Studio Build Plan for a Garage + Attached Room

Hey guys, My second post here so im sure no one here knows me yet but i hope in the process of dreaming and building my new studio i get to know a lot more of you and hope you get to know me a lil as well. Ive tried being as observant as i could in the period ive been here and have read up on the great advice all of you guys have been giving to evryone and i think it is commendable that all of you can actually find the time from your family and work to come online regularl and read and advice and sort out problems for ppl whom youve never met so thank you all of you for all the knowledge and info you guys continue to provide. Now im gonna try to fit in all the required information i can in this post and do forgive me if i miss out on something. ----------------------------- Here ive got a somewht rough diagram of my garage and an attached bedroom with a bathroom and i plan on using this entire area which is not too large but i suppose usable if designed well Wht i want to let you guys kno first is that im from India and unlike the US or Canada most houses here are built of solid brick and Concrete with a layer of plaster to finish it off usually and so is my house. The walls in the diagram are al 5 " thick without the final coat of plaster as the house is in its constructional phase which is also why i think this would be the best time to start planning my build as i should be starting construction in about a weeks time. 1] Floor - The garage floor isnt laid yet but i can tell you now its going to be a Concrete reinforced floor. The floor though has already been laid in the attached room and i plan on not floating my floor as it is the ground floor and already concrete!! Do let me know wht ur thoughts are on this. 2] Walls - as ive told you are Brick and concrete the outside wall is 10" thick and all the other inside walls are 5" . Now i wanted to ask if building the second inside wall which would be my second Leaf could also be made of brick and concrete as for me over here it is the cheapest option and i suppose it would provide a good isolation and i dont plan on using any Insulation in between the two walls so basically heavy mass - air - and Mass . Do u think i would be running into any problems with this choice . 3] I do plan on using this studio commercially eventually and upgrading equipment also . Maybe to a surround setup soon. but i do want to start with a stereo setup for now and preferably a vocal booth and a live room (Both not too big). As for the music i mostly make elctronic music, i do a lot of indian classical and instrumental recordings for my World And Fusion Music projects and I am looking at recording Most styles Incuding Jazz/ Ethnic/ Folk/ Classical and Some rock But i dont think too much of the heavier harder stuff as it doesnt really interest me but again there might be the few occasional projects. I also want the studio to double up as a Dubbing and post Production Facility and a small lil setup for My Graphic Design Work. So my initial confusion here is just to first choose which room to do wht in. Also if it helps, I havent started The concrete floor in the Garage yet . Which is the first thing i do as soon an construction starts. So if theres any advice on tht it would be great. I just hope i havent made this too confusing and long :shock: :? and i do hope on getting some advice now before its too late and i make some stupid mistakes. I will also try and post some pics in a cpl of days of the rooms as they are SO u guys could get a better idea. Thanks in advance everyone :),

Hey everyone, Seasons greetings and all the best for the coming year :) firstly. Ok now im thinking i might have done something wrong to not have got a reply yet so im reposting the Sketchup plan this time for my two rooms and i think this is almost xactly to scale. Im gonna be visiting the site tomorrow so i could reconfirm the measurements and maybe post pics if u guys need. But do take a look and help me out with this if u guys can i would really appreciate some help on this as i plan on starting on the floor and acoustics beginning of the year maybe sooner if possible. The plan shows the existing walls and floor as is and ive decided on building the second inside walls using brick and plaster as it is much cheaper here to do so and my budget is limited. I would really appreciate some help on deciding which room to use as the studio and which one to use for the recording booth, how much air gap to leave between the new wall and existing walls and if i could do without the use of insulation in the air gap. I plan on laying a 9" - 12 " concrete floor in the larger room (Visible in the plan as 3' lower then the other rooms so any advice on the proper way to build this new floor would be great and also whether i build the inside walls on top of this new concrete floor i lay out for the larger room. I guess ill have a lot more question as time moves on and any help would be really great ppl. Thanks in Advance And Best Wishes

"Now i wanted to ask if building the second inside wall which would be my second Leaf could also be made of brick and concrete as for me over here it is the cheapest option and i suppose it would provide a good isolation and i dont plan on using any Insulation in between the two walls so basically heavy mass - air - and Mass . Do u think i would be running into any problems with this choice ." This is a tricky area. What can happen is the mortar creeps out of the joint, builds up and either piles up at the bottom and makes a hard connection, or it piles up until it creates a bridge that allows a hard connection between the two walls. OR Both! This is what the folks call a short circuit and makes the wall one leaf. The problem with building brick walls is they have to have something to attache to to keep them vertical. The only way around that is to build the wall so thick that it becomes a support to itself. As to the insulation in the air gap; you gain several points (STC) so it is always recommended. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm

