First Post: Comments on my Design

Hello, I´m new to this forum, but I am a passiv reader since quiet a long time. I am building a studio in two rooms of my cellar. Mainly for mixing and only occasionally for tracking (Vocals, guitar etc.). I would be very pleased if you could give me some comments on my studio design (see sketchup-file). I have already startet building the controlroom and have build the studiowindow between the two rooms. Right now I would like to only discuss about my controlroom-design. My special requirements for the controlroom are: - I need to have some storrage-space for my equipment within the room, and I also want to use the room as my office (so I need space for my papers, the printer, fax...) - I want to have enought space in my controlroom, to sit there comfortably even with two or three clients and also while giving lessons to one or two pupils (I am a guitar-teacher) - Right now I only do stereo-mixing, but I want to make some experiments with surround-mixing too. So a basic Surround setup must be implemented. Unfortunately the room is not very big, so I developed some ideas on how I can make a good compromise between my special needs (much space) and the acoustic treatments in the way John Sayer suggests it. I decided not to make a room-in-room setup. Because I don´t need to have acoustic isolations to other rooms or to neighbors and also because it would have been impossible because of a much to low ceiling What I came up with was basically these things: - I put bookshelfes in front of the isolation (bass-traps), insteed of a fixed wall or cloth. All of these shelfs will have no backside. And on the frontside there will be doors made of a wooden frame covered with cloth. Maybe also a layer of acoustic foam inside the frame, to make the absorption even more effective (is that right thinking or wrong?). So the sound can travel right through the shelfes to the bass-traps. Some shelfes (the ones with the speakers in it) will have wooden fronts. If possible I want these also to be able to open like a door. - I want to soffit mount my speakers because otherwise it will be difficult to place them in a big enought distance to the walls. - I want to set my desk on wheels. So I can roll it to the front if I need more space. - I will not soffit mount the rear speakers. Instead I will put them on monitor-stands, so I can remove them if I don´t need them. So the rear speakers will not eat up any room-space. My problems and questions: - Low ceiling (only 2,10 Meter)! I am very tall, so there is almost no space left above my head to treat the (concret-) ceiling. What would you suggest? On the floor I put carpet instead of wood to compensate it a little. But I guess that will not help much. Would it be enought to make a "cloud" only in the space between the speakers and the "tube" (the white tube at the ceiling - see the sketchupfile). - I can not make big bass-traps at the rear wall in the controlroom, because I have the door and the studiowindow there. But the sofa in the back is quite a good basstrap (as I can tell from my old studio-room). Any suggestions what I could do furthermore with my rear wall? - I have already build the the slot-resonators in the controlroom (but I didn´t attach the slats yet). I filled it completely with isolation. Is this a problem? Because in Johns design the space is often only filled half with isolation. - The cupboard left and right to the center-speaker: What would you suggest: cloth-front (absorbing) or wooden-front (reflecting) Any help or comments are welcome! Best regards, Lars P.s.: Sorry for my bad english!

Hi Lars, and welcome. There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post. Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will not reply if you do not do what is written in the post. Many others who are very helpful, will not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes. However, I have a couple of comments:

- I put bookshelfes in front of the isolation (bass-traps),

Bookshelves are not bass traps. At best, they might be diffusors. Sort of. But not bass traps. I don't see those bookshelves in your SketchUp model, either.

(is that right thinking or wrong?).

Thinking wrong! :)

Some shelfes (the ones with the speakers in it) will have wooden fronts. If possible I want these also to be able to open like a door. - I want to soffit mount my speakers because otherwise it will be difficult to place them in a big enought distance to the walls.

I guess I don't understand. Do you want to soffit-mount the speakers, or do you want to put them inside the doors of bookshelves? You can't do both. Two different things.

- I want to set my desk on wheels. So I can roll it to the front if I need more space.

Good idea. But think of how you are going to handle cables.... There will be lots of cables going to your desk. How are you going to deal with that if it is on wheels? It is possible, of course, but think it through...

I will not soffit mount the rear speakers. Instead I will put them on monitor-stands, so I can remove them if I don´t need them. So the rear speakers will not eat up any room-space.

Good idea. Except that you show them in the wrong place on your SketchUp model.

- Low ceiling (only 2,10 Meter)! I am very tall, so there is almost no space left above my head to treat the (concret-) ceiling. What would you suggest? On the floor I put carpet instead of wood to compensate it a little. But I guess that will not help much. Would it be enought to make a "cloud" only in the space between the speakers and the "tube" (the white tube at the ceiling - see the sketchupfile).

You are right: carpet probably won't help. The idea of a cloud only up to the tube will help a bit, but extending it more over your mix position would help even more.

