Getting down to details..

Warning - lots of information forthcoming! ___________ Ok everyone! I lurked around here for a long time, then worked on a design for my space a while back - referenced in this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7057 There, you can see the layout of my space - and if you scroll down, you see the awesome design that John drew up for me. Now - here I am a long while later, after lots of other projects came up and postponed the studio... and I'm now getting into details, as I plan to get this project off the ground fairly soon. I have been reading and re-reading Rod's book and lurking here some more - and trying to compile questions (and finding the answers before blasting them on here!). I am currently working with a contractor who will likely do most of the framing/drywall/major construction - and I already made him buy Rod's book as well - so we're on the same page. So - first off.. referencing John's design - I was thinking of modifying it a bit - narrowing the rather large control room to make the drum/amp room a bit bigger (see sketchup drawing). Can anyone help with any issues I may run into by making the room narrower by a couple of feet? I would think that the space gained in the live room would help more than the space lost in the control room would hurt, but want to make sure. Next question(s) is about which walls are actual 'walls' (part of the 2-leaf wall) and which are strictly for acoustic treatment. In the drawing - at least one of the walls looks to be slatwall - is that just slats on the inside of an inside-out wall? or is the drywall on that outer wall, leaving a large airspace? Sorry if I missed that detail. In the case of the outer walls - where there is a 10' wall of concrete, I assume I only will want ONE additional leaf (with the concrete being the other) - is this correct? Or do I want concrete wall + 2-leaf wall? I do have the opportunity to completely isolate the ceiling from the floor above (I have pictures of the space if that would be helpful to anyone), and plan to add another layer of drywall to the subfloor above, then stuff insulation between the joists leaving some air. Below that I should be able to have the studio ceiling completely supported by the new walls without losing much (if any) height. Inside ceiling height at peak should be over 9.5'. I have a bunch of other questions - mostly regarding HVAC and soffits, and I realize that this post got long very quickly - so I'll wait and make that another thread. Thanks in advance! -mb

Sorry guys - did I miss some expected detail in posting?

Sorry guys - did I miss some expected detail in posting?

It just seems to be a bit slow around here lately! If there's one thing I've learned about this forum, is that you need patience....

Can anyone help with any issues I may run into by making the room narrower by a couple of feet? I would think that the space gained in the live room would help more than the space lost in the control room would hurt, but want to make sure.

Well, you can adjust your dimensions any way you want! But you do have to keep in mind two things (at least). 1) Room ratios. Make sure that your new dimensions give you a good ratio 2) Room size. The smaller the control room is, the worse it gets acoustically. EBU recommends 30 m2 floor area for a "high-quality sound control room", and 40 m2 for a reference listening room!

Next question(s) is about which walls are actual 'walls' (part of the 2-leaf wall) and which are strictly for acoustic treatment. In the drawing - at least one of the walls looks to be slatwall - is that just slats on the inside of an inside-out wall? or is the drywall on that outer wall, leaving a large airspace? Sorry if I missed that detail.

To be honest, I don't see many two leaf walls in that design" I only counted a couple of them. I think what John gave you is a rough sketch, a basic design, that you need to work on yourself and make into proper two-leaf walls.

In the case of the outer walls - where there is a 10' wall of concrete, I assume I only will want ONE additional leaf (with the concrete being the other) - is this correct? Or do I want concrete wall + 2-leaf wall?

Yep! You want just ONE additional leaf. The concrete is already one leaf, so you only need another leaf. Ie, a set of studs with sheetrock on one side only.

I do have the opportunity to completely isolate the ceiling from the floor above (I have pictures of the space if that would be helpful to anyone),

Pictures are always useful!

and plan to add another layer of drywall to the subfloor above, then stuff insulation between the joists leaving some air. Below that I should be able to have the studio ceiling completely supported by the new walls without losing much (if any) height. Inside ceiling height at peak should be over 9.5'.

Yup! That's exactly what you want. Don't forget to caulk up all around the drywall that you add between the joints, and keep it in place with cleats around the edges. You want it well sealed, and not falling out at some point. You also want to check with a structural engineer to make sure you can do that. Can your joists handle the extra mass? I'd go for at least two layers of extra drywall up there: I don't think one would be enough.

- so I'll wait and make that another thread.

Try to keep all your own questions in one thread, or it gets hard to keep track after a while! Just add another post here, with your HVAC questions.