Thanks for finaaly replying :) and for directing me towards tht. Id almst forgotten abt looking up STC values. Your link led me into doing a lil more research on google and i found some interesting info here http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/audible/al4.htm Double walls do seem like the way to go for me considering evrything and ill try and make sure tht they get constructed solid!! But i still have a cpl of doubts about which room i should use for wht purpose (Control room , studio, and maybe a small front office area in the bigger room). ANd also if i plan on building a concrete floor about 10" thick is there any particular way of isolating it tht i should keep in mind for when i meet the contractor. also if there was a way of best utilizing the golden ratio principle while designing these rooms. I have given the estimated measurements on the previous Jpeg file and the sketchup image is too scale as well. Looking forward to the advice, Cheers

Your link led me into doing a lil more research on google and i found some interesting info here http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/audible/al4.htm

Interesting link, but curiously it does not show the best wall of all, and the one that is recommended on this forum tirelessly: double stud wall, with independant stud frames separated by an air gap of at least a couple of inches, two (or more) layers of sheetrock on the OUTSIDES of the stud frames, and the air cavity packed full of rock wool or fiberglass insulation.

ANd also if i plan on building a concrete floor about 10" thick is there any particular way of isolating it that i should keep in mind for when i meet the contractor.

Ten inches of solid reinforced concrete? That's going to give you pretty decent isolation all by itself. But if you do want to isolate even more, then just make sure that your contractor does not connect the slabe to anything else! Pour it directly on grade (plus usual code requirements), build your inner walls ONLY on top of that slab, and your outer wall on a SEPARATE foundation that is not connected to the floor slab at all. In other words, leave a gap between them, and make sure that nothing at all bridges that gap. Not even a nail. But the best advise of all is to buy Rod's book, read it carefully, and take into account everything he says. In his book, he shows you exactly how to build the floor you are talking about, among many other things. - Stuart -

Hey guys!! Hope you guys have a great new year. Im back with i think my last question before i jump into construction on my interiors on the 5th of this month hopefully. Heres a plan i drew up on sketchup!! should give u a good idea including dimensions. Was thinking whether this is possible and a good idea and should i go ahead with it ?? Im using the one garage instead of the two rooms i posted earlier and i would really appreciate it if any of you could tell me whether this is possible or not. Also another question i couldnt quite find an adequate answer to is if i have my existing walls made of brick and plaster as i mentioned earlier and i build my internal wallls with sheetrock would one layer of 1/2" gypsum with mineral wool filling with a 4" air gap between walls all around give me a good isolation?? How much would it be around with this option ? or does it make more sense for me to leave a two inch air gap with mineral wool and build a 3" brick wall all around ? Do let me know if this plan with these dimensions will work ? Im a lil concerned abt it!! Thanks again guys :) CHeers, Ankit

Hi Ankit. Happy New Year to you too! Those are really small rooms you have there. I'm not sure how functional they'll be, and you don't even show the positions and swing of the doors. Would it not be better to forget one of those rooms, and just build two that are slightly larger? Even better would be to use that other room as well. Make the garage your control room, and the other room your live room. Or vice versa. Don't forget that your walls are going to be many inches thick, taking out even more space and once you allow or doors swinging open and closed, you are left with really tiny usable space. Plus, your mix positions seems to be at very nearly 50% of your room. OK, your rear wall is actually a corner and two diagonals, so it's hard to tell for sure.

Also another question i couldnt quite find an adequate answer to is if i have my existing walls made of brick and plaster as i mentioned earlier and i build my internal wallls with sheetrock would one layer of 1/2" gypsum with mineral wool filling with a 4" air gap between walls all around give me a good isolation??

That depends! How much isolation do you need? How loud are you? How quite does it have to be outside your room? Are there any exterior noise sources that you need to block, such as roads, airports, railway lines, noisy neighbors, etc.? Sound goes both ways: you want to stop bad stuff getting in, not just your good stuff going out. Personally, I'd go with at least two layers of 5/8 gypsum board on the inner leaf. And make sure that your outer leaf brick and plaster wall is well sealed.

or does it make more sense for me to leave a two inch air gap with mineral wool and build a 3" brick wall all around ?

If you have the extra money, and can build that brick wall VERY CAREFULLY, so that nothing falls inside the cavity that would bridge the gap and causing flanking, then sure, brick would be good too. It's much denser than gypsum board. But it all depends on what you need, in terms of isolation. How loud are you? How much do you need to block? That means getting out your sound level meter, playing loud music and loud pink noise on the room, and taking real measurements inside and outside your room, to see how loud you are, and how much you need to isolate. You need real numbers. Designing a room by guesswork is not a good idea. Either you won't have enough isolation, and will need to tear it down and re-build, or you'll have too much isolation, which is good but it means you spent much more money than you needed to. Take real measurements, and then start designing. And only when your design is totally complete and triple-checked, only then start building. Not before, no matter how great the temptation... Nobody can help answer your questions above without having real decibel numbers to work with.

Do let me know if this plan with these dimensions will work ? Im a lil concerned abt it!!

Me too! It looks small. - Stuart -

Hey guys, Been a while but i thought id rather take my time making the right decisions then jump into something without thinking abt it. So heres a quick question. Im planning on using the two rooms now and im gonna get the wall dividing the two rooms removed prior to laying my concrete floor in the garage. What is the minimum acceptable amount of gap i should leave between my new concrete floor and the exisitng walls of the garage. Im thinking abt 1/2". Also after removing the middle wall i have a bigger room dimension with uneven floors so two things: A) should i ask the contractor to make a 1/2" gap in the existing floor in the second room to decouple it from the wall and so tht the gap can be in sync with the new floor i lay in the garage and essentially i get one big room with a isolated concrete floor and then i start my second design phase to incorporate the various rooms. B) should i level out both the floors the new and the old in such a way so that they are both even. which would make the room height 8" ( Im concerned abt how low the room would become after i construct the second ceiling). would it be an acceptable amount? Thats all for now. Am really looking for some more constructive or destructive feedback and any help possible. I wanna get a major amount of construction finished by the end of the month. Thanks

Hey Guys, Been a few days and ive got basic groundwork started on the studio. Breaking a cpl of walls making more space. Ive decied to build two rooms and have a drawn up a sketch to show wht i have in mind. Its a slightly larger file so heres the link:- http://www.sendspace.com/file/bq7i7p I really need some encouragement and advice here cause i like wht ive come up with but i do want to put it by you guys first. ok.. so now this is wht is happening - 1) im laying a 2 foot concrete floor in the garage to match the level of the sideroom. then im pushing the wall separating the garage from the room back so i have one big room. Im also making sure the new reinforced floor is decoupled from the existing walls by 12 mm and the reinfocred floor that already exists in the new section of the room (after the wall being pushed back as that floor had been built earlier) will also have a 12mm channel dug outall the way so that it forms one continuous decoupled floor. 2) the room in the sketchup file is to scale and the walls that have been rendered in brick are going to be brick and plaster walls as per the thickness in the model. and the dividing wall for the studio and control room is basically a wall with two layers of gypsum on either side with a 3 " gap in between ( So i suppose i have to use 2 x 3 studs [wooden] to build this wall ). 3) I plan on using the exchange chamber Idea in rod's book to aircondition and vent so i would also really appreciate some advice here on how to incorporate a relatively simple and cheap method of the concept using the corridoor as the exchange gamber and also to lay the piping for the vent in so i can have a quiet comfortable place to work in. 4) Have some ideas about the doors and window as well bt wanna get to that later. I dont know if i can think of anything i missed out now so ill post if i remember something but do take a look at the model and throw me any suggestions. It would be really great . Thanks all :) PS - heres a pic of the model.

1) im laying a 2 foot concrete floor in the garage to match the level of the sideroom.

Wow! That will get you some pretty decent isolation, for sure!

the room in the sketchup file is to scale and the walls that have been rendered in brick are going to be brick and plaster walls as per the thickness in the model.

that will also get you good isolation. But do take note of what xSpace said! You need to be VERY careful with building those brick walls, to make CERTAIN that no mortar leaks out the back of the bricks and falls, to cause "bridges" between the two layers. Very important. Otherwise, all of your hard work will be for nothing.

and the dividing wall for the studio and control room is basically a wall with two layers of gypsum on either side with a 3 " gap in between ( So i suppose i have to use 2 x 3 studs [wooden] to build this wall ).

Doing it the way you describe is a bad idea. You MUST decouple the two sides of the wall. If not, then putting two layers of sheetrock on each side is pointless, and a waste of money. I'd suggest that you make the wall much thicker. I'd go for two sets of studs, each 2x4, with a 2 inch gap between them. Just using a single set of 2x3 studs will NOT decouple your wall. In other words, it won't work! - Stuart -

Thanks a lot Stuart for taking the time and all the great advice uve given me but now i do think ive run into a problem as im lilited with th amount of space i have and the amount i can give up and obviously i do also want a fairly decent amount of isolation between the booth and the studio. Soo.... what could my options be ? a) i dont know for sure but i will find out if possible . but if it is does it make sense to build a concrete reinforced wall about 2" thick on either side of a 2" airgap. and i guess i could also build both the rooms on a sepreately isolated floor from each other. b) a slightly scaled down version of a staggered frame wall using 2 x 3 studs. Or anything else. ummm dont know. Really need help here as its one of the problem areas now i think if it wont work. SO any suggestions anyone on how i can have a decent isolation while also keeping the recording booth size around the dimensions it is now so i could track a drumkit if i needed to in there. on another note i was also wondring if it makes sense to lay the pies for the wiring of the room in the floor that is being built or does it make more sense to run it in between the walls. Thanks again:)

Ankit, your second best possibility is staggered studs on common bottom and top plates. For example, you could do 2x8 bottom / top plates with staggered 2x4 studs on them, or if you are REALLY short on space, then you could go to 2x6 plates with 2x4 studs on them. But I wouldn't go less than that. 2x6 top and bottom, plus two layers of 5/8 sheetrock on each side will make your wall roughly 8" thick. I don't think you can go less than that and still keep good isolation. Your third choice would be a 2x4 stud wall with resilient channel on one side, but that is only going to save you about an inch, and will cost you several dB in isolation.

a) i dont know for sure but i will find out if possible . but if it is does it make sense to build a concrete reinforced wall about 2" thick on either side of a 2" airgap

That would work, but the expense is pretty high, and it will still be six inches thick, overall. That's about the same thickness as the "third choice" wall above, but much more expensive to build. Of course, it would also be a better isolator. Maybe someone else here has some better advice to give you.

on another note i was also wondring if it makes sense to lay the pies for the wiring of the room in the floor that is being built or does it make more sense to run it in between the walls.

If you have all that concrete in your floor, then sure! Put your cable ducts in the concrete! Just make them big, and figure out how to seal them, so sound doesn't travel down them. - Stuart -

Ok!! So ive officially started construction on my studio. Here are a few pics of the clay/brick/reinforced concrete isolated floor being layed. After this therell be another 1 1/2" layer of steel mesh reinforced concrete to be poured and laminated wood flooring on top of that after the walls have been constructed. PICS: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/i- ... directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-_ ... directlink wiring ducts being layed below the floor. http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/P5 ... directlink Concrete floor being poured. On another note i was wondering (in order to save some space) if i am building interior brick walls 3and a half inch thick after plaster do i really need a 3 " gap as i planed earlier all around between the outer and inner brick walls or do u think a 2" gap would do well ? Will update with more pics soon. CHeers

hows it going guys, Ive been on here for a while now and have got some very constructive advice from a cpl of ppl on this forum but i dont uderstand why anyone else wouldnt be interested in giving any feedback so i could atleast know if im headed in the right direction. IF ive offended the ppl on this forum by nt doing something i apologize but i was only hoping on getting to know some of you and get some help on y project cause im definately not someone whose been designing studios for the major part of my life but as i get more and more into it i love the feeling of being able to do something like this and work around any problems that come up. It feels great. I just dont understand wether no ones saying anything cause they dont know how to deal with brick or is it just cause maybe u arent interested since in your part of the world u do most of ur work with timber and gyprock. Wel despite all that i think it would be an interesting learning curve for me and for anyone elese whod be interested cause i figured getting a good sound in a brick room could be challenging but i guess it could be good also. SO here i am now with a decent amount of construction done on my room(all the outside walls and plaster[forgot to take my cam, will post pics tom]) and before i put up my inside brick and concrete walls up i was wondering wether i do need to insulate the airgap with rockwool. Would it affect the sound inside the room in anyway and if yes wht would be a good thickness and density to go with? As of nw im considering 1" thick rockwool slabs with a density of 64kgcmcube to go in between the walls which have an airgap of approx 3". Do let me know wht you guys think. Im really in need of some advice and maybe some encouragement if possible. If theres anymore info i can provide pls do ask guys. Ive just not seen too much around on studios constructed mostly out of brick and concrete so there is really nowhere else i can learn from except you guys whove been doing this for a while. Hope to hear from a few more of you. and from you stuart as always :) Cheers

thats a very interesting way to lay a floor. I'd like to the final result! Your floor plan is looking better. remember the listening triangle from speakers to your head position. Might have to move the desk back in th eroom.

Hey Ppl, Sorry Ive been away for a while and not posted my progress on the build but i was completely immersed in the construction process so far. I promise to post pics in a cpl of days of wht ive acheieved so far. The construction of the walls (Brick and concrete) Both exterior and interior with a 3" + air gap all around and rockwool insulation is done next is the installation of the doors and studio to control room window which should be under way soon and the second leaf of the ceiling is next in line which is why im looking for some desperate advice at this point as i plan on using something similar to rod's exchange chamber concept for My AC and Venting. I plan on building a box like structure in front of the window AC unit in the diagram to act as the exchange chamber. Ive Uploaded a rough Diagram of wht i propose to do for the AirCon. though i havent shown a provision for the Return air in the diagram i was hoping u guys could help me with that. Ive decided on using flexible ducting lined with aluminium covered rockwool for the AC and the return air ( 8" and 6" in Diameter respectively for the two) So here are the cpl of questions i relly need some help with: 1] If i plan on laying the ducting for the Ac the way i propose to in the diagram then does it make sense for the AC Vent to come out through the ceiling and wont that affect the Functionality of the MAM design of the ceiling ( I plan on having a 1" thick plasterboard Ceiling under the already exisitng Concrete Reinforced ceiling present). Also if i cut through the walls for the vent it still affects the MAM design of the wall ( and i was trying to avoid cutting through the wall as they are brick and plaster ( i would rather go through the ceiling for the AC vent ) But i would also rather do wht gives me better isolation and less sacrifice on the acoustical side of things. 2] I am also slightly confused as to how i should place my Exhaust Vents and where ( again should i cut through the walls for these) i want them to be at a higher point in the wall so that it can pull out the stale warm air. Heres a link to the Sketchup file as it was slightly larger than allowed:- http://www.sendspace.com/file/77uo8z These are the 2 Things im most concerned about and id really apreciate some help on it. Note - both the rooms are buil on isolated concrete slabs with their own respective walls ( Not shown in the diagram) Thanks in advance for everything, CHeers

Ok so guys i desperately need to know!! Through the wall or through the ceiling. Itd be reaaly helpfull cause thats whats gonna have to be decided as soon as possible so construction can happen in the next cpl of days. Took some lousy shots of the rooms but am gonna post them anyways to show u whts happened so far. Cpl oh hours and i think ill have them with me to put up. But please let me know wht u think abt where i should get the ducting through?? the walls or the ceiling and where and how i could also place the exhaust vents. CHeers

The little bit I know about air con in an enclosed studio environment is that you have air coming in and air being taken out from each and every room. Rod's book has very good detail on this. So you should get back into that book and get a real good handle on the overall system. What you may require is more time to understand what it is you are doing in order to not short out your build with flanking from duct work, leaks from poor install or an exchange system that neither gives enough fresh air or extracts at the proper rate. This is even more difficult then the building of the structure was.

yea i think i should get back into the book for a bit. And i think i know wht u mean cause this does feel like its gonna be much more difficult than building the structure was. My problem area though mainly is that i just have one side of the wall i can use in both rooms for the ducting and that is the side adjoining the corridor where the AC is fitted and since i have just that one wall which is roughly 7ft wide in both rooms and i dont wanna run into any problems with the exhaust duct and the AC duct being close to each other. So ill make sure i go throght the chapter on HVAC more thoroughly but in the mean time all advice is very welcome and assuring :) Thank you :)

To me, it isn't so much a question of do you put a hole in the wall or do you put a hole in the ceiling. Any where that you make a hole in your structure is going to be an issue. But these things have all been considered and many threads here by many people just like you, here @ johnlsayers.com, show baffles and ducting and all the trouble that these guys have gone through to make an air tight room that is capable of giving and taking air. So it can be done and you can do it too, is all I'm saying :)

Hello once again, Am back with another query and looking for the everusual helpful advice from you folks here. Im moving onto the ceiling now and came by an interesting product here in India so just wanted to put it across and get some feedback on wether its a good idea to use for my studio ceiling. Its available in 24mm and 30mm thicknesses and id be looking at the 30mm if i went for it. http://www.amfceilings.co.uk/product.as ... section=17 Thats the link!! and the specs: http://www.amfceilings.co.uk/specs/Samp ... B%2043.pdf It also has somewht of a description of their installation method which i was wondering if someone could explain to me and wether it is a good method to install the ceiling!! Thank you guys :) Cheers