- I can not make big bass-traps at the rear wall in the controlroom, because I have the door and the studiowindow there. But the sofa in the back is quite a good basstrap (as I can tell from my old studio-room). Any suggestions what I could do furthermore with my rear wall?

A room has 12 corners, not just two! Bass traps can go in any corner. You do have space across the top of the entire rear wall for a good one, plus the top of the two side walls, plus the corners behind your "bookkshelves", plus the corner across the top of your front wall... You have lots of space for bass trapping. Use it all. You will need plenty in that room. You could also build a "bass trap on wheels" that you can push in front of the door, and another one fixed in the opposite rear corner.

- The cupboard left and right to the center-speaker: What would you suggest: cloth-front (absorbing) or wooden-front (reflecting)

I would suggest not making it into a cupboard! That would make it into a large resonant cavity right next to your speakers, which is not a good idea. Other comments: 1) Why is the glass in the window to the live room angled like that? it reduces isolation a lot. 2) You have the speakers firing the wrong way into the room. Yo have them firing across the short axis of the room (3.4m), instead of along the long axis (4.07m). 3) Your head is 56% back from the front wall, practically in the center of the room. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart. Thank you very much for your detailed reply!

Bookshelves are not bass traps. At best, they might be diffusors. Sort of. But not bass traps. I don't see those bookshelves in your SketchUp model, either.

You got me wrong. The space behind the shelves is filled with isolation and that will be the basstraps. I hope the picture will make it more clear.

I guess I don't understand. Do you want to soffit-mount the speakers, or do you want to put them inside the doors of bookshelves? You can't do both. Two different things.

I hope the second picture will explane how I meant that.

Why is the glass in the window to the live room angled like that? it reduces isolation a lot.

I didnt put the glass in yet, so I could still change that. But I wanted to angle the glass because otherwise it will reflect the sound from the left speaker right to the listening-position (also in the first picture).

You have the speakers firing the wrong way into the room. Yo have them firing across the short axis of the room (3.4m), instead of along the long axis (4.07m).

I know that this is not perfekt (although quite many professional controlrooms are set up this way). I tried many different setups before, but this was the only way to get a symetrical shape. If I put the speakers on one of the short axis, one speaker will either be just in front of a window or in front of the door. Also I have this annoying tube at the ceiling, and I do not always want to watch my head when I walk through the room.

Your head is 56% back from the front wall, practically in the center of the room.

I tried to set my listening position not at 50%, not at 75% and not at 66% so I would have not so much trouble with the main roommodes. Any more comments? Regards Lars

Hi Stuart, I forgot one more Question to your post:

Quote:

I will not soffit mount the rear speakers. Instead I will put them on monitor-stands, so I can remove them if I don´t need them. So the rear speakers will not eat up any room-space.

Good idea. Except that you show them in the wrong place on your SketchUp model.

Sorry, I don´t see what you mean. Why "wrong place". What would be a better place. Lars

Sorry, I don´t see what you mean. Why "wrong place". What would be a better place.

All your speakers are supposed to be at the exact same distance from your head, but your rear surround speakers appear to bit further away than the front speakers, by a few inches. The rear surround speakers are supposed to be at an angle of 110 degrees. John recommends 115 to 120. Others have gotten good results experimenting at 125 degrees. More recently, some experts even say that 135 is better still. But your rear speakers are at an angle of 104 degrees. That is within the ITU recommendation, but only just (minimum 100 degree), but it is going the opposite way from what current consensus says works best. Fortunately, since your rear speakers are going to be mounted on stands it will be easy to position them correctly. You can probably mark the floor in some way, so that you can always get them back to the exact right place if you move them. Also, for 5.1 you need more absorption on the front wall: DEDE design seems to be the current best recommendation for 5.1 rooms, so you don't get reflections from your rear surrounds bouncing back at you from the front wall. But I think your biggest issue is the "bookcase" thing. I don't see how you can make that work. Soffit panels need to be large and heavy, and the speaker needs to be mounted in an airtight box on a solid decoupled base. I just don't see how you can do that effectively with a bookcase and hinged soffits. - Stuart -

Hi, thanks again for your comment. My plan is to build solid boxes for the monitors, and put a thick layer of silicone under it to glue the boxes an another solid panel (thereby decoupeling it). The space around the boxes I will fill with isolation. Then to me I don´t see too much difference if I put this construction into a solid shelf or into a solid framework. Also my thinking was: If the (solid) frontpanel needs to be decoupled from the Monitor anyway, why not make the frontpanel removeable. And then why not build it like a door. Maybe you are right and all of this will not work out the way I suppose (/hope) it will. I will think about all that for some more days and then either take the risk and just try it, or leave it. Thanks anyway for your very usefull comments. I appreciate it a lot that you took the time to help me. Any futher comments are still very welcome. Regards, Lars