob,
I'm not gonna spend too much words here since Rod and Stuart gave you the full length already.
Isolating drums is gonna be tough, there's no miracle solution for that. Just laws of physics.
Now, you already came to the right place (this forum!) which, in my opinion, is THE one and only resource on building soundproofrooms. True! There's lots of expertise here, including Rod who might was well be the godfather of studiobuilding ;) So pay attention when he speaks.... amen.
I can only say; read this forum as much as you can and even invite your contractor if he really wants to learn. No arrogance, just the plain truth.
Oh, and we're just a happy bunch here on the forum willing to help you and others. No strings, just beer haha.
Good look with your journey here!
Happily yours, Roman.
As a drummer I can appreaciate thatI appreciate the time you took to write your reponse, but it doen't really help. In the end, this room is going to get built no matter what as part of the overall basement plans. We could just as easily put the treadmill in there. And while my wife has also asked me about drum triggers, i only get to play once or twice a week as it is and fully appreciate the sound of the maple kit that I spent my younger years saving for and putting together. Where you probably consider the construction of the room only worthwhile if done a specific way, I think the same way about playing my drums. Playing an electronic set would be like playing a completely different instrument to me.
That actually might or might not be true. You would be amazed at some of the conditions I've seen where sound travels through structure (due to flanking) with clarity you wouldn't believe for great distances - and yet you could barely hear it in the next room. Your truley best bet to begin would be to go into each of the bedrooms in question - and take some sound readings to determine what levels you need to deal with first.The fact that it is another floor lower is at least one step better than where I play now which is in an enclosed sun room (meaning 3 walls of windows) with a 10ft ceiling below the bedrooms!
Nope - it is the combination of all of those that determine what transmits and what doesn't - so (as is generally true with pre-war buildings in the city) take tons of mass and you're well on our way......I've lived some apartments in NYC where I couldn't tap my sticks together without a neighbor hearing it and I've lived in other (prewar) buildings where my neighbors claimed they could hardly hear the drums. There had to be some factor contributing to the lack of sound transmission that has less to do with decoupled walls, acoustic caulk, and mass-loaded vinyl than it does solid construction techniques.
The difficulty here is that you begin by esablishing boundaries that pretty much guarantee you cannot acheive your goal...... Example......Again, what I am trying to do here is make some improvement on the standard construction that will begin to provide some sound insulation from my kids sleeping 20' above me with carpeting, sub-floor, insulation,sheetrock, 10' of air, hardwood, subfloor,and more sheetrock in between. Surely, some insulation is better than none. My intention was not to argue against what I know is ideal, but more to potentially solicit some additional ideas that I have not thought of already.
Here you have pretty much efectively tied my hands...... you eastablish your parameters for construction - all I can do is let you know it will not meet your goals. You then asked:As of now, the room will be framed with 2x4s and covered with 1/2 sheetrock. The ceiling has 10" joists and sits below our kitchen which has oak plank floors. While I would love to stagger studs, do 2 layers of 5/8" sheetrock, that's just not in the cards.
To which I gave a simple answer.My question is, will I get materially better sound dampening results by replacing the 2" rigid foam boards with something like the Audimute 2 mm rubber soundproofing insulation or similar vinyl product?
I was not aware that I had criticized either of you.So instead of criticizing me or my contractor, how about giving me some constructive and actionable advice while respecting my given circumstances and constraints?
No I don't - but I also know (for a fact) that 6 - 8" of fiberglass is not going to help you unless you take this to the level that it needs to go to. And that the level I speak of is above and beyond 1 layer of 1/2" drywall.Do you really believe that no insulation is better than 6-8" of fiberglass?
OK - for the ceiling resilient channel would help (about a 6dB boost over just 2 layers of drywall by itself)- but you really need (beyond that) at least 2 layers of drywall. If I were you - I would probably try to add some mass to the underside of the floor above - and then let the ceiling run past the walls I intended to frame - and at least in this manner it becomes only the ceiling that you are using to create your isolation. Sincerely I meant no disrespect to either you or your builder - but I find it difficult when someone comes in and says - "this is what I am going to do and it isn't negotiable - so how can I make it happen? regards, RodOnce again, I am aware that the lower frequencies will always be tough to stop due more to a person's ability to feel these frequencies more than hear them as they travel though a solid surface. I guess my main question is is there any material that can be added to this construction that will improve rock/insulation/rock, that is at all worthwhile?