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to this.. ended up having to do a bunch of travel for work (and left the pictures in my camera at home!) Answers in-line, and pictures to be added... I'll add another post if this gets too long. Excuse the mess in the pictures - the space is being used for storage right now. "-)

Soundman2020 wrote:

Can anyone help with any issues I may run into by making the room narrower by a couple of feet? I would think that the space gained in the live room would help more than the space lost in the control room would hurt, but want to make sure.

Well, you can adjust your dimensions any way you want! But you do have to keep in mind two things (at least). 1) Room ratios. Make sure that your new dimensions give you a good ratio 2) Room size. The smaller the control room is, the worse it gets acoustically. EBU recommends 30 m2 floor area for a "high-quality sound control room", and 40 m2 for a reference listening room!

I'll check the measurements of the narrowed room (based on sketchup, at least) and see how much it affects the ratio. I narrowed the control room by about 1.5' (roughly .5m), so it is enough to make a difference - hopefully not too much. Worst case, I go with John's original design and live with a slightly smaller drum/amp room.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Next question(s) is about which walls are actual 'walls' (part of the 2-leaf wall) and which are strictly for acoustic treatment. In the drawing - at least one of the walls looks to be slatwall - is that just slats on the inside of an inside-out wall? or is the drywall on that outer wall, leaving a large airspace? Sorry if I missed that detail.

To be honest, I don't see many two leaf walls in that design" I only counted a couple of them. I think what John gave you is a rough sketch, a basic design, that you need to work on yourself and make into proper two-leaf walls.

I took the sketchup drawing and color-coded which walls I think SHOULD be a single leaf, and which ones should be a complete double-leaf. (see drawing) Red is a single leaf, blue is a complete double-leaf. The ones that show as red are either next to the concrete foundation/wall (see picture below) - or there is already an adjacent wall that will be made heavier.

Soundman2020 wrote:

In the case of the outer walls - where there is a 10' wall of concrete, I assume I only will want ONE additional leaf (with the concrete being the other) - is this correct? Or do I want concrete wall + 2-leaf wall?

Yep! You want just ONE additional leaf. The concrete is already one leaf, so you only need another leaf. Ie, a set of studs with sheetrock on one side only.

Thanks for the confirmation - the above image should confirm my assumptions.

Soundman2020 wrote:

I do have the opportunity to completely isolate the ceiling from the floor above (I have pictures of the space if that would be helpful to anyone),

Pictures are always useful!

and plan to add another layer of drywall to the subfloor above, then stuff insulation between the joists leaving some air. Below that I should be able to have the studio ceiling completely supported by the new walls without losing much (if any) height. Inside ceiling height at peak should be over 9.5'.

Yup! That's exactly what you want. Don't forget to caulk up all around the drywall that you add between the joints, and keep it in place with cleats around the edges. You want it well sealed, and not falling out at some point. You also want to check with a structural engineer to make sure you can do that. Can your joists handle the extra mass? I'd go for at least two layers of extra drywall up there: I don't think one would be enough.

Here is a picture or two of the ceiling joists.. They are designed to have at least one layer of drywall on the bottom side - so adding another layer up below the subfloor is already planned, finding out if two layers will be a problem (it should be fine). ..and a few pictures of the space

Soundman2020 wrote:

- so I'll wait and make that another thread.

Try to keep all your own questions in one thread, or it gets hard to keep track after a while! Just add another post here, with your HVAC questions.

HVAC questions in next post.

HVAC follow-up question: So, in reading Rod's book and trolling this forum.. I'm still a bit confused about HVAC. Assuming I build a nice, sealed-up, double-leaf wall - say 3-layers of drywall per side on separate frames - now I need to bring in HVAC. So, when I punch a hole in those 6 layers to bring in the duct work - doesn't that drastically reduce the effectiveness of the wall? Or do I somehow build a soffit for the ductwork that is ALSO 3-layers thick of drywall, and bring it well into the room? If so, do I need to do this twice (return and delivery)? I get that the ductwork itself can be hung from some type of resilient hangers so as not to couple the two leaves of the wall - I understand that much. Thanks again! Trying to make sure I cross every t and dot every i before I drive the first nail. "-)

One more HVAC question... since it was suggested that I keep it all in one thread. Adjacent to the 2 rooms I'm planning here - I have a mechanical room/storage area on one side (adjacent to the drum/live room) and a large closet/storage room (adjacent to the control room). Assuming I have plenty of capacity in my home HVAC system (I do), can I drop an extra duct into each of these rooms and use them as exchange chambers (as described on p132/133 of Rod's book)? I would be able to bring plenty of heat and AC (my house uses the same air handlers for both - forced-air gas heat) into these 2 rooms - would potentially have to account for fresh air. Sorry if I'm just adding questions to my own thread! "-)

Sorry if I'm just adding questions to my own thread!

