Andy's bakery conversion

Hi all! First of all, my best wishes to everyone in this new year! I’ve been lurking here on and off for a while, and I must say I’ve learned a lot (hearing myself talk to the buddies), but has also raised lots of questions and I know there's a long way to go. Rod Gervais’ book is on the way, maybe to add more to the confusion??? I've been editing this text for some time, but feel that it is time to come out... :) The object: Building a studio for private use. First of all to do electronic music, sound design,... (ranging from subtle atmospheric guitar ambient to stomping techno). But I’d also like to have the space to jam with a band (five persons at the most, of course drums are in). A studio won’t be any good without a booth, so I’d like to include that in the design as well. The available space: Our house is an old bakery and has two parts: the living space and the work space, seperated by open air, about 6 metres between them. The back space has one neighbouring building, but that is a warehouse. Closest neighbours are the kids’ bedrooms at about 7 metres, 15 metres to the left, and 40 metres at the back. It is in the middle of the city, but at nighttime it is real quiet out here. Under the studio will be my wife’s workshop. That won’t bother me. I’ve set up my monitors in the naked room, and turning up the volume to what seems to me the max I’d like to get for electronic music is about 97 dB when playing music. I also put some pink noise through the speakers and got to about 90 dB. This was all done using C-wheighting ans ‘slow’ and measured from the assumed mixing position (about 2 metres from monitors). All propositions to measure more precise are welcome! The dimensions are 9m17 by 5m38 and 2m92 high. (see plan) The studio will be on the second floor of the building. The floor is made out of (semi hollow) brick with metal sheets between them (across the length) and is supported by metal beams (I-profile, 21 cm high, roomwide), one at the at the front of the building, two pairs in between (meaning two are next to each other, so about 3 metres between each set of beams). On top of the bricks is a concrete layer of about two centimetres, making it a total of 14 cm thick floor. There used to be a metal silo on this floor that could contain up to 8 tons of flour! An architect didn’t see a problem to build a studio on this floor... A few holes (for the (removed)oven ventilation and the flour supply) need to be filled with concrete (when it stops freezing over here). The outside walls are brick and are between 20 and 25 centimetres thick. The big window will be replaced quite soon, as well as the door. The left back corner has a chimney (no entrance on this level) and the right back corner lies 40 cm deeper than the rest of the back wall. The roof is made of joists (6x17,5 cm) with timber on top and finished with bitumen roofing (Sorry, couldn’t find appropriate translation, hope you understand. It’s the tar-like stuff on a roll you burn to the roof.) Distance floor-downside of joists is 2m92. The joists are not in optimal condition, but are cured and should definitely be good for some years. I’m planning on putting on a new roof in about a year or five (when I have new funds...). If the consensus is to put on a new roof NOW, then I suppose this studio project will be delayed by a few years. :cry: The climate over here is quite moderate, so I’m not really concerned about heat or cold. Also, I’m not planning on using the studio for commercial tasks where clients need to be inside for several hours. I suppose I could do with an electrical heater in winter (it’s “really” cold here now, just under freezing temperature) and opening the doors while having a break for fresh air (it rarely gets hotter than 30° C in Belgium). I guess a decent HVAC is definitely overkill. My budget for this project is up to 3000 Euros or slighty above. Doesn’t sound like a lot, I know... After reading around here, I’d say I’m still in the research phase, looking for some knowledgable hints I’d like to start with one room just so I can take off the headphones, get out of my bedroom corner and make some decent noise... I’m still not sure whether I should go for a big control room where I can also jam with a band (is this a good idea at all???) and a small recording booth, just big enough to put in a drum set... or a small CR and a big live room/booth. I’m sure some senior members can say something logical about this. My main activities are still electronic solo projects and the occasional jam. Everything will be based on a computer DAW with various outboard gear and lots of MIDI controllers, some hardware synths and a few guitar amps. My monitors are Event SP8’s. http://www.ciao.com/Event_Project_Studi ... __10045790 In general I was thinking of something between these two designs: viewtopic.php?t=6968 http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Sonar.htm Some first random questions/remarks: Sliding doors do seem expensive and not needed... I usually work at night and prefer working in dim light. I suppose it will be better to not have windows? Definitely cheaper. I also reckon that I won’t be recording drums and vocals that much, and plain simple talk back, maybe a camera will do for CR/booth communication. Will the ‘open’ walls in this link be good enough for the sound levels I’m trying to reach? http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... /Walls.htm Or do I need to ‘treat’ the brick walls as well? Can I start by stuffing the space between the roof joists with insulation, and what would be the most effective material for this? Finish this off with some kind of cloth? Putting on a ‘mass leaf’ seems unpractical as I will replace the entire roof in a few years time. Hence, the complete design will need to be ‘room inside a room’. I know, still a lot of reading for me to do (hope to get THE book tomorrow), but hope some knowledgeable guys can help me get on. Thanks for having a look! Cheers, Andy Included are some pics, Sketchup when my main machine gets back from the shop...

Hi Andy, and welcome! Some comments:

I’ve set up my monitors in the naked room, and turning up the volume to what seems to me the max I’d like to get for electronic music is about 97 dB when playing music. I also put some pink noise through the speakers and got to about 90 dB. This was all done using C-wheighting ans ‘slow’ and measured from the assumed mixing position (about 2 metres from monitors). All propositions to measure more precise are welcome!

That's how loud you are INSIDE, but how loud are you OUTSIDE, and how loud do you need to be? If you repeat that test at the same level inside, but then take the meter to a few places outside the room, how loud does it show out there? That will give you an idea of how much isolation you already have. Then repeat the test one more time, measuring on the outside while slowly bringing up the level inside until you get to the level that you want outside (ie, the point where it becomes "too loud" outside). That will tell you how much isolation you need to add. These are very rough ball-park tests, of course. But it will give you a basic idea of what you are trying to achieve. If you could repeat all of the above but with a spectrum analyzer, you0d get an even better idea of where you are and where you want to be. You also need to consider sound that is already OUTSIDE, and that you need to prevent from getting IN! Any loud noise sources around you? Roads, railway lines, airport, industry, disco, etc. How about rain / wind noise? All of that you need to consider too. Sound goes both ways through walls. You need to design the walls to block the loudest sound that you don't to hear, going either way through the wall.

There used to be a metal silo on this floor that could contain up to 8 tons of flour!

That's good news! At least it sounds like you have enough structural support to be able to do some serious isolation.

The roof is made of joists (6x17,5 cm) with timber on top and finished with bitumen roofing (Sorry, couldn’t find appropriate translation, hope you understand. It’s the tar-like stuff on a roll you burn to the roof.) Distance floor-downside of joists is 2m92. The joists are not in optimal condition,

That's not so good news. It does not sound like you have much "beef" up there, and maybe not enough structural integrity to add much mass. That might be an issue.

I suppose I could do with an electrical heater in winter (it’s “really” cold here now, just under freezing temperature)

I'm not so sure that this will be your problem! It might be the other way around... You are going to build a double-sealed air-tight shell around you, with lots of thick insulation all around. I rather think that you might have a problem with too MUCH heat, not too little! especially if you have several people and a bunch of lights and equipment in there. But regardless of heat / cold, you will probably still need ventilation, as in fresh air. Even though you have a fairly large space, you still need to replace the air inside with fresh air, for the same reason as above: you will be sitting inside a double-sealed airtight box. You can't be in there for too long before you start running out of breathable air. So you might need to re-think your HVAC situation. My guess is that you will need some form of cooling, perhaps heating too, so maybe a mini-split that both heats and cools might be an option. But you still need fresh air, which means both inlet and exhaust ducts, with silencers, fans, etc.

I suppose it will be better to not have windows? Definitely cheaper. I also reckon that I won’t be recording drums and vocals that much, and plain simple talk back, maybe a camera will do for CR/booth communication.

If you can live without windows, then it certainly will make construction simpler and cheaper, and make it easier to achieve good isolation. IMHO, on a limited budget, eliminating doors and windows is a good place to save money, if you think you can do without them.

Will the ‘open’ walls in this link be good enough for the sound levels I’m trying to reach?

what sound levels are you trying to reach? :) you only told us how loud you plan to be inside, not how quite you need to be outside, or how loud things are outside that you don't want to hear inside... See above...

Can I start by stuffing the space between the roof joists with insulation, and what would be the most effective material for this? Finish this off with some kind of cloth? Putting on a ‘mass leaf’ seems unpractical as I will replace the entire roof in a few years time. Hence, the complete design will need to be ‘room inside a room’.

Once again, without seeing your numbers, it's hard to say, but I suspect that will need to do more than just put insulation up there. If you need good isolation, then you need the mass. You can't sneak past the laws of physics, unfortunately. - Stuart -

Hey Stuart, Thanks for your comments! Well, when I was at 97dB, I went outside and measured about 82dB. Keep in mind that there currently is no door, and as you can see in the first picture, the (very old) window can't be shut entirely and misses some glass panes. Panes are the plain old 4mm type. These issues will be taken care off in the near future. The entirely new window will have about the same partitions as in the picture, however, to reduce cost and sealing qualities, it will be an all closed concept. I was planning to use what is in use here generally: 'super insulated' (regarding heath) which is 4mm glass-12mm sealed compartment -4mm glass. It's no problem to change one 'leaf' to 5mm as suggested for normal studio windows on this site. Don't know if it's easy to get these with the glass angeled it it need be. I guess it's rather pointless to do anymore tests at the moment until the window and door are ready. Regarding outside noise... It's really ok as far as traffic is concerned: no trains, heavy trucks, fast cars, planes... only these bloody police helicopters hoover around the area from time to time, but that's an exception. Other than that, there are the neighbours kids that are in the garden sometimes, and the church bells saturday at 17pm, sunday at 10pm and on special occasions. Rather nice bells, I'd say. Gotta go and record them some time. :) I'll try and measure these next weekend, but as said before, rather pointless without the window and door. I'd say a level of 60dB (conversation level) inside the building/outside the CR/booth will suffice. If less can be achieved, all the better. Tomorrow, a relative who's into carpenting is coming to have a look at the joists in the roof to check their condition, and whether I can add 'mass' to these. However, this raises another question... I have just insulated the ceilings in the house, and from what I've learned, it is NOT done to insulate flat roofs on the inside with rockwool or the like. Normal procedure would be insulating on the outside using PUR plates, OR as we have done, using an ecologic product that has very good humidity regulation specs. It is also used in theatres for absorption. Will this product be any good. I estimate it will cost about 750 Euros for the 50 square metres. But this means the roof can never be changed again without destroying the insulating characteristics. http://www.isolation3000.com/index_en.php Will have another look at ventilation, maybe in Rod's book that arrived today! :lol: I hope it's as good as this forum suggests... thanks again! Andy

Hey guys, Haven't been able to do a lot this week, but still some updates to keep the project going... The joists and timber in the roof have been put to the test and they're ok. Still a lot to read and find out, but this is what my senses tell me: Fill the space between the joists with MDF board or similar to add mass to the timber, and caulk around the edges. Then fill the gaps further with rockwool or similar. Is this the way to go? Btw, joists are cemented into the wall. Got my own computer back and have improved my SketchUp skills a bit. This is just the bare bone building, but will add a first go at a CR. I'm thinking about the 3rd Sepmeyer ratio from Rod's book. If I take a ceiling height of 2m50, this gives me a room of 5m825x3m73. This might be a bit too big to fit a comfortable boot, so I'm also thinking about the 1st Louden ratio, which gives 4m75x3m50. That ratio does however seems a bit small if I want to jam with a band in this room. Will chalk it up next week after I get back from a short holiday with the misses (will put the book in my bag :wink: ). In the .skp file, I've drawn up to where the joists begin (2m92). The walls are therefor a bit heigher. That's it for now. Cheers

Fill the space between the joists with MDF board or similar to add mass to the timber, and caulk around the edges. Then fill the gaps further with rockwool or similar. Is this the way to go?

Sheetrock is probably cheaper than MDF, kg for kg, and easier to work with. But the basic idea is right. Two or three layers of 5/8 sheetrock should do the trick. Use cleats to hold it in place firmly, seal with abundant caulk. Many inches thick rock wool or fibreglass underneath that. How big are those joists? Can they safely take a few hundred kilograms of extra weight? Do you have as structural engineer who can give solid advice on that? You don't want your roof coming down on your head from overloading! - Stuart -

Thanks Stu! Just a real quick one, gotta go on holidays in 3 minutes. Joists are 6 x 17 cm and 40 cm apart. Architect and engineer (dad) say its OK. Cheers and thanks...