Always a good idea! Sooner or later, somebody will probably see it, and if not you can always "bump" it! Your "red and blue" seems to be OK to me, but it would be better if you actually built the complete walls in SketchUp, just to make sure you have everything in place. Your HVAC exchange chamber idea sounds fine to my untrained ear, but I'm not really up to speed on HVAC. I hope someone who is up to speed can help you with that. - Stuart -

Thanks, Stuart!

it would be better if you actually built the complete walls in SketchUp

I seem to have some trouble getting sketchup to do what I want it to do (I clearly haven't spent as much time with it as others here).. My original sketches (see link at top of thread) used a plug-in that did studded walls.. maybe I should use John's drawing as a guide, and try to do a more construction-detailed sketchup drawing.

Yeah, I know what you mean about SketchUp! It's a blessing and a curse together! It took me weeks to tame the beast, and even then it still turns around and bites me every now and then! I wouldn't worry too much about the individual framing members: I made that mistake already. I'd suggest that, until you get your final positions for everything pretty much fixed, I'd just go with simple "boxes" to represent your walls. Be accurate, by all means, with the dimensions! Make sure that your "box" has the precise dimensions that your finished wall will have, but don't worry too much about the actual 2x4s or bricks or whatever until you are totally satisfied with the basic layout. Otherwise you'll get bogged down in carefully positioning timber, only to have to move it all 10 minutes later... Been there! Done that! So just try to get the overall dimensions and walls correct, including windows, doorways, etc., then later flesh it out with actual drywall sheets and framing members. - Stuart -

Politely bumping... "-)

weekly bump.

are there any unanswered questions?

I THINK I've got the construction questions pretty much answered (though, I'm sure there will be many as I start construction). But still pretty confused on the HVAC stuff... How on earth do I punch a hole through a sealed-up, double-leaf wall assembly without dropping the STC down to virtually zero? As for the exchange chamber concept.. I can get supply and return air into an exchange chamber, but what is used to actually push/pull the air in and out? Is it controlled by a thermostat/sensor inside the rooms?

Have you read Rod's book on that matter yet? Use flexduct in between layers (no coupling) Build a heavy box around the ducts and vents. I'm sure there's good examples here on the forum. (sorry for the crappy reply, I'm inna hurry)

I have read Rod's book (some sections a half-dozen times!), but I guess I need to go back and re-read the HVAC section to see if I can make more sense of it.

Maybe a view in my thread may help a little: look here and scroll a couple of lines down... Though I'm def a noob I think there are several good links concerning your questions about HVAC, silencers... To your questions "what is used": In Rod's book there's an example with an inline vent sucking the exhausted air into the exchange chamber. Due to the pressure difference (low pressure where you suck the air from(rec room or control room) and the high pressure created by the vent blowing more air into the exchange chamber) the circulation starts. In this example you don't need a thermostat/sensor. If you'd use two fans you'd need a sensor in order to "trim" both fans to work accordingly. Well...that is my understanding. But I'm not completely sure. Maybe this is at least a little helpful. Good luck. Carsten

Thanks, Carsten!! Looks like some good information in there.. I have some reading to do tonight! "-)

today i found this thread with another great post of mister gervais...i guess...i was wrong. look here sorry. carsten

Carsten - it looks like you weren't completely wrong, but just need to move the fan from the outflow to the inflow and you're in business. After reading that post from Rod - I think my HVAC solution just got easier. I still need to figure out how to do the ductwork (re-reading that chapter in Rod's book), and figure out WHERE in the rooms I want the ducts/soffits (and where to go through the walls). Does everyone have this moment of 'head spinning' when they're planning their builds?

Does everyone have this moment of 'head spinning' when they're planning their builds?

Only around three times per day!!!! :)

Thanks, Soundman - I feel a little better. Every time I THINK I've got a handle on some detail of the construction, I go back through Rods book and notice some detail that throws me for a loop. I need to take a deep breath and think this all through before I purchase a single